Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Aigars Mahinovs-2
On 2/15/06, Santiago Roza <[hidden email]> wrote:
> there are no easy solutions, because the legal issue is tricky (and
> risky).  the ones i can think of are:
> - including a post-install wizard that downloads and installs all that
> stuff, if the user claims the same thing as before.

This solution is as easy as it gets. And the message should rather be:
"Due to the cripled legal system of USA and Japan which allows
software patents, we have to ship Ubuntu that is crippled in its media
playing capabilities. If you do not live in these countries or have in
other way acquired rights to play media protected by software patents,
you can download media plugins from our site."
With a single button - "Uncripple media capabilities"

The dialog should not take more then a couple of days to do. After
that the legal responsibility is with the users and Ubuntu can not do
anything and doesn't have to do anything.

I suggest that this issue be considered release critical for Dapper.

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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

James "Doc" Livingston
In reply to this post by Dane Mutters
On Tue, 2006-02-14 at 23:20 -0800, Dane Mutters wrote:
> Seems like a more permanent solution, although probably beyond the reach of
> the open source community, would be to simply buy the rights to the software.  
> For now, though, I put my vote behind a wizard that allows the user an option
> like, "I agree to pay all licensing fees as mentioned above" or some such,
> and if accepted, installs the software.

Fluendo has a zero-cost MP3 plugin for gstreamer which has the necessary
patent licences and the source is BSD-licenced. However as discussed
previously (here and in many other places) it doesn't solve the issue
completely.


My IANAL summary follows, anything incorrect is due to my own
mi-understanding of the situation:

a) If you build from source yourself, you don't get covered under
Fluendo's patent licence
b) Users can download the binary plugins from Fluendo's website for no
cost, and be covered under the patent licence.
c) Groups (e.g. Canonical) can distribute the binary plugins, if they
sign the necessary agreement.

(a) isn't any better than using the existing stuff without a licence.
(b) gets you licenced, but doesn't add out-of-the-box support.


The problem with (c) is that the licence is not redistributable to third
parties, unless they sign the agreement too. So while Canonical could
distribute Ubuntu CDs with the plugin, no-one else could (unless they
signed).

That is in conflicts with section 7 of the GPL, which means that you
cannot distribute the plugin together with GPL-licenced applications
that link to it.

Which means Rhythmbox, amaroK using the GStreamer backend, or any other
application that uses QT and GStreamer. Depending on who you ask, it may
(or may not) also include anything that uses the plugin with another
plugin that uses GPL-licenced code - such as as the plugins for
accessing audio cds.


While getting a patent licence sounds nice, it has practical issues for
any distro that ships GPL-licences GStreamer-using application.


Cheers,

James "Doc" Livingston
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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Dane Mutters
In reply to this post by Aigars Mahinovs-2
On Wednesday 15 February 2006 01:16 am, Aigars Mahinovs wrote:

> On 2/15/06, Santiago Roza <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > there are no easy solutions, because the legal issue is tricky (and
> > risky).  the ones i can think of are:
> > - including a post-install wizard that downloads and installs all that
> > stuff, if the user claims the same thing as before.
>
> This solution is as easy as it gets. And the message should rather be:
> "Due to the cripled legal system of USA and Japan which allows
> software patents, we have to ship Ubuntu that is crippled in its media
> playing capabilities. If you do not live in these countries or have in
> other way acquired rights to play media protected by software patents,
> you can download media plugins from our site."
> With a single button - "Uncripple media capabilities"

        LOL!  Great message.  Perhaps a little brash, but definitely amusing.

>
> The dialog should not take more then a couple of days to do. After
> that the legal responsibility is with the users and Ubuntu can not do
> anything and doesn't have to do anything.
>
> I suggest that this issue be considered release critical for Dapper.

        Who should we contact to make this so?

        --Dane

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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Duncan Lithgow
In reply to this post by Lee Revell
On Tue, 2006-02-14 at 18:21 -0500, Lee Revell wrote:

> On Tue, 2006-02-14 at 14:16 -0800, Dane Mutters wrote:
> >   I think that while "DHCP" and "protocol" are beyond the vocabulary
> > of the
> > average home user, it's really nice for those of us who understand
> > them to be
> > able to see what's going on.  Perhaps we can use something like,
> > "Attempting
> > to autoconfigure network device (DHCP)."
>
> "Acquiring network address"?
Either of those would be fine. Isn't 'hardware' just a more widely
understood term for device? Let's not get too theoretical - in this
specific case wouldn't 'hardware' be better understood by more people?

duncan


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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Santiago Roza-2
In reply to this post by Dane Mutters
On 2/15/06, Dane Mutters <[hidden email]> wrote:

>         Seems like a more permanent solution, although probably beyond the reach of
> the open source community, would be to simply buy the rights to the software.

no, because that way you'd still be incompatible with most gpl
software, which doesn't allow such restrictions.


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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Santiago Roza-2
In reply to this post by Aigars Mahinovs
On 2/15/06, Aigars Mahinovs <[hidden email]> wrote:


> The dialog should not take more then a couple of days to do.

well it's not *that* easy as it sounds; it's not just about a yes/no
dialog and downloading a couple files.

it needs to add extra repositories (multiverse and maybe plf),
download/install the packages via synaptic, then configure them.

and since most users don't have broadband at home, a downloadable
patch would be nice too.

and before that, there's the tecnical decision of backends (gstreamer
+extras or totem-xine or what?), and the legal/political decision of
doing this or playing safe (and screwing the user).


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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Duncan Lithgow
In reply to this post by Santiago Roza-2
On Wed, 2006-02-15 at 03:27 -0300, Santiago Roza wrote:
> there are no easy solutions, because the legal issue is tricky (and
> risky).  the ones i can think of are:
> - making a parallel non-us version of ubuntu, with all the patented stuff.
The advantage of this - with suitable notes next to the files - is that
it could be very awareness raising. There are lots of sites with
downloadable software with that bit about 'it is illegal for you to
install or use this software if you live in Cuba, Syria, Iran, Nth Korea
' etc.
> - including the patented stuff in ubuntu, but install it only if the
> user claims not to be in the us or any other country with software
> patents.
This must be the best option, what does the legal team say?
> - including a post-install wizard that downloads and installs all that
> stuff, if the user claims the same thing as before.
Of course here we're back to the issue of connection speed - so I'm not
a personal fan of this one.

Who else do we need to include in this discussion?

duncan


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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Santiago Roza-2
In reply to this post by Dane Mutters
On 2/15/06, Dane Mutters <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Who should we contact to make this so?

the motu team i guess, or some other big ubuntu name (maybe mark
himself since it's a political decision)?

i already suggested this to one of them, but never got a reply.


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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Duncan Lithgow
In reply to this post by Daniel T Chen
On Tue, 2006-02-14 at 22:28 -0800, [hidden email] wrote:

> I presume you're reacting thusly due to frustration and not due to
> factual relevance. Totem in stock Ubuntu Dapper currently plays at
> least the following audio formats: wav, flac, speex, and vorbis.
You can test this by using the sound recorder to record a wav file and
then try and play it back. It's never worked for me out-of-the-box.

> I'd love to have assistance whipping vlc into shape for Dapper+1.
Yes, VLC is great for me, one of the first things I do after a fresh
install. I can't even program - so err, how can I help...?

Duncan


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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Manu Cornet-3
In reply to this post by Santiago Roza-2


Hi !

> well it's not *that* easy as it sounds; it's not just about a yes/no
> dialog and downloading a couple files.
>
> it needs to add extra repositories (multiverse and maybe plf),
> download/install the packages via synaptic, then configure them.

Just FYI, this is what "EasyUbuntu" does. It has been first available in
French, but seems to have been translated now :

        http://easyubuntu.freecontrib.org/

You may already be aware of this piece of software... just in case :)

Cheers,
Manu


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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Santiago Roza-2
On 2/15/06, Manu Cornet <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Just FYI, this is what "EasyUbuntu" does.

yes i am aware of easyubuntu (and automatix etc); as a matter of fact
it was good to find out someone was doing it already, so my idea
couldn't be that stupid  :)

the problem with those are that they are not truly multilanguage, they
install too many useless things (like acrobat reader or even the java
developers kit), they tend to be messy hacks, and they ask too many
questions (mainly because they install too many things).


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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Travis Watkins
In reply to this post by Dane Mutters
On 2/15/06, Dane Mutters <[hidden email]> wrote:
>         I understand that there are legal issues involved, so I'm not going to press
> the point about Ubuntu coming stock with Mplayer or Xine (and XMMS for MP3
> support), but I do think it would be appropriate to have a built-in How-To on
> how to get it (and the codecs) if it is legal where you are.  Just out of
> curiosity, does anybody know where Mplayer/Xine/XMMS/w32codecs, etc. are NOT
> legal?

w32codecs is illegal in any country that has copyright law. w32codecs
isn't a reimplementation of certain codecs, it's a straight copy of
the dll files from a windows machine.

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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Marco Cabizza
Il giorno mer, 15/02/2006 alle 09.26 -0600, Travis Watkins ha scritto:
> w32codecs is illegal in any country that has copyright law. w32codecs
> isn't a reimplementation of certain codecs, it's a straight copy of
> the dll files from a windows machine.

I don't think this is actually true. Microsoft distributes its codecs
for free, and I guess that if that were illegal EVERYWHERE mplayer-hq
wouldn't ship it. Of course most of them have (both pending or approved)
patents, I guess.

But still, not a choice for a release if the Ubuntu guys don't even want
to ship mp3 codecs which are 100% legal in any european country as of
2006, unless full autonomy to countries is given and the local patent
offices start to accept software patents by national law, which will be
a total BOOMERANG for most international enterprises.

~marco


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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Marco Cabizza
In reply to this post by Aigars Mahinovs-2
Il giorno mer, 15/02/2006 alle 11.16 +0200, Aigars Mahinovs ha scritto:

> On 2/15/06, Santiago Roza <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > there are no easy solutions, because the legal issue is tricky (and
> > risky).  the ones i can think of are:
> > - including a post-install wizard that downloads and installs all that
> > stuff, if the user claims the same thing as before.
>
> This solution is as easy as it gets. And the message should rather be:
> "Due to the cripled legal system of USA and Japan which allows
> software patents, we have to ship Ubuntu that is crippled in its media
> playing capabilities. If you do not live in these countries or have in
> other way acquired rights to play media protected by software patents,
> you can download media plugins from our site."
> With a single button - "Uncripple media capabilities"
>
> The dialog should not take more then a couple of days to do. After
> that the legal responsibility is with the users and Ubuntu can not do
> anything and doesn't have to do anything.
>
> I suggest that this issue be considered release critical for Dapper.
>

I TOTALLY agree, as Debian has the non-US CD. I posted something like
that in an Ubuntu forum, and I got punched in the face for strange
reasons :) Anyway, that's a good solution I guess, mostly because it's
legal in 95% countries of planet Earth.

~marco

> --
> Best regards,
>     Aigars Mahinovs        mailto:[hidden email]
>  #--------------------------------------------------------------#
>  |     .''`.         Debian GNU/Linux              LAKA         |
>  |    : :' :      http://www.debian.org  &  http://www.laka.lv  |
>  |    `. `'                                                     |
>  |      `-                                                       |
>  #--------------------------------------------------------------#


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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Santiago Roza-2
In reply to this post by Marco Cabizza
On 2/15/06, Marco Cabizza <[hidden email]> wrote:


> I don't think this is actually true.

well it is.  you can't just take other software's copyrighted dlls,
redistribute them your own way, and expect that to be legal.

we were talking about patented stuff, not w32codecs which are
completely out of the question.



> Microsoft distributes its codecs
> for free

the fact that they don't charge money if you want to download them
doesn't mean you're authorized to repackage them and redistribute them
the way you want.  that's illegal everywhere period.


> and I guess that if that were illegal EVERYWHERE mplayer-hq
> wouldn't ship it.

it's just that there are countries that don't really enforce copyright
laws.  that doesn't make it any less illegal.


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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Santiago Roza-2
In reply to this post by Marco Cabizza
On 2/15/06, Marco Cabizza <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I TOTALLY agree, as Debian has the non-US CD.
> Anyway, that's a good solution I guess, mostly because it's
> legal in 95% countries of planet Earth.

maintaining two cds is a hassle and will generate many problems; i
guess that's why they don't want to go down that road.

of course it would have its advantages, though.


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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Marco Cabizza
Il giorno mer, 15/02/2006 alle 12.56 -0300, Santiago Roza ha scritto:

> On 2/15/06, Marco Cabizza <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I TOTALLY agree, as Debian has the non-US CD.
> > Anyway, that's a good solution I guess, mostly because it's
> > legal in 95% countries of planet Earth.
>
> maintaining two cds is a hassle and will generate many problems; i
> guess that's why they don't want to go down that road.
>
> of course it would have its advantages, though.

I can't find disadvantages, that's why practicity is not the reason. It
would not give legal issues, and due to the modular arch of GST - which
is the new black for media handling, whenever it'll be stable enough to
do pretty much every basic stuff with no trouble - the whole thing is
easy and it just requires a few more packages to be stuck into a CD.

I once got a reply which states "Ubuntu has to be free and legal for
everyone", or something similar. If that is the opinion, well, I may
respect it, but I still don't agree :)

~marco


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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Marco Cabizza
In reply to this post by Santiago Roza-2
> well it is.  you can't just take other software's copyrighted dlls,
> redistribute them your own way, and expect that to be legal.
>
> we were talking about patented stuff, not w32codecs which are
> completely out of the question.

I honestly don't know Microsoft policies for redistribution of freeware
libraries and such, but as i said, the mplayer guys have a package with
a bunch of DLL's, I don't think they would do that if it were illegal.
But still, OK, that's OT, I don't want to carry on with this :)

~marco


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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Adam D. Barratt-21
In reply to this post by Marco Cabizza
On Wednesday, February 15, 2006 3:47 PM, Marco Cabizza <[hidden email]>
wrote:
[...]
> I TOTALLY agree, as Debian has the non-US CD.

s/has/had/.

woody was the last release for which there was a non-US CD (or in fact any
non-US at all).

Regards,

Adam


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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Marco Cabizza
Il giorno mer, 15/02/2006 alle 16.17 +0000, Adam D. Barratt ha scritto:
> On Wednesday, February 15, 2006 3:47 PM, Marco Cabizza <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> [...]
> > I TOTALLY agree, as Debian has the non-US CD.
>
> s/has/had/.
>
> woody was the last release for which there was a non-US CD (or in fact any
> non-US at all).

I meant 'had', sorry... I remember the last time i used a full ISO to
install Debian was one of the last 2.2 releases. Although I thought it
had been removed with Sarge and not with Woody.

~marco


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