Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

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Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Eric Feliksik
Dennis Kaarsemaker wrote:
> On wo, 2006-03-15 at 02:50 +0200, Sandis Neilands wrote:
>
>> I thought that recognizing problem is part of being constructive,
>
> Yes, and badmouthing about developers is not.
>

What Sandis originally said, was:
> And in what wiki page/help doc are these mentioned? BTW for new bug
> reporter having no answer for 2 - 4 weeks = devs don't care or this
> project has to get it's act together.
>

He's talking about the impression things make on *new
users/bugreporters*. Whether that impression is correct or not, is a
totally different matter. However, I think we all agree that we want to
make our users happy. Part of that is that if we're doing the best we
can to address bugs, *let them know*. That's all.

Relax, Dennis ;-) good to protect our beloved developers, but there is
no offense here.

(maybe it'd be good to start a discussion on possible improvements in
the bug-tracking system on some other list, I think there is a lot to
win there)

Eric

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Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Dennis Kaarsemaker
On wo, 2006-03-15 at 11:39 +0100, Eric Feliksik wrote:

> (maybe it'd be good to start a discussion on possible improvements in
> the bug-tracking system on some other list, I think there is a lot to
> win there)

Hell yeah! [hidden email] is an excellent place to
get this going. Malone needs lots of love UI-wise, search wise and
simply to help users write correct bug reports.

It's a shame that some people dislike it so much that they start
blogging about it but it's definitely understandable.

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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Daniel Robitaille-2
In reply to this post by Dennis Kaarsemaker
On 3/15/06, Dennis Kaarsemaker <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On di, 2006-03-14 at 20:49 -0600, Michael Favia wrote:
> > Is there an official bug triaging group for ubuntu (wiki turns up
> > nothing)? If so i would like to volunteer some time each week to
> > helping the project meet its goals. If not i would like to spearhead
> > an effort to organize such a group to make bug reporters feel valued
> > for taking the time to provide the valuable input they give to the
> > project and equally importantly discriminate the true bugs from the
> > anomalies of userland.
>
> Several people are subscribed to the ubuntu-bugs list and spend quite
> some time doing basic triaging. However - this group is not too well
> organized yet and is short of manpower (at least that's how I see it).
>
> Daniel Holbach is doing his best to organize bug/hug days but a more
> solid bug triaging work would be welcome. When I started doing bug
> triaging in novermber last year, I visited lots of old bugs that did not
> get a single response - this is simply caused by a lack of bug triaging
> people. The situation has improved since then but al help is welcome.

There are a lot of old forgotten bug in Malone.  Bugs without any
responses from anyone. Bugs that could be better sorted with simply a
few additional answers from the reporter (version of Ubuntu?, copy
xorg.log?, etc)  Bugs that were solved months ago but nobody bothered
closing the report.  And bugs that were not assigned to anyone and
appear to simply fall between the cracks.

It seems everytime I take a quick look at Malone I can find a few bugs
that needed some love;  so it really feel like it is the tip of a
large iceberg.

Hopefully the next bug/hug day will generates a lot of hugs :)

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Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

John Nilsson
In reply to this post by John McCabe-Dansted
On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 12:53 +1300, John McCabe-Dansted wrote:
> As I understand, Ubuntu devel is focused on technical issues,

The technical issue being: "we aren't providing enough
information to users about the process" which results in loss of "HOURS
of developer time".

>  and is
> intended for discussion of solutions

The solution being: "list some things they can do if they don't get an
immediate response, like search for upstream bugs."

Regards,
John Nilsson


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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Dennis Kaarsemaker
In reply to this post by Daniel Robitaille-2
On wo, 2006-03-15 at 08:50 -0800, Daniel Robitaille wrote:

> It seems everytime I take a quick look at Malone I can find a few bugs
> that needed some love;  so it really feel like it is the tip of a
> large iceberg.

I've seen your work - it really rocks. I did the same in November -
December, just visit all old open bugs to check what you can do. If we
can round up a team of people (yes - if you want to start helping ubuntu
development, THIS is your queue. There's no easier way to start than
bugtriaging!) we could do so much more.

So, volunteers? /join #ubuntu-bugs, visit heaps of bugs in malone,
subscribe to ubuntu-bugs and get going. Ubuntu needs you!

And if you get stuck with a report? Ask us on IRC, there's a growing
number of people in #ubuntu-bugs and we can help you get started.
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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

François-Denis Gonthier-3
On Wednesday 15 March 2006 13:36, Dennis Kaarsemaker wrote:

> On wo, 2006-03-15 at 08:50 -0800, Daniel Robitaille wrote:
> > It seems everytime I take a quick look at Malone I can find a few bugs
> > that needed some love;  so it really feel like it is the tip of a
> > large iceberg.
>
> I've seen your work - it really rocks. I did the same in November -
> December, just visit all old open bugs to check what you can do. If we
> can round up a team of people (yes - if you want to start helping ubuntu
> development, THIS is your queue. There's no easier way to start than
> bugtriaging!) we could do so much more.
>
> So, volunteers? /join #ubuntu-bugs, visit heaps of bugs in malone,
> subscribe to ubuntu-bugs and get going. Ubuntu needs you!
>
> And if you get stuck with a report? Ask us on IRC, there's a growing
> number of people in #ubuntu-bugs and we can help you get started.

I'm scared of subscribing to Ubuntu-bugs.  I fear my mailbox will overflow :(

But I'm very interested by the 'triage team' idea.  I can even provide patches
myself sometimes.

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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Lee Revell
On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 14:32 -0500, Francois-Denis Gonthier wrote:
>
>
> I'm scared of subscribing to Ubuntu-bugs.  I fear my mailbox will
> overflow :(
>
> But I'm very interested by the 'triage team' idea.  I can even provide
> patches
> myself sometimes.

IMHO no sane developer would contribute their time to this until some
decent bug reporting guidelines are in place - who wants to wade through
a ton of impossibly vague bug reports asking users for more information
over and over and over?

The ALSA team has good instructions in place for bug reporting including
a script to gather required information and as a result I would estimate
90% of bug reports we see are good enough to be immediately actionable.

Lee




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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Darren L
In reply to this post by François-Denis Gonthier-3
~75 in 2 hours. :S

Who can keep up with this?


On 3/15/06, Francois-Denis Gonthier <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wednesday 15 March 2006 13:36, Dennis Kaarsemaker wrote:

> On wo, 2006-03-15 at 08:50 -0800, Daniel Robitaille wrote:
> > It seems everytime I take a quick look at Malone I can find a few bugs
> > that needed some love;  so it really feel like it is the tip of a
> > large iceberg.
>
> I've seen your work - it really rocks. I did the same in November -
> December, just visit all old open bugs to check what you can do. If we
> can round up a team of people (yes - if you want to start helping ubuntu
> development, THIS is your queue. There's no easier way to start than
> bugtriaging!) we could do so much more.
>
> So, volunteers? /join #ubuntu-bugs, visit heaps of bugs in malone,
> subscribe to ubuntu-bugs and get going. Ubuntu needs you!
>
> And if you get stuck with a report? Ask us on IRC, there's a growing
> number of people in #ubuntu-bugs and we can help you get started.


I'm scared of subscribing to Ubuntu-bugs.  I fear my mailbox will overflow :(

But I'm very interested by the 'triage team' idea.  I can even provide patches
myself sometimes.


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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

François-Denis Gonthier-3
In reply to this post by Lee Revell
On Wednesday 15 March 2006 14:52, Lee Revell wrote:

> On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 14:32 -0500, Francois-Denis Gonthier wrote:
> > I'm scared of subscribing to Ubuntu-bugs.  I fear my mailbox will
> > overflow :(
> >
> > But I'm very interested by the 'triage team' idea.  I can even provide
> > patches
> > myself sometimes.
>
> IMHO no sane developer would contribute their time to this until some
> decent bug reporting guidelines are in place - who wants to wade through
> a ton of impossibly vague bug reports asking users for more information
> over and over and over?
>
> The ALSA team has good instructions in place for bug reporting including
> a script to gather required information and as a result I would estimate
> 90% of bug reports we see are good enough to be immediately actionable.
I'd say the ALSA bug trackers probably have different average customer than
Ubuntu.  The Linux distribution that distributes ALSA acts as a first line of
defense for them.  

In fact, an user that knows that the sound that their speakers output goes
throught a set of drivers that is called 'ALSA' means the user is begining to
be Linux-saavy.  A bug report that says "There is no sound out of app X"
probably won't reach them directly...

Making bug reporting guidelines is a Good Thing.  Some people will follow
them.  Many may actually do.  But I personally don't expect miracles.  I
think vague, incomplete bug reports are a part of the game.  Long term
education will help interrested user complete better bug report in the
future, and that's why I think ignoring the sometimes naïve bug reports they
post is the worst thing to do.  Appending a feedback, maybe only asking for
more informations, is the best thing triager can do.

oh and I do admit developers shouldn't care about that.  Gathering more
informations is a front line job for bug triager and newcomers to the
project.  Developers should develop, and patch things when they are
confirmed.

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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Lee Revell
In reply to this post by Darren L
On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 13:54 -0700, Darren L wrote:
> ~75 in 2 hours. :S
>
> Who can keep up with this?

Dave Jones on LKML called it "drinking from the fire hose" ;-)

Lee


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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Daniel Robitaille-2
In reply to this post by Lee Revell
On 3/15/06, Lee Revell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 14:32 -0500, Francois-Denis Gonthier wrote:
> >
> >
> > I'm scared of subscribing to Ubuntu-bugs.  I fear my mailbox will
> > overflow :(
> >
> > But I'm very interested by the 'triage team' idea.  I can even provide
> > patches
> > myself sometimes.
>
> IMHO no sane developer would contribute their time to this until some
> decent bug reporting guidelines are in place - who wants to wade through
> a ton of impossibly vague bug reports asking users for more information
> over and over and over?

In a perfect world, I don't want developers to look at these bug
reports, at least not initially (I really like that "drinking out of
the fire hose" analogy). That's a not efficient usage of their limited
time and of their skills.   That's why paid QA staff(s), and community
based people need to be the first line; weed out the duplicates and
obvious to-be-rejected reports;  get in the report all the important
information needed from the reporter.  Then the developers can look at
the leftovers reports, and hopefully they will be in a good enough
shape so that they can identify the problem more easily.

> The ALSA team has good instructions in place for bug reporting including
> a script to gather required information and as a result I would estimate
> 90% of bug reports we see are good enough to be immediately actionable.

*) users don't read guidelines. They just want their bug/problem to go away.

*) Malone can receive reports that are related to any of  15,000+
packages.  I'm skeptical that a script could deal for that wide range
of possibility of what went wrong, and what pieces of info are needed
for the developers.

One thing that could really help would be if one of the question when
submitting a bug report was the version Ubuntu/applications the user
is reporting a problem against.   A large majority  of the bug reports
initially don't have that information, and you often have to sort the
reporter if this is a Breezy or Dapper problem, and exactly which
version he/she was using.  That type of info could be done at the
initial bug submission level.

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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

François-Denis Gonthier-3
In reply to this post by Lee Revell
On Wednesday 15 March 2006 16:02, Lee Revell wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 13:54 -0700, Darren L wrote:
> > ~75 in 2 hours. :S
> >
> > Who can keep up with this?
>
> Dave Jones on LKML called it "drinking from the fire hose" ;-)
>
> Lee

It's not *that* bad actually.

I've set a filter in Kmail to only keep Unconfirmed bug as unread, plus I
brain-filter bugs that apply to package I've got no clues about.  I'm pretty
sure that leaves a handful of bug per day for me.  That's still a lot.  I
certainly won't reply to that much bug everyday but I'll be happy if I get an
average of 1.5 per day.

If many people did that, we may cover a lot of new bugs unconfirmed bugs.

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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Lee Revell
In reply to this post by Daniel Robitaille-2
On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 13:33 -0800, Daniel Robitaille wrote:
> *) users don't read guidelines. They just want their bug/problem to go
> away.
>

Does not matter - if 100 people report the same bug we only need a quick
way to get to the one good report, the rest can go to /dev/null.  Bug
reporting guidelines make the process easier because you can immediately
shitcan any reports where the user obviously didn't read the guidelines.
The same users who won't read the guidelines also won't bother to search
for dupes before submitting a report anyway...

It's just an easy way to filter out useless bug reports at a glance.

Lee


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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Dennis Kaarsemaker
In reply to this post by Darren L
On wo, 2006-03-15 at 13:54 -0700, Darren L wrote:
> ~75 in 2 hours. :S
>
> Who can keep up with this?

I usually do this while commuting (~2h/day commute, not all spent on the
bugs)

You can also subscribe to bugreports per package instead of the complete
ubuntu-bugs list. So if your experience is in a specific area: subscribe
to a few dozen sourcepackages (one time job that takes some time).

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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Darren L
Is there a way to automatically submit bug reports with relevant info generated by the system, and only additional details filled in by the user? 



On 3/15/06, Dennis Kaarsemaker <[hidden email]> wrote:
On wo, 2006-03-15 at 13:54 -0700, Darren L wrote:
> ~75 in 2 hours. :S
>
> Who can keep up with this?

I usually do this while commuting (~2h/day commute, not all spent on the
bugs)

You can also subscribe to bugreports per package instead of the complete
ubuntu-bugs list. So if your experience is in a specific area: subscribe
to a few dozen sourcepackages (one time job that takes some time).

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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Dennis Kaarsemaker
On wo, 2006-03-15 at 15:48 -0700, Darren L wrote:
> Is there a way to automatically submit bug reports with relevant info
> generated by the system, and only additional details filled in by the
> user?  

bug-buddy is something we need to port to malone.
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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Corey Burger
On 3/15/06, Dennis Kaarsemaker <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On wo, 2006-03-15 at 15:48 -0700, Darren L wrote:
> > Is there a way to automatically submit bug reports with relevant info
> > generated by the system, and only additional details filled in by the
> > user?
>
> bug-buddy is something we need to port to malone.

The relevant bug is:
https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/7839

Corey

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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Daniel Holbach-2
In reply to this post by Lee Revell
Hello Lee,

Am Mittwoch, den 15.03.2006, 14:52 -0500 schrieb Lee Revell:
> IMHO no sane developer would contribute their time to this until some
> decent bug reporting guidelines are in place - who wants to wade through
> a ton of impossibly vague bug reports asking users for more information
> over and over and over?


I'd really appreciate it if you were less polemic. We *DO* have
documentation on bug reporting [1] (which links to [2]).

[1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReportingBugs
[2] http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html


A lot of bugs are vague, but I wouldn't consider myself to be insane,
when I ask people to tell me the version of Ubuntu they're using, what
happens if they run <bla> from the command line, what they intended to
do, ... - bug reports *are* vague and will probably always be. We just
can't expect people to have the knowledge we have. In bug reports most
people express they *care* about Ubuntu.

Have a nice day,
 Daniel


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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

John Nilsson
In reply to this post by Daniel Robitaille-2
On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 13:33 -0800, Daniel Robitaille wrote:
> *) Malone can receive reports that are related to any of  15,000+
> packages.  I'm skeptical that a script could deal for that wide range
> of possibility of what went wrong, and what pieces of info are needed
> for the developers.

One possibility would be to have each package provide its own set of bug
report scripts and/or other bug reporting policies. The bug reporting
application would call these scripts and attach their output while
guiding the user through the bug submission.

Regards,
John


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Re: Bug Triage Project - WAS: Re: Dapper Flight 5 Installation Report

Jamie Jones-3
On Thu, 2006-03-16 at 17:06 +0100, John Nilsson wrote:

> On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 13:33 -0800, Daniel Robitaille wrote:
> > *) Malone can receive reports that are related to any of  15,000+
> > packages.  I'm skeptical that a script could deal for that wide range
> > of possibility of what went wrong, and what pieces of info are needed
> > for the developers.
>
> One possibility would be to have each package provide its own set of bug
> report scripts and/or other bug reporting policies. The bug reporting
> application would call these scripts and attach their output while
> guiding the user through the bug submission.
That was possible with the reportbug tool, indeed I make use of it for
my 3rd party .debs, but reportbug does not work with lp. Once I tell
people about reportbug, they usually use it to send me bug reports, and
it brings all the useful information with it thanks to my script, eg
logs, cpu & opengl info. If wanted I could share my bash scripts, but
they are trivial to make ( cat foo >> bar )

That functionality would be nice to have for Ubuntu packages as well.

Regards,
Yagisan
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