Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

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Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Andreas Schildbach-2
This time, I'll just post the bug numbers rather than writing a lengthy
report. From a users perspective, I can't tell that Flight 5 has changed
anything compared to Flight 2 besides some artwork.

I must admit that I'm a bit disappointed that none of my bugs since
Flight 2 have even been touched, let alone fixed (some have been
confirmed by other users though). I am beginning to have doubt about
filing bugs to that black hole called Malone...

However, here are the bugs I encountered:

https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/28769
https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/31233
https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/27202
https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/32804
https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/30802
https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/30803
https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/31990
https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/34953

Regards,

Andreas


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Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Lee Revell
On Tue, 2006-03-14 at 22:49 +0100, Andreas Schildbach wrote:

> This time, I'll just post the bug numbers rather than writing a lengthy
> report. From a users perspective, I can't tell that Flight 5 has changed
> anything compared to Flight 2 besides some artwork.
>
> I must admit that I'm a bit disappointed that none of my bugs since
> Flight 2 have even been touched, let alone fixed (some have been
> confirmed by other users though). I am beginning to have doubt about
> filing bugs to that black hole called Malone...
>
> However, here are the bugs I encountered:
>
> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/28769
> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/31233
> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/27202
> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/32804
> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/30802
> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/30803
> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/31990
> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/34953
>

You don't give nearly enough information for some of these.  Here is one
of the reports in its entirety:

"This is a regression from Breezy: On my Dell Latitude X1, using an
Intel i915GMS chip, glxinfo returns "direct rendering: No". OpenGL
screenblankers look very un-accelerated.

I am using a fresh install of Dapper Daily Feb-03."

Um - lsmod output?  dmesg?  X logs?  Etc...?

Others were only reported 2-4 weeks ago, and have probably not been
looked at yet due to limited developer resources.

Lee


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Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Lee Revell
In reply to this post by Andreas Schildbach-2
On Tue, 2006-03-14 at 22:49 +0100, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/31233

status fixreleased



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Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Sandis Neilands
In reply to this post by Lee Revell
Hello!

On 3/15/06, Lee Revell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, 2006-03-14 at 22:49 +0100, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
> You don't give nearly enough information for some of these.  Here is one
> of the reports in its entirety:
>
> "This is a regression from Breezy: On my Dell Latitude X1, using an
> Intel i915GMS chip, glxinfo returns "direct rendering: No". OpenGL
> screenblankers look very un-accelerated.
>
> I am using a fresh install of Dapper Daily Feb-03."
>
> Um - lsmod output?  dmesg?  X logs?  Etc...?
And in what wiki page/help doc are these mentioned? BTW for new bug
reporter having no answer for 2 - 4 weeks = devs don't care or this
project has to get it's act together.

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Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Lee Revell
On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 01:14 +0200, Sandis Neilands wrote:
> > Um - lsmod output?  dmesg?  X logs?  Etc...?
>
> And in what wiki page/help doc are these mentioned?

I assumed these were covered in the bug reporting guidelines but must
admit I did not check.

>  BTW for new bug
> reporter having no answer for 2 - 4 weeks = devs don't care or this
> project has to get it's act together.

I think this needs to be solved by educating the user about how bugs are
triaged in a project as large as Ubuntu and that it's normal not to get
an immediate response to a minor cosmetic bug or one with an easy
workaround, especially if release is imminent and the developers are all
working on truly grave bugs...

Lee


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Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Dennis Kaarsemaker
In reply to this post by Sandis Neilands
On wo, 2006-03-15 at 01:14 +0200, Sandis Neilands wrote:
> BTW for new bug reporter having no answer for 2 - 4 weeks = devs don't
> care or this project has to get it's act together.

Please stay constructive on this list. There are numerous bugs filed and
developers do their best to address them all.
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Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Lee Revell
On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 00:27 +0100, Dennis Kaarsemaker wrote:
> On wo, 2006-03-15 at 01:14 +0200, Sandis Neilands wrote:
> > BTW for new bug reporter having no answer for 2 - 4 weeks = devs don't
> > care or this project has to get it's act together.
>
> Please stay constructive on this list. There are numerous bugs filed and
> developers do their best to address them all.

I think it is constructive - if people start to feel that the bug
tracker is a black hole, it indicates we aren't providing enough
information to users about the process.

It would help to list some things they can do if they don't get an
immediate response, like search for upstream bugs.  I guarantee you that
entering "Dell Latitude X1" into the kernel bugzilla will turn up at
least one of those bugs.

Even inexperienced users are pretty good at researching bugs and
connecting the dots, if you point them in the right direction, and this
can save HOURS of developer time...

Lee


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Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Wouter Stomp
In reply to this post by Sandis Neilands
On 3/14/06, Sandis Neilands <[hidden email]> wrote:

> And in what wiki page/help doc are these mentioned? BTW for new bug
> reporter having no answer for 2 - 4 weeks = devs don't care or this
> project has to get it's act together.
>
> --

I agree on this, when I reported my first bugs I was very disappointed
when there was no response at all from anyone for quite some time.
Just a short response saying it will take some time to get it fixed or
asking for more information or telling what you can do yourself to
help fix this bug would be a lot better en encouraging than nothing.

Wouter.

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Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

John McCabe-Dansted
In reply to this post by Lee Revell
> I think it is constructive - if people start to feel that the bug
> tracker is a black hole, it indicates we aren't providing enough
> information to users about the process.

As I understand, Ubuntu devel is focused on technical issues, and is
intended for discussion of solutions rather than expressions of
discontent or PR issues --- especially when a new version is about to
be released. Ubuntu-sounder is more appropriate for such comments.

Discussion of appropriate use of the -devel list is it self rather
off-topic for -devel, and perhaps we should move this discussion to a
Wiki? E.g.
    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelFAQ

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Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Sandis Neilands
In reply to this post by Dennis Kaarsemaker
Hello Dennis!

On 3/15/06, Dennis Kaarsemaker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On wo, 2006-03-15 at 01:14 +0200, Sandis Neilands wrote:
> > BTW for new bug reporter having no answer for 2 - 4 weeks = devs don't
> > care or this project has to get it's act together.
>
> Please stay constructive on this list.

I thought that recognizing problem is part of being constructive,
since nobody is going to provide solution for unknown/unrecognized
problem.

> There are numerous bugs filed and
> developers do their best to address them all.

Did I say somewhere that they are not doing enough?
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Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Sandis Neilands
In reply to this post by John McCabe-Dansted
Hello John!

On 3/15/06, John McCabe-Dansted <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I think it is constructive - if people start to feel that the bug
> > tracker is a black hole, it indicates we aren't providing enough
> > information to users about the process.
>
> As I understand, Ubuntu devel is focused on technical issues, and is
> intended for discussion of solutions rather than expressions of
> discontent or PR issues --- especially when a new version is about to
> be released. Ubuntu-sounder is more appropriate for such comments.

While I agree with you, how are you going to determine if some thread
is going to be OT before it gets reasonable amount of replies? By
killing threads/sending threads to sounder too early you might
actually lose some good input.

> Discussion of appropriate use of the -devel list is it self rather
> off-topic for -devel, and perhaps we should move this discussion to a
> Wiki? E.g.
>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelFAQ

If there would be a wiki page that clearly stated what is and what's
not appropriate for -devel AND if that page would be the first thing a
new subscriber encounters AND if threads weren't killed too early I'm
sure there would be less people discussing appropriate use of -devel
itself.

As for me, I will unplug my keyboard after I write this line :)
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Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Lee Revell
On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 03:14 +0200, Sandis Neilands wrote:
> While I agree with you, how are you going to determine if some thread
> is going to be OT before it gets reasonable amount of replies? By
> killing threads/sending threads to sounder too early you might
> actually lose some good input.

I though it was relevant to -devel because it directly impacts the
quality and quantity of bug reports which are essential to development.
But I'd be glad to move it to sounder or the wiki if it's OT here.

The current Ubuntu bug reporting guidelines seem to consist of "A
detailed description of the problem you are seeing."

https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+filebug

Let's develop some guidelines on the wiki and link it from the "Report a
bug" page.

Lee


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Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Michael Favia
In reply to this post by Andreas Schildbach-2
Andreas Schildbach wrote:

> This time, I'll just post the bug numbers rather than writing a lengthy
> report. From a users perspective, I can't tell that Flight 5 has changed
> anything compared to Flight 2 besides some artwork.
>
> I must admit that I'm a bit disappointed that none of my bugs since
> Flight 2 have even been touched, let alone fixed (some have been
> confirmed by other users though). I am beginning to have doubt about
> filing bugs to that black hole called Malone...
>
> However, here are the bugs I encountered:
>
> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/28769
> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/31233
> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/27202
> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/32804
> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/30802
> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/30803
> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/31990
> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/34953

Some of your bugs are lacking critical information that makes it
difficult to see if they are even worth investigating fully. To this end
you shouldn't have to know what this information is or that you need to
provide it unless you are asked for it.

Is there an official bug triaging group for ubuntu (wiki turns up
nothing)? If so i would like to volunteer some time each week to helping
the project meet its goals. If not i would like to spearhead an effort
to organize such a group to make bug reporters feel valued for taking
the time to provide the valuable input they give to the project and
equally importantly discriminate the true bugs from the anomalies of
userland. One of the values that creates the sense of community in
opensource software provides is feeling that your contributions (even
bug reports) make a difference and improve the project. Quick attention
to refine unconfirmed bugs solve 2 problems at once. thx, -mf
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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Lakin Wecker
<a href="https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<a href="https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReportingBugs" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReportingBugs
#ubuntu-bugs on <a href="http://irc.freenode.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> irc.freenode.net

I'm also interested in helping solve this problem.  But similar to other people, I think that ubuntu-devel is not the appropriate place to discuss this. 
I've started a wiki page to fuel the discussion, perhaps other people interested can add their comments and insights there for the time being.  (Or jump onto irc and #ubuntu-bugs for real time feedback.)

Sincerly,

Lakin Wecker

On 3/14/06, Michael Favia <[hidden email]> wrote:
Andreas Schildbach wrote:

> This time, I'll just post the bug numbers rather than writing a lengthy
> report. From a users perspective, I can't tell that Flight 5 has changed
> anything compared to Flight 2 besides some artwork.
>
> I must admit that I'm a bit disappointed that none of my bugs since
> Flight 2 have even been touched, let alone fixed (some have been
> confirmed by other users though). I am beginning to have doubt about
> filing bugs to that black hole called Malone...
>
> However, here are the bugs I encountered:
>
> <a href="https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/28769" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/28769
> <a href="https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/31233" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/31233
> <a href="https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/27202" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/27202
> <a href="https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/32804" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/32804
> <a href="https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/30802" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/30802
> <a href="https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/30803" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/30803
> <a href="https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/31990" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/31990
> <a href="https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/34953" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/34953

Some of your bugs are lacking critical information that makes it
difficult to see if they are even worth investigating fully. To this end
you shouldn't have to know what this information is or that you need to
provide it unless you are asked for it.

Is there an official bug triaging group for ubuntu (wiki turns up
nothing)? If so i would like to volunteer some time each week to helping
the project meet its goals. If not i would like to spearhead an effort
to organize such a group to make bug reporters feel valued for taking
the time to provide the valuable input they give to the project and
equally importantly discriminate the true bugs from the anomalies of
userland. One of the values that creates the sense of community in
opensource software provides is feeling that your contributions (even
bug reports) make a difference and improve the project. Quick attention
to refine unconfirmed bugs solve 2 problems at once. thx, -mf
--
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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Lakin Wecker
The Wiki Page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingBugReporters

Lakin

On 3/14/06, Lakin Wecker <[hidden email]> wrote:
<a href="https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<a href="https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReportingBugs" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReportingBugs
#ubuntu-bugs on <a href="http://irc.freenode.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> irc.freenode.net

I'm also interested in helping solve this problem.  But similar to other people, I think that ubuntu-devel is not the appropriate place to discuss this. 
I've started a wiki page to fuel the discussion, perhaps other people interested can add their comments and insights there for the time being.  (Or jump onto irc and #ubuntu-bugs for real time feedback.)

Sincerly,

Lakin Wecker


On 3/14/06, Michael Favia <[hidden email]> wrote:
Andreas Schildbach wrote:

> This time, I'll just post the bug numbers rather than writing a lengthy
> report. From a users perspective, I can't tell that Flight 5 has changed
> anything compared to Flight 2 besides some artwork.
>
> I must admit that I'm a bit disappointed that none of my bugs since
> Flight 2 have even been touched, let alone fixed (some have been
> confirmed by other users though). I am beginning to have doubt about
> filing bugs to that black hole called Malone...
>
> However, here are the bugs I encountered:
>
> <a href="https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/28769" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/28769
> <a href="https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/31233" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/31233
> <a href="https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/27202" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/27202
> <a href="https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/32804" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/32804
> <a href="https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/30802" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/30802
> <a href="https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/30803" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/30803
> <a href="https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/31990" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/31990
> <a href="https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/34953" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/34953

Some of your bugs are lacking critical information that makes it
difficult to see if they are even worth investigating fully. To this end
you shouldn't have to know what this information is or that you need to
provide it unless you are asked for it.

Is there an official bug triaging group for ubuntu (wiki turns up
nothing)? If so i would like to volunteer some time each week to helping
the project meet its goals. If not i would like to spearhead an effort
to organize such a group to make bug reporters feel valued for taking
the time to provide the valuable input they give to the project and
equally importantly discriminate the true bugs from the anomalies of
userland. One of the values that creates the sense of community in
opensource software provides is feeling that your contributions (even
bug reports) make a difference and improve the project. Quick attention
to refine unconfirmed bugs solve 2 problems at once. thx, -mf
--
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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Lee Revell
In reply to this post by Michael Favia
On Tue, 2006-03-14 at 20:49 -0600, Michael Favia wrote:
> Quick attention
> to refine unconfirmed bugs solve 2 problems at once.

IMHO refining bugs is unnecessary and a waste of developer time - in my
experience, if you publish good bug reporting guidelines, the vast
majority of users will follow them.

Our bug reporting guidelines should be good enough that Ubuntu bugs can
be sent upstream verbatim if we determine that's where the bug is - very
few of the ones on the list pass that test.

Lee


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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Jordan Mantha
In reply to this post by Michael Favia
Michael Favia wrote:
<snip>

> Is there an official bug triaging group for ubuntu (wiki turns up
> nothing)? If so i would like to volunteer some time each week to helping
> the project meet its goals. If not i would like to spearhead an effort
> to organize such a group to make bug reporters feel valued for taking
> the time to provide the valuable input they give to the project and
> equally importantly discriminate the true bugs from the anomalies of
> userland. One of the values that creates the sense of community in
> opensource software provides is feeling that your contributions (even
> bug reports) make a difference and improve the project. Quick attention
> to refine unconfirmed bugs solve 2 problems at once. thx, -mf

There is Bug (HUG) Day scheduled for this Friday [1]. That would be an
excellent start. Perhaps a dedicated team could grow out of these Bug Days.

-Jordan Mantha

[1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay

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Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Dennis Kaarsemaker
In reply to this post by Sandis Neilands
On wo, 2006-03-15 at 02:50 +0200, Sandis Neilands wrote:

> I thought that recognizing problem is part of being constructive,

Yes, and badmouthing about developers is not.
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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Dennis Kaarsemaker
In reply to this post by Michael Favia
On di, 2006-03-14 at 20:49 -0600, Michael Favia wrote:
> Is there an official bug triaging group for ubuntu (wiki turns up
> nothing)? If so i would like to volunteer some time each week to
> helping the project meet its goals. If not i would like to spearhead
> an effort to organize such a group to make bug reporters feel valued
> for taking the time to provide the valuable input they give to the
> project and equally importantly discriminate the true bugs from the
> anomalies of userland.

Several people are subscribed to the ubuntu-bugs list and spend quite
some time doing basic triaging. However - this group is not too well
organized yet and is short of manpower (at least that's how I see it).

Daniel Holbach is doing his best to organize bug/hug days but a more
solid bug triaging work would be welcome. When I started doing bug
triaging in novermber last year, I visited lots of old bugs that did not
get a single response - this is simply caused by a lack of bug triaging
people. The situation has improved since then but al help is welcome.
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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Dennis Kaarsemaker
In reply to this post by Lee Revell
On di, 2006-03-14 at 22:32 -0500, Lee Revell wrote:

> IMHO refining bugs is unnecessary and a waste of developer time - in
> my experience, if you publish good bug reporting guidelines, the vast
> majority of users will follow them.

Don't expect too much from users, lots of them won't know how to file a
bug if you write an N-page (N being an arbitrary large number) manual
for it. Triaging is really important.
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Dennis K.
 - Linux for human beings - http://www.ubuntu.com
 - Linux voor normale mensen - http://www.ubuntu-nl.org

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