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Another rant

Xen


After a power outage I think the lvm cache was in a bad state, did not
repair itself, and caused trouble.

But I'm not sure.

I couldn't troubleshoot it because I couldn't sudo.

But because I don't have time for that I'm back in Windows.



I went into the rescue environment of kernel 4.8.

You get this nice blue menu that look really good.

But rather after systemd messages start washing across the screen.

They are gone for a while and you can enter a shell and think about what
to do.



Then the systemd messages return and the entire system hangs with a tty
overflow message somewhere on the screen.



That is supposed to be the "rescue" environment,

from which most of the time you need to be rescued *from*.

*shakes head once more*.

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Re: Another rant

Liam Proven
On 16 November 2017 at 15:46, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> After a power outage I think the lvm cache was in a bad state, did not
> repair itself, and caused trouble.
>
> But I'm not sure.
>
> I couldn't troubleshoot it because I couldn't sudo.
>
> But because I don't have time for that I'm back in Windows.
>
>
>
> I went into the rescue environment of kernel 4.8.
>
> You get this nice blue menu that look really good.
>
> But rather after systemd messages start washing across the screen.
>
> They are gone for a while and you can enter a shell and think about what to
> do.
>
>
>
> Then the systemd messages return and the entire system hangs with a tty
> overflow message somewhere on the screen.
>
>
>
> That is supposed to be the "rescue" environment,
>
> from which most of the time you need to be rescued *from*.
>
> *shakes head once more*.

That sounds nasty. My sympathies.

FWIW, a few observations:

I am old and grumpy. Computers are tools for me now, more than toys.
This means I want the minimum of playing around. (I have other,
dedicated computers for that.)

So I want the least hassle. This used to be mean Ubuntu. But Ubuntu
has dropped the one FOSS desktop that I really liked, Unity, and
replaced it with the one I dislike the most -- GNOME 3.

So I am exploring alternatives. So far, Xfce sucks the least. But if I
use Xfce, then there's no reason to stay on Ubuntu.

So I've been experimenting. It runs well on OpenSUSE and while it's
still not a small distro, with Xfce, it's relatively slim on modern
hardware. E.g. it ran well on a Core 2 Duo with 4GB of RAM, a low-end
machine these days.

I've now wiped it. That machine currently triple-boots IBM PC DOS 7,
Haiku and Devuan. I am working on adding OS/2, AROS and Oberon A2.

You might enjoy Devuan. It's Debian without systemd. I find it works
well. With LXDE it is small, light and fast.


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Re: Another rant

Teresa e Junior
Em 16/11/2017 13:54, Liam Proven escreveu:

> So I am exploring alternatives. So far, Xfce sucks the least. But if I
> use Xfce, then there's no reason to stay on Ubuntu.
>
> So I've been experimenting. It runs well on OpenSUSE and while it's
> still not a small distro, with Xfce, it's relatively slim on modern
> hardware. E.g. it ran well on a Core 2 Duo with 4GB of RAM, a low-end
> machine these days.
>
> I've now wiped it. That machine currently triple-boots IBM PC DOS 7,
> Haiku and Devuan. I am working on adding OS/2, AROS and Oberon A2.

I've used Debian for more than 7 years, and tried using openSUSE too for
some time.

My experience with openSUSE was that it is a lot less stable than
Debian/Ubuntu. They have a variety of nice tools not found in Debian
land, but bugs were much more constant, to the point of being very
frustrating.

Debian, on the other hand, is stable, but lacks many things that Ubuntu
adds, like PPAs, fully working meta-packages, etc. Besides, many times I
found myself with software containing packages for Ubuntu but not for
Debian. I had to compile a lot of stuff by myself. Also, I don't find
Ubuntu to be less stable than Debian.

Xubuntu is generally very stable and comes with good defaults. In my
opinion, it is the best Xfce distro today. Installing Xfce on Debian
always required a lot more configuration and maintenance from my part.
It may use a few MB less of RAM, but at the end of the day, a single
browser tab will use a lot more than that!

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Re: Another rant

Liam Proven
On 16 November 2017 at 17:41, Teresa e Junior <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've used Debian for more than 7 years, and tried using openSUSE too for
> some time.
>
> My experience with openSUSE was that it is a lot less stable than
> Debian/Ubuntu. They have a variety of nice tools not found in Debian land,
> but bugs were much more constant, to the point of being very frustrating.

That's interesting. I work for SUSE these days, so I would welcome
pointers of anything you can reproduce. I will find who to feed the
information to so that they can rectify it.

I run it on my work PCs, obviously, and I have no significant problems
with it. There are features of APT/Synaptic that I miss, but mostly,
it works well.

> Debian, on the other hand, is stable, but lacks many things that Ubuntu
> adds, like PPAs, fully working meta-packages, etc. Besides, many times I
> found myself with software containing packages for Ubuntu but not for
> Debian. I had to compile a lot of stuff by myself. Also, I don't find Ubuntu
> to be less stable than Debian.

Agreed, on all counts. However, between GNOME 3, systemd and other
things, it is putting me off a little.

I was surprised by how complete Devuan was, and how little work it was
to get installed and running. A complete current install, logged in to
the Xfce desktop, with a Wifi connection and everything, takes under
250MB of RAM, which is fairly good these days.

> Xubuntu is generally very stable and comes with good defaults. In my
> opinion, it is the best Xfce distro today. Installing Xfce on Debian always
> required a lot more configuration and maintenance from my part. It may use a
> few MB less of RAM, but at the end of the day, a single browser tab will use
> a lot more than that!

I'd probably mostly agree with that, too, and it's a possible future OS for me.

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Re: Another rant

Xen
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
Liam Proven schreef op 16-11-2017 16:54:

> That sounds nasty. My sympathies.
>
> FWIW, a few observations:
>
> I am old and grumpy. Computers are tools for me now, more than toys.
> This means I want the minimum of playing around. (I have other,
> dedicated computers for that.)

Even though compared to you I am young I have definitely reached the age
where I constantly say "I am too old for this" when I run into the same
hassle I had when I was 15.

When I was 15 I had time to learn.

But now it's not learning, but just facing the same trouble time and
time again, all over again, in just slightly different variations.

You'd hope stuff would improve or that your life would become more
solid.

But during the 2000s Linux distros were pretty calm and well maintained.

Now everyone rushes to the next big thing and doesn't actually finish
what they start....



I just tried to upgrade LVM2 to a version from Yakkety ;-). That used to
work just fine, but my system doesn't boot anymore now.

I don't know why because my system doesn't show boot messages anymore
anyway since I installed 16.04.3 so I cannot troubleshoot and I don't
get an initrd prompt.

Luckily I had a 4.8 initrd that still booted because update-initramfs -u
doesn't update it automatically.

Saved me the not-so-proverbial usb live boot.

Peculiar that an LVM upgrade ruins things; I diffed the initramfs's and
there was no difference in boot scripts, no difference in configuration,
the binaries only differed and that was everything.

So very peculiar that an upgrade in what amounts to libdevmapper would
kill my system...

...but because /tmp is not persistent, I cannot check back....

Love ............. all those changes.








(Who the hell uses /var/tmp, that is too far away to be useful).

(Why don't they just dump the non-persistent stuff in /run/tmp and leave
us the directory?)




Stranger still is that while my scripts failed to get this system
running, I constantly got initrd prompts, but now nothing.

How can the initrd fail so hard that it won't even load all because of
LVM?

But this is annoying because the version in 16.04 is really old.




> So I am exploring alternatives. So far, Xfce sucks the least. But if I
> use Xfce, then there's no reason to stay on Ubuntu.

I'm still on KDE... but I actually wanted to install Unity but I
couldn't download another image.

I mean, 16.04 is the last real Unity image.

17.04 had a preview of Unity 8.

17.10 had it removed.

18.04 will just be Gnome 3.

Fact is KDE will stay the same and as long as they don't upgrade another
major version it can only improve over time.

Akonadi is useless and I have never used Baloo and the search features
are pointless for me.

KMail never works, and the rest of it also seems pointless. Activities
are worthless too.

But the base system still works as shabby as it may be.

Dolphin is not great but doable.

If only they fixed the eternal samba problems.

Then Linux would be a bit usable.

But autofs doesn't work very well with samba (it's buggy) and
libpam-mount is too primitive and user-unfriendly to be useful.

The Gnome distributions solve it with Gnome.

And seem to do better than others.

I never liked /media and I barely use it.

Too far away, too random, and even if it is persistent because of labels
it never feels persistent at all...

So the only real solution I guess in Linux given the root structure is:

a) GUI access only in a nice way
b) additional root structures like in Windows ;-).

(why not)

c) something I wanted to create to at least make access easier ;-).


> So I've been experimenting. It runs well on OpenSUSE and while it's
> still not a small distro, with Xfce, it's relatively slim on modern
> hardware. E.g. it ran well on a Core 2 Duo with 4GB of RAM, a low-end
> machine these days.

OpenSUSE is/was always pretty well done with many more system management
consolidation solutions.

Ie. yast.

It also has a much more busy mailing list... :-/.



> I've now wiped it. That machine currently triple-boots IBM PC DOS 7,
> Haiku and Devuan.

Pff...

> I am working on adding OS/2, AROS and Oberon A2.
>
> You might enjoy Devuan. It's Debian without systemd. I find it works
> well. With LXDE it is small, light and fast.

Because I cannot depend on Debian solely for my desktop O.S. I find that
I still have to invest in SystemD, so I have not gone the Devuan
approach yet, but I am happy they exist.

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Re: Another rant

Liam Proven
On 16 November 2017 at 18:36, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Even though compared to you I am young

Ha!

50 now. I find it hard to believe.

> I have definitely reached the age
> where I constantly say "I am too old for this" when I run into the same
> hassle I had when I was 15.

Well, yes, exactly.

> I just tried to upgrade LVM2 to a version from Yakkety ;-). That used to
> work just fine, but my system doesn't boot anymore now.

This is odd. Your response, which was to my reply to you, seems to
have appeared in Teresa's thread.

Anyway, you probably won't like this, but my comment is simply this.

For the most part, I have few problems with multi-booting lots of
OSes. This is because I follow a few simple guidelines, and among
these is that I restrict myself to simple, MS-DOS/NT3 compatible
partitioning schemes.

That means: one primary boot partition, with DOS or some form of WinNT
in it. Even though I don't normally use them, they are extremely
useful for emergencies, BIOS reflashing and so on.

Then, *only* if needed by non-DOS/Windows/Linux OSes such as *BSD, no
more than a max of 2 primary partitions for those OSes.

Then a single extended partition containing logical drives for Linux
and any other OSes happy to run in logical drives.

This means:

* no encryption
* no LVM -- not Linux LVM, not Windows Dynamic Drives/Storage Spaces etc.

I have tried multiple versions of all these sorts of technologies and
I find them more trouble than they are worth.

I realise this doesn't work for everyone but it helps me to keep life simple.

KDE violates the keep-it-simple principle. I have 1 box currently that
runs KDE and I find it impossible to configure in a way I am
comfortable with. Single vertical panel in deskbar style -- vertical
panel, horizontal contents: https://imgur.com/a/fLeAy .


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Re: Another rant

Teresa e Junior
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
Em 16/11/2017 14:49, Liam Proven escreveu:
> That's interesting. I work for SUSE these days, so I would welcome
> pointers of anything you can reproduce. I will find who to feed the
> information to so that they can rectify it.

That was around three years ago. I'm happy if things have improved, but
at the time I gave up on running it as a desktop for things that didn't
work as expected, and also on SUSE Studio, after its images would refuse
to boot.

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Re: Another rant

Xen
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
Liam Proven schreef op 16-11-2017 18:56:

> On 16 November 2017 at 18:36, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Even though compared to you I am young
>
> Ha!
>
> 50 now. I find it hard to believe.
>
>> I have definitely reached the age
>> where I constantly say "I am too old for this" when I run into the
>> same
>> hassle I had when I was 15.
>
> Well, yes, exactly.

One of the problems I have is that even though I am becoming much more
experienced in Linux, they are changing stuff faster than I can keep up
with.

I am also not great with learning existing configuration tools in the
sense of automation scripts, so I write my own.

I mean I now have a simple manifest system and I go to the root
directory of it and I run "make" or "sudo make".

It will read all directories that have a "manifest" file and execute the
file referenced in it.

So almost all of my system configuration is now done automatically.

The last thing I added was a cron job to remove the hideous systemd
daemon tmp directories in /tmp.

They have their "private tmp" directories now that are empty and just
sitting there and not being cleaned up.

1) why not private mount spaces per process so I don't have to see them?
Oh yeah that requires mounts.

2) why not in /run/tmp? It's not like they are putting anything
persistent there.


>> I just tried to upgrade LVM2 to a version from Yakkety ;-). That used
>> to
>> work just fine, but my system doesn't boot anymore now.
>
> Anyway, you probably won't like this

There's nothing not to like about it and I know I always do experimental
stuff




but I am also interested in making these changes persistent.

I like developing that stuff.

However it's not getting easier and now I am not getting boot messages
anymore maybe because the system boots too fast but I think it's because
of changes.

I don't have a zillion friends who can teach or show me the stuff they
have learned.

Learning Linux all by yourself is pretty hard.

But Linux channels are usually too hostile for me to be able to meet
friends there.




For instance whenever you are having a friendly chat you are instantly
shoved off into some offtopic channel where the conversation doesn't
pick up again.


> For the most part, I have few problems with multi-booting lots of
> OSes. This is because I follow a few simple guidelines, and among
> these is that I restrict myself to simple, MS-DOS/NT3 compatible
> partitioning schemes.


> That means: one primary boot partition, with DOS or some form of WinNT
> in it. Even though I don't normally use them, they are extremely
> useful for emergencies, BIOS reflashing and so on.


> Then, *only* if needed by non-DOS/Windows/Linux OSes such as *BSD, no
> more than a max of 2 primary partitions for those OSes.

Can you even boot Windows 10 from a logical partition?

> Then a single extended partition containing logical drives for Linux
> and any other OSes happy to run in logical drives.
>
> This means:
>
> * no encryption
> * no LVM -- not Linux LVM, not Windows Dynamic Drives/Storage Spaces
> etc.
>
> I have tried multiple versions of all these sorts of technologies and
> I find them more trouble than they are worth.

The annoying part is that usually in kuch Windows it is a breeze to get
it running and stable too.




In Linux it remains experimental forever.

But that's mostly because many Linux people and developers are hostile
to user friendliness.

If you even suggest something that would be user friendly they become
hostile.



If you actually do it yourself they don't like it either.

They want Linux to be spartan.







> I realise this doesn't work for everyone but it helps me to keep life
> simple.
>
> KDE violates the keep-it-simple principle. I have 1 box currently that
> runs KDE and I find it impossible to configure in a way I am
> comfortable with. Single vertical panel in deskbar style -- vertical
> panel, horizontal contents: https://imgur.com/a/fLeAy .

You said that.

One dedicated person can achieve more user friendliness than a 1000
coding monkeys fighting Git and arguing about what needs to be done.

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Re: Another rant

Xen
In reply to this post by Teresa e Junior
Teresa e Junior schreef op 16-11-2017 19:04:
> Em 16/11/2017 14:49, Liam Proven escreveu:
>> That's interesting. I work for SUSE these days, so I would welcome
>> pointers of anything you can reproduce. I will find who to feed the
>> information to so that they can rectify it.
>
> That was around three years ago. I'm happy if things have improved,
> but at the time I gave up on running it as a desktop for things that
> didn't work as expected, and also on SUSE Studio, after its images
> would refuse to boot.

Personally I just hated the scaled gecko background that I couldn't get
rid of.

The shifting one.




It was in the grub background.

It was in the initrd background.

It was in the desktop manager session.

It was in the desktop itself.

I could only change the one in the desktop.

It was hell.

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Re: Another rant

Liam Proven
On 16 November 2017 at 19:51, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Personally I just hated the scaled gecko background that I couldn't get rid
> of.
>
> The shifting one.

There are a bunch of packages called opensuse-x-branding or something
like that. Remove them, install the upstream ones instead, and that
should be it.

> It was hell.

Barely even noticed it, myself!

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Re: Another rant

Xen
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
Liam Proven schreef op 16-11-2017 18:56:

> * no encryption
> * no LVM -- not Linux LVM, not Windows Dynamic Drives/Storage Spaces
> etc.

Oh now I realize why my system probably doesn't boot.

It's probably not LVM but an incompatible version of dmraid and
libdevmapper.

But I'm not so sure.

Hard to find version information.

They all seem the be the same version too.

Like Grub staying in 2.02beta for 6 years.

;-).

LVM does it too.

2.02.160 or something.

In 3000 years we will be in version 2.03.

Not sure why they do that.

But I guess I could try upgrading those packages too :-/.

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Re: Another rant

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Xen
On 16 November 2017 at 19:50, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> One of the problems I have is that even though I am becoming much more
> experienced in Linux, they are changing stuff faster than I can keep up
> with.

True.

> I am also not great with learning existing configuration tools in the sense
> of automation scripts, so I write my own.

Ah. Potential problem there.

> I mean I now have a simple manifest system and I go to the root directory of
> it and I run "make" or "sudo make".
>
> It will read all directories that have a "manifest" file and execute the
> file referenced in it.
>
> So almost all of my system configuration is now done automatically.

Sounds like something better done with a standard tool such as Ansible.

> There's nothing not to like about it and I know I always do experimental
> stuff

:-o

Fair enough!

> However it's not getting easier and now I am not getting boot messages
> anymore maybe because the system boots too fast but I think it's because of
> changes.

Remove 'quiet nosplash' from the kernel parameters. And you know dmesg, surely?

> I don't have a zillion friends who can teach or show me the stuff they have
> learned.
>
> Learning Linux all by yourself is pretty hard.
>
> But Linux channels are usually too hostile for me to be able to meet friends
> there.
>
> For instance whenever you are having a friendly chat you are instantly
> shoved off into some offtopic channel where the conversation doesn't pick up
> again.

Agreed, strongly.

Altho' OTOH I recently joined the FB Linux group, and OMG, it's full
of morons. Noisy opinionated morons.

> Can you even boot Windows 10 from a logical partition?

The bootloader has to go into a primary. I think the rest can go
elsewhere. I haven't tried; I stopped fighting its preferences many
years ago.

> The annoying part is that usually in kuch Windows it is a breeze to get it
> running and stable too.

"kuch"?

Often true, though.

> In Linux it remains experimental forever.

Often true. :-(

Until it's replaced with something else in 0.01x status.

> But that's mostly because many Linux people and developers are hostile to
> user friendliness.
>
> If you even suggest something that would be user friendly they become
> hostile.
>
> If you actually do it yourself they don't like it either.
>
> They want Linux to be spartan.

The thing is that the big driver is servers. Virtual servers, mainly.
If it isn't relevant to servers, a company won't throw much money or
many people at it, so it remains volunteer/hobbyist-driven and thus
suffers.

> You said that.
>
> One dedicated person can achieve more user friendliness than a 1000 coding
> monkeys fighting Git and arguing about what needs to be done.

Up to a point. Depends on the tools.

A wise person once said "building an entire OS in C is like
hand-building a 100 metre model of a toothpick out of toothpicks."

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Re: Another rant

Xen
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
Liam Proven schreef op 16-11-2017 20:28:

> On 16 November 2017 at 19:51, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Personally I just hated the scaled gecko background that I couldn't
>> get rid
>> of.
>>
>> The shifting one.
>
> There are a bunch of packages called opensuse-x-branding or something
> like that. Remove them, install the upstream ones instead, and that
> should be it.

Well I didn't know how to get support or how to do it.

>> It was hell.
>
> Barely even noticed it, myself!

Yes well some people don't notice the neon lights in Las Vegas because
they are used it it,



and some people who live by train tracks don't notice the trains
thundering by.

In the first book of Death Gate Cycle by Weis and Hickman there is a
people of dwarves living inside a machine.

When one of them falls inside a room that is sound proof, there is a
"thundering silence"

and he becomes scared as hell because he has never heard silence before.



More to the point people with cluster headache attacks cannot stand
light or sound.

What doesn't get on your nerves when you are healthy and strong can be
your death if you are already weak.

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Re: Another rant

Xen
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
Liam Proven schreef op 16-11-2017 20:33:
>> I am also not great with learning existing configuration tools in the
>> sense
>> of automation scripts, so I write my own.

> Ah. Potential problem there.

It's just that the learning curve of anything will always dwarf the
needs I have at any moment.

Also anything I acquire from someone else I can probably not easily
change.

So if I don't like something, I am stuck with it.

For me time spent not knowing something is time very badly spent.

If I create something myself the only thing I run into is bugs and time
developing, which is a process, and in a sense a pleasurable activity.

Running into roadblocks because I don't know how to do something that
was created by someone else is a draining experience, I mean this drains
my energy very quickly.


I am pretty adept in Bash and coding in other languages is also always
easy, what is not easy is using other people's dysfunctional APIs.

For instance Ansible is described as a deployment tool that activates
_other_ hosts.

My main requirement is not other hosts, but repeatable configuration on
the same host.

Time spent "deploying" is merely a git clone and I do not have a central
"hub" from which I can "infest" other hosts.

So even though I like all of the design goals of Ansible, the website is
just a typical corporate website that gives you the idea it is going to
be *very* complex.

Of course it is wonderful that you can deploy a new machine very
rapidly.

This is also my aim.

To capture the configuration of a machine so I won't ever have to do the
manual work again :p.




I rather spend time "saving" my progress while I am okay, then having to
redo it while I am in a rush.

So Ansible seems perfect but I might not even have a controlling
machine.

(Also it is yet another Red Hat product... :( ).



> Sounds like something better done with a standard tool such as Ansible.


> :-o
>
> Fair enough!
>
>> However it's not getting easier and now I am not getting boot messages
>> anymore maybe because the system boots too fast but I think it's
>> because of
>> changes.
>
> Remove 'quiet nosplash' from the kernel parameters.

Okay good point, but ESC always worked.

> And you know dmesg, surely?

Not useful if your system doesn't boot.

> Agreed, strongly.
>
> Altho' OTOH I recently joined the FB Linux group, and OMG, it's full
> of morons. Noisy opinionated morons.

The world is full of morons these days.

That didn't use to be the case.

I never experienced such a world before.

Either I know better what a moron is because I have become wiser myself,
or the world has changed.

I suspect the latter more... ;-).

Although I must say that I never knew




that people in general were this underdeveloped.

In their minds.


Even talking judges.

Public prosecutors.

Everyone dealing with anything.

Lawyers.






Stuff you are not told by the people who were supposed to tell you and
then later you read the "source" (law) yourself and you are amazed at
all the illegal stuff that has been happening.




The law is broken so many times each day.

And no one seems to notice.

I always say: the corruption always goes deeper than you think.




I have found that in general as a person you have more rights than the
people in power want you to know.

But the people that are supposed to defend you are sometimes dumb as
bricks.

If you call a government consumer support line or something like that,
you are told falsehoods.

The advice to fight for it or to go for it is almost never given.



>> Can you even boot Windows 10 from a logical partition?
>
> The bootloader has to go into a primary. I think the rest can go
> elsewhere. I haven't tried; I stopped fighting its preferences many
> years ago.

Me too.

>> The annoying part is that usually in kuch Windows it is a breeze to
>> get it
>> running and stable too.
>
> "kuch"?

Ehm. As a sense of saying something that some people here wouldn't like.


> Often true. :-(
>
> Until it's replaced with something else in 0.01x status.
>
>> But that's mostly because many Linux people and developers are hostile
>> to
>> user friendliness.
>>
>> If you even suggest something that would be user friendly they become
>> hostile.
>>
>> If you actually do it yourself they don't like it either.
>>
>> They want Linux to be spartan.
>
> The thing is that the big driver is servers. Virtual servers, mainly.
> If it isn't relevant to servers, a company won't throw much money or
> many people at it, so it remains volunteer/hobbyist-driven and thus
> suffers.

That's fine but that doesn't explain the spartanist attitude.

For instance there is an OpenSUSE guy who is big in servers or at least
good with it who typically thinks that more user friendliness is a need
somewhere at the end of the ladder when all other stuff has already been
dealt with.

And which thus will never happen because that's how things go.

He also appears to be "tone death" with regards to written communication
and often does not get what a person is saying even though other people
always know exactly what I or they mean.

This always then produces a sarcastic or cynical attitude on behalf of
that person who then blames me for not being "clearer" in what I say and
mean.

As in "If something comes across to me as incomprehensible or stupid,
it's probably because the other person is a moron, not because I don't
understand something."

This attitude in feeling superior even though this impression derives
from a lack of comprehension



is really pervasive among the Linux crowd, maybe because there are so
many technically inclined people, and not very socially inclined people.




So you are always fighting an uphill battle against people, or with
people, who are actually stupider than you, but they insist the problem
lies with you.





Which also happens in real life.



>> You said that.
>>
>> One dedicated person can achieve more user friendliness than a 1000
>> coding
>> monkeys fighting Git and arguing about what needs to be done.
>
> Up to a point. Depends on the tools.
>
> A wise person once said "building an entire OS in C is like
> hand-building a 100 metre model of a toothpick out of toothpicks."

Yes I wanted to say that this person also loves C and cannot see that...

I mean.




C is not user friendly.

No big surprise then that the system that derives from C is not user
friendly either,

that the attitudes of the people that work with C do not foster user
friendliness either,

and that overall a lack of user friendliness or usability is considered
"A Okay!"

C is a terrible language.

It is ugly.

It is error-prone.

So the software these people build is also error-prone, because they
give it the same user interface that C has.

Take the function strdupa().

Not only is that a cryptic word.







The manpage of strdupa(), which is a function that duplicates a string
for you while allocating memory for it on YOUR stack,



warns against its usage because it does not check for stack overflows,
and what's more, you cannot use it in a functional call chain,


because if you do:    funca( strdupa( funcb() ) ).

Then the memory for strdupa will be allocated on the call stack of
funca(),

causing this... actually I might be wrong here.

You cannot do funca(a, alloca(100), b)

or something of the kind causing the memory to be allocated on the call
stack for function funca().


In any case this shows clearly enough how confusing and corruptable this
system is.

And then these same people say "Bugs are not caused by the language,
they are proportional to lines of code."

The above is often my Linux experience ;-).

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Re: Another rant

Liam Proven
On 16 November 2017 at 21:31, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It's just that the learning curve of anything will always dwarf the needs I
> have at any moment.

IWKYM. But rolling-your-own often brings other problems.

> For instance Ansible is described as a deployment tool that activates
> _other_ hosts.
>
> My main requirement is not other hosts, but repeatable configuration on the
> same host.

Mine too. I'm investigating it. It can run perfectly well locally; a
friend uses it for configuring both home (Mac) and work (Lenovo,
Fedora) laptops. He maintains playbooks just for his own machines,
used a few times a year. He says it's worth it.

> Time spent "deploying" is merely a git clone and I do not have a central
> "hub" from which I can "infest" other hosts.

Easily solved.

> To capture the configuration of a machine so I won't ever have to do the
> manual work again :p.


Of course the problem with doing that is that you can capture
mis-config, crap you don't want, etc., as well.

> I rather spend time "saving" my progress while I am okay, then having to
> redo it while I am in a rush.

Well all do.

> So Ansible seems perfect but I might not even have a controlling machine.

Not needed.

> (Also it is yet another Red Hat product... :( ).

It is now. They bought it in. It's unrestricted FOSS AIUI.

> Okay good point, but ESC always worked.

Ah well.

> Not useful if your system doesn't boot.

:-D True!

> The world is full of morons these days.

Yep.

> That didn't use to be the case.
>
> I never experienced such a world before.

Me either.

> Either I know better what a moron is because I have become wiser myself, or
> the world has changed.

I think the real issue is that the soc.nets give /everyone/ online a
mouthpiece. They let everyone speak. Result, the idiots outnumber the
sensible. And in masses, we're all stupid and easily manipulated.

> I suspect the latter more... ;-).

;-)

> Although I must say that I never knew
> that people in general were this underdeveloped.
> In their minds.
>
>
> Even talking judges.
>
> Public prosecutors.
>
> Everyone dealing with anything.
>
> Lawyers.

IKWYM. But I think it was always so, but until cheap ubiquitous
broadband Internet, they had no way of speaking to the masses. Just
occasionally electing dangerous madmen.

Now, everyone can speak to the world. Most are only heard by a tiny
number, but collectively, in our billions, that means that the jumble
of voices occasionally coaslesces to something coherent... and mostly,
that is stupid and nasty and mean.

> Stuff you are not told by the people who were supposed to tell you and then
> later you read the "source" (law) yourself and you are amazed at all the
> illegal stuff that has been happening.

That too.

> The law is broken so many times each day.
>
> And no one seems to notice.
>
> I always say: the corruption always goes deeper than you think.

Which is the reason for the increasingly surveillance we're all under.

> I have found that in general as a person you have more rights than the
> people in power want you to know.

Yup.

> But the people that are supposed to defend you are sometimes dumb as bricks.

Yup.

> If you call a government consumer support line or something like that, you
> are told falsehoods.

Yes, but remember Hanlon's Razor. It's a very important rule.

>> The bootloader has to go into a primary. I think the rest can go
>> elsewhere. I haven't tried; I stopped fighting its preferences many
>> years ago.
>
> Me too.

It's the only way. Or the easiest way to be happy, anyway.

>>> The annoying part is that usually in kuch Windows it is a breeze to get
>>> it
>>> running and stable too.
>>
>>
>> "kuch"?
>
>
> Ehm. As a sense of saying something that some people here wouldn't like.

:-)

> That's fine but that doesn't explain the spartanist attitude.

Well, it does. If it's simple and it can be easily automated and it
does what you need inside a VM which only contains a single OS, then
you're good to go.

Servers don't dual-boot. Server OSes never have to share hardware.

> For instance there is an OpenSUSE guy who is big in servers or at least good
> with it who typically thinks that more user friendliness is a need somewhere
> at the end of the ladder when all other stuff has already been dealt with.

Do tell?

> And which thus will never happen because that's how things go.
>
> He also appears to be "tone death" with regards to written communication and
> often does not get what a person is saying even though other people always
> know exactly what I or they mean.
>
> This always then produces a sarcastic or cynical attitude on behalf of that
> person who then blames me for not being "clearer" in what I say and mean.
>
> As in "If something comes across to me as incomprehensible or stupid, it's
> probably because the other person is a moron, not because I don't understand
> something."

Sadly, it does happen, yes. It is what used to be said about Debian
people. Now things have changed there, but it's still a Linux world
problem.

> This attitude in feeling superior even though this impression derives from a
> lack of comprehension

*Nods sadly*

> is really pervasive among the Linux crowd, maybe because there are so many
> technically inclined people, and not very socially inclined people.
>
> So you are always fighting an uphill battle against people, or with people,
> who are actually stupider than you, but they insist the problem lies with
> you.
>
> Which also happens in real life.

Yes, yes and yes.

> Yes I wanted to say that this person also loves C and cannot see that...

[Stuff about C clipped]

Agreed with all of that. It's caused a whole world of problems, too.

> And then these same people say "Bugs are not caused by the language, they
> are proportional to lines of code."

That bit was over my head, but yes, I think you're right.

> The above is often my Linux experience ;-).

Mine too.

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Re: Another rant

Owen Thomas
On 17 November 2017 at 10:18, Liam Proven <[hidden email]> wrote:
IWKYM.

Huh? 

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Re: Another rant

Liam Proven
On 17 November 2017 at 01:03, Owen Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 17 November 2017 at 10:18, Liam Proven <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> IWKYM.
>
>
> Huh?

"I know what you mean".

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ikwym


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Re: Another rant

Tom H-4
In reply to this post by Xen
On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> After a power outage I think the lvm cache was in a bad state, did not
> repair itself, and caused trouble.
>
> But I'm not sure.
>
> I couldn't troubleshoot it because I couldn't sudo.
>
> But because I don't have time for that I'm back in Windows.
>
> I went into the rescue environment of kernel 4.8.
>
> You get this nice blue menu that look really good.
>
> But rather after systemd messages start washing across the screen.
>
> They are gone for a while and you can enter a shell and think about
> what to do.
>
> Then the systemd messages return and the entire system hangs with a
> tty overflow message somewhere on the screen.
>
> That is supposed to be the "rescue" environment,
>
> from which most of the time you need to be rescued *from*.

Do you have this problem is you set
"systemd.journald.max_level_console=0" and/or
"systemd.journald.max_level_wall=0" on the cmdline? (Or
"systemd.journald.forward_to_console=0" and/or
"systemd.journald.forward_to_wall=0".)

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Re: Another rant

Owen Thomas
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
okay... :) although you did transpose the What and the Know....

On 17 November 2017 at 11:13, Liam Proven <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 17 November 2017 at 01:03, Owen Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 17 November 2017 at 10:18, Liam Proven <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> IWKYM.
>
>
> Huh?

"I know what you mean".

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ikwym


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Re: Another rant

Liam Proven
On 17 November 2017 at 01:24, Owen Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:
> okay... :) although you did transpose the What and the Know....

Oh right! Sorry!

BTW: please bottom-post on the list. Thanks.

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