Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

John Nilsson
On Wed, 2006-02-15 at 12:54 -0300, Santiago Roza wrote:
> > I don't think this is actually true.
>
> well it is.  you can't just take other software's copyrighted dlls,
> redistribute them your own way, and expect that to be legal.
>
> we were talking about patented stuff, not w32codecs which are
> completely out of the question.

You know, there's a group in Sweden that might have a shot of actually
change this. With some luck this might be a precedent to the rest of the
world, ultimately affecting even USA.

At the risk of posting spam, (but I DO think it's on topic).

A political party (the Pirate Party) that has only three issues on the
agenda two of them being: abolish all patents and reform copyright law
to make not-for profit use of copyrighted material free and shorten
copyright protection time to something reasonable like five years while
also limiting what is protected.

https://www.piratpartiet.se/English.aspx ( the declaration of principles
is outdated and the new version, sadly, hasn't been updated to reflect
the changes yet, the big one being about allowing a limited and short
copyright.)

Right now any support for this initiative is very much welcome. The goal
is to convince 4% of the Swedish population that this is more important
than how big the income tax for the coming four years will be.


Please don't continue this post with a political discussion. Anyone who
whish to do so is very much welcome to the party forum
https://www.piratpartiet.se/forum/Forum78-1.aspx for further discussion.
(Critics of the party, from the software world, has been somewhat absent
from the discussion, so the declaration of principles might be lacking
in that area due to insufficient discussion.)


Please don't take this as spam. I really do believe that this is one
possible approach to the patent/copyright problem.

Regards,
John


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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Adam D. Barratt-21
In reply to this post by Marco Cabizza
On Wed, 2006-02-15 at 17:54 +0100, Marco Cabizza wrote:

> Il giorno mer, 15/02/2006 alle 16.17 +0000, Adam D. Barratt ha scritto:
> > On Wednesday, February 15, 2006 3:47 PM, Marco Cabizza <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > [...]
> > > I TOTALLY agree, as Debian has the non-US CD.
> >
> > s/has/had/.
> >
> > woody was the last release for which there was a non-US CD (or in fact any
> > non-US at all).
>
> I meant 'had', sorry... I remember the last time i used a full ISO to
> install Debian was one of the last 2.2 releases. Although I thought it
> had been removed with Sarge and not with Woody.

Sarge has Packages files for non-US, but they're empty. etch won't have
them at all.

Anyway, this is getting a tad OT :)

Cheers,

Adam

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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Dane Mutters
In reply to this post by Santiago Roza-2
On Wednesday 15 February 2006 06:06 am, Santiago Roza wrote:
> On 2/15/06, Dane Mutters <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Who should we contact to make this so?
>
> the motu team i guess, or some other big ubuntu name (maybe mark
> himself since it's a political decision)?
>
> i already suggested this to one of them, but never got a reply.

        I would like to send an email to motu or Mark just to make sure that he/they
is/are aware of this discussion.  (This discussion probably won't actually
amount to much if the people in charge of such decisions never see it.)  
Unfortunately, I was unable to find the appropriate contact address on the
Ubuntu site.  Do any of you know where I can find that information (or do any
of you have it handy)?

        Thanks

        --Dane

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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Oliver Grawert
In reply to this post by Adam D. Barratt-21
hi,
Am Mittwoch, den 15.02.2006, 18:17 +0000 schrieb Adam D. Barratt:
>
> Anyway, this is getting a tad OT :)
yes, it would be nice if it could taken to the sounder list, the whole
thread is not development related at all and produces a lot of
uneccesary noise here...

ciao
        oli

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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Oliver Grawert
In reply to this post by Adam D. Barratt-21
hi,
Am Mittwoch, den 15.02.2006, 18:17 +0000 schrieb Adam D. Barratt:
>
> Anyway, this is getting a tad OT :)
yes, it would be nice if it could taken to the sounder list, the whole
thread is not development related at all and produces a lot of
uneccesary noise here...

ciao
        oli

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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Lee Revell
In reply to this post by Aigars Mahinovs
On Wed, 2006-02-15 at 11:15 +0200, Aigars Mahinovs wrote:
> This solution is as easy as it gets. And the message should rather be:
> "Due to the cripled legal system of USA and Japan which allows
> software patents, we have to ship Ubuntu that is crippled in its media
> playing capabilities. If you do not live in these countries or have in
> other way acquired rights to play media protected by software patents,
> you can download media plugins from our site."
> With a single button - "Uncripple media capabilities"

I realize it's fashionable to bash the US, but would this really help
users?  After all they will still consider it "crippled" if it does not
include the Win32 codecs - which would be illegal to ship under ANY
legal system.

Lee


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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Dane Mutters
On Tuesday 21 February 2006 12:48 pm, Lee Revell wrote:

> On Wed, 2006-02-15 at 11:15 +0200, Aigars Mahinovs wrote:
> > This solution is as easy as it gets. And the message should rather be:
> > "Due to the cripled legal system of USA and Japan which allows
> > software patents, we have to ship Ubuntu that is crippled in its media
> > playing capabilities. If you do not live in these countries or have in
> > other way acquired rights to play media protected by software patents,
> > you can download media plugins from our site."
> > With a single button - "Uncripple media capabilities"
>
> I realize it's fashionable to bash the US, but would this really help
> users?  After all they will still consider it "crippled" if it does not
> include the Win32 codecs - which would be illegal to ship under ANY
> legal system.
>
> Lee

        I think that while the wording is a bit questionable, a nice easy to enable
OGG, MP3, MPEG, etc. is in order.  Aren't there other libraries aside from
w32codecs than will allow playing these types of files (ffmpeg, for example)?  
Also, in some countries, there aren't really copyright laws; I think there
should be an option to install the w32codecs if the user lives in one of
those countries.

        Just my two bits...

        --Dane

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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Sandis Neilands
Hello!

Perhaps I have misunderstood something but how come the w32codecs are
illegal (as for copyright not patents) if most if not all codecs
included are freeware? I mean if it's illegal to distribute them, then
why do we see sites like http://www.free-codecs.com/ still around?

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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Aigars Mahinovs-2
On 2/22/06, Sandis Neilands <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Perhaps I have misunderstood something but how come the w32codecs are
> illegal (as for copyright not patents) if most if not all codecs
> included are freeware? I mean if it's illegal to distribute them, then
> why do we see sites like http://www.free-codecs.com/ still around?

Acually it is not illegal for a user to download those codecs as they
are infact all freeware codecs. It is also not illegal to offer that
package for download if you insure that content in question is taken
down if a cease and desist order comes in from a copyright holder. It
must be insured that the content is held in a country where software
patents do not apply, so that patent claims can be safely ignored, but
otherwise I see no significant legal barriers.

If there is a reliable location from where an automated process can
download w32codecs pack, I see nothing legally or technically blocking
creating and distributing an automated tool that after a command from
the user downloads and install those packages. Copyright law does not
restrict use, only distribution.

In any case there must be a consultation with competent lawyers (like
EFF and FFII lawyers) before putting that tool into the release and it
is most probable that direct distribution of w32codecs pack on the CD
would be hard to achieve legally.

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    Aigars Mahinovs        mailto:[hidden email]
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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Santiago Roza-2
On 2/22/06, Aigars Mahinovs <[hidden email]> wrote:


> Acually it is not illegal for a user to download those codecs as they
> are infact all freeware codecs.

what does that have to do with *anything*?  the term "freeware"
doesn't mean much more than "you can legally use these binary files
without paying, as long as you use them in the exact same way we tell
you in the eula".

that license agreement not only doesn't authorize redistribution, but
only applies if you "sign" it, ie you install the official package.
so if you don't "sign" it, you're using those files without a license
= you're using them illegaly.


> It is also not illegal to offer that
> package for download if you insure that content in question is taken
> down if a cease and desist order comes in from a copyright holder.

who says that?  not copyright law, that's for sure.  copyright
infringement is always illegal, wether you're prosecuted or not.


> It
> must be insured that the content is held in a country where software
> patents do not apply

the main problem with w32codecs is copyright, not patents.


> If there is a reliable location from where an automated process can
> download w32codecs pack

that would be a country without copyright law and/or agreement to the
berne convention.  good luck finding one  :)


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Fwd: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Sandis Neilands
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sandis Neilands <[hidden email]>
Date: Feb 22, 2006 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing
To: Santiago Roza <[hidden email]>


Hello!

On 2/22/06, Santiago Roza <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2/22/06, Aigars Mahinovs <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> > Acually it is not illegal for a user to download those codecs as they
> > are infact all freeware codecs.
>
> what does that have to do with *anything*?  the term "freeware"
> doesn't mean much more than "you can legally use these binary files
> without paying, as long as you use them in the exact same way we tell
> you in the eula".
You probably know better, but how restricting eulas are? And another
question - do they apply worldwide?

> that license agreement not only doesn't authorize redistribution, but
> only applies if you "sign" it, ie you install the official package.
> so if you don't "sign" it, you're using those files without a license
> = you're using them illegaly.

We could use wine to install those things so that user signs them,
then use some external script that packages them in proper.deb format,
install them in proper place, remove wine and other temporary packs.
In fact, very similar to sun java's installation
(https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats#head-e2ebd70ede0e3eb2117ffbd618d2295dd1540dca)
. This, of course, would be only possible if it's not illegal to touch
those files even after they are installed.

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Somebody, please, fix the reply-to field.
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Re: Dapper installation notes/Stuff that needs fixing

Santiago Roza-2
In reply to this post by Santiago Roza-2
On 2/22/06, Sandis Neilands <[hidden email]> wrote:


> You probably know better, but how restricting eulas are? And another
> question - do they apply worldwide?

they are *very* restrictive, and they do apply worldwide.


> We could use wine to install those things so that user signs them,
> then use some external script that packages them in proper.deb format,
> install them in proper place, remove wine and other temporary packs.
> In fact, very similar to sun java's installation

no it's not similar to java... java has a native linux package, we're
not picking file from a windows install.

and installing a software package so mplayer can piggyback on its dlls
is *not* authorized end-user behaviour.


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