Gnome replaces Unity

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Gnome replaces Unity

Richard Kimber
I understand that in 17.10 Gnome is going to replace Unity.

When Unity was introduced I stuck wiith Gnome and eventually ended up with
Ubuntu-mate.

So, my question is: would people advise moving back from Ubuntu-mate to the
main Gnome-based distribution?  I'm not sure I see the point of Mate
post-17.10, but maybe there is some benefit in sticking with it (?). Or is
it all purely cosmetic?

- Richard.
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Re: Gnome replaces Unity

Ralf Mardorf-2
On Sat, 14 Oct 2017 16:22:24 +0100, R Kimber wrote:
>would people advise moving back from Ubuntu-mate to the main
>Gnome-based distribution?

Hi,

don't do it!
Don't do it!
Don't do it!
Don't do it!

After using both Live-DVDs several times, the Ubuntu Mate 16.10 x86_64
as well as the Tails 3.1 x86_64, I strongly recommend against
using GNOME.

Ubuntu as well as Tails are based upon Debian and Tails does come with
GNOME. I'm a pure openbox user, I dislike Lubuntu, even while the used
WM is openbox, but I like Ubuntu Mate, just not enough to migrate from
openbox to Mate.

Do yourself a favour and stay with Mate.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: Gnome replaces Unity

Colin Law
On 14 October 2017 at 16:44, Ralf Mardorf <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, 14 Oct 2017 16:22:24 +0100, R Kimber wrote:
>>would people advise moving back from Ubuntu-mate to the main
>>Gnome-based distribution?
>
> Hi,
>
> don't do it!
> Don't do it!
> Don't do it!
> Don't do it!
>
> After using both Live-DVDs several times, the Ubuntu Mate 16.10 x86_64
> as well as the Tails 3.1 x86_64, I strongly recommend against
> using GNOME.
>
> Ubuntu as well as Tails are based upon Debian and Tails does come with
> GNOME. I'm a pure openbox user, I dislike Lubuntu, even while the used
> WM is openbox, but I like Ubuntu Mate, just not enough to migrate from
> openbox to Mate.
>
> Do yourself a favour and stay with Mate.

It would be helpful if you made some suggestions about what is wrong
with Gnome Shell rather than just stating don't do it, without any
reasons.
Also, and this question if for the OP, is Mate based on Gnome Shell?
If not then why the suggestion to move to it?

Colin

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Re: Gnome replaces Unity

Compdoc@hotrodpc.com
In reply to this post by Richard Kimber
On 10/14/2017 09:22 AM, R Kimber wrote:

> So, my question is: would people advise moving back from Ubuntu-mate to the
> main Gnome-based distribution?

I had to switch to Mate to allow remote desktop connections, because its
a 2D environment.

If Ubuntu's gnome desktop supports that, I'll happily use it. Otherwise,
I'll stick with alternatives.


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Re: Gnome replaces Unity

Richard Kimber
In reply to this post by Colin Law
On Sat, 14 Oct 2017 17:07:26 +0100
Colin Law wrote:

> is Mate based on Gnome Shell

I think it's based on Gnome 2, so I assume the answer is 'no', but I'm not
an expert - hence the original question.

- Richard
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Re: Gnome replaces Unity

Colin Law
On 14 October 2017 at 17:26, R Kimber
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2017 17:07:26 +0100
> Colin Law wrote:
>
>> is Mate based on Gnome Shell
>
> I think it's based on Gnome 2, so I assume the answer is 'no', but I'm not
> an expert - hence the original question.

Looking at the screenshots on the Mate website it doesn't look
anything like Gnome Shell, so I am not sure I see why Ubuntu going to
that has any relevance to the future of Mate. Gnome Shell is much like
Unity. I switched my wife over from Unity to Gnome Shell and she
barely noticed the difference.

Colin

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Re: Gnome replaces Unity

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Richard Kimber
On 14 October 2017 at 17:22, R Kimber
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I understand that in 17.10 Gnome is going to replace Unity.
>
> When Unity was introduced I stuck wiith Gnome and eventually ended up with
> Ubuntu-mate.

Yes, but that was GNOME 2. Maté is a fork of GNOME 2.

> So, my question is: would people advise moving back from Ubuntu-mate to the
> main Gnome-based distribution?

If you didn't like Unity, then no.

>  I'm not sure I see the point of Mate
> post-17.10,

Maté is now its own desktop. It started off as a fork of GNOME 2.

GNOME 3 is a totally different product with a totally different
desktop that is unlike anything else. It is not Windows-like (as are
Maté, Xfce, LXDE, KDE, Enlightenment etc.) nor is it Mac-like (as are
Unity and Elementary).

GNOME 3 also needs hardware 3D acceleration, like Unity and Cinnamon,
but unlike Maté, Xfce & LXDE.)

> but maybe there is some benefit in sticking with it (?)

If you like the desktop. GNOME 3 is totally unlike it. But you might
like it. Try it in a VM or on a spare machine or even dual-booting and
see. Some people do. I do not, myself.

>  Or is
> it all purely cosmetic?

No.

Maté, like GNOME 2 itself and XFCE and LXDE, was based on GNOME 2's
programming toolkit, Gtk2.

Unity, GNOME 3 & Cinnamon use a newer version, Gtk3.

However, it's now been several years and Gtk3 has stabilised.

XFCE 4.12 has switched to it. Maté is still underway but I understand
it's nearly done. LXDE switched to the rival Qt instead.

So soon all the major Gtk desktops will be on Gtk3 -- GNOME 3, Maté,
Xfce & Cinnamon. This means that they can share more components.

Mint, the authors of Cinnamon and sponsors of Maté, have also forked
the GNOME 3 accessories -- file manager, text editor, image & document
viewer, calculator, etc.

The reason is that the GNOME project have removed menu bars, toolbars
and a lot of customisation from these tools in their pursuit of
radical simplicity. (GNOME 3 is somewhat phone-like.)

That means there were 2 forks of the GNOME accessories: Maté forked
the GNOME 2 ones, Cinnamon forked the GNOME 3 ones.

Mint have forked the accessories and put these things back. Now
they're sponsoring an effort to merge the Maté and Cinnamon
accessories into what they call XApps.

This means that the Maté & Cinnamon projects will both have smaller
code-bases to maintain and much more code in common. Hopefully this
means further, quicker progress. Xfce may adopt some of these apps
too.

So while it's a bad time for Unity, my favourite Linux desktop, it's a
good time for Maté, as well as for Xfce and Cinnamon.

Me, I use XFCE at work. I may switch to that, as it does vertical
panels way better than Maté or Cinnamon.

But I am not switching to GNOME. I try it every year or so, and every
time, it gets weirder, less like anything else, with more features
removed. It's also more integrated with systemd and I don't like
systemd much either.

TL;DR.

I would advise you to try it for yourself, but not to switch your main
machine to it until you've decided. From what you've said you have
absolutely no reason to switch and every reason to stay on your chosen
desktop.

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Re: Gnome replaces Unity

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Compdoc@hotrodpc.com
On 14 October 2017 at 18:21, compdoc <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If Ubuntu's gnome desktop supports that, I'll happily use it. Otherwise,
> I'll stick with alternatives.

It doesn't. It's 3D-only.

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Re: Gnome replaces Unity

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Colin Law
On 14 October 2017 at 18:07, Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Also, and this question if for the OP, is Mate based on Gnome Shell?

No.

Maté is based on GNOME 2. GNOME 2 did not have GNOME Shell; it's a
GNOME 3 innovation.

> If not then why the suggestion to move to it?

No idea.

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Re: Gnome replaces Unity

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Ralf Mardorf-2
On 14 October 2017 at 17:44, Ralf Mardorf <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> don't do it!
> Don't do it!
> Don't do it!
> Don't do it!
>
> After using both Live-DVDs several times, the Ubuntu Mate 16.10 x86_64
> as well as the Tails 3.1 x86_64, I strongly recommend against
> using GNOME.
>
> Ubuntu as well as Tails are based upon Debian and Tails does come with
> GNOME. I'm a pure openbox user, I dislike Lubuntu, even while the used
> WM is openbox, but I like Ubuntu Mate, just not enough to migrate from
> openbox to Mate.

I agreed with what Ralf says here entirely. :-)

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Re: Gnome replaces Unity

Ralf Mardorf-2
In reply to this post by Colin Law


> On 14 Oct 2017, at 18:07, Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 14 October 2017 at 16:44, Ralf Mardorf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 14 Oct 2017 16:22:24 +0100, R Kimber wrote:
>>> would people advise moving back from Ubuntu-mate to the main
>>> Gnome-based distribution?
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> don't do it!
>> Don't do it!
>> Don't do it!
>> Don't do it!
>>
>> After using both Live-DVDs several times, the Ubuntu Mate 16.10 x86_64
>> as well as the Tails 3.1 x86_64, I strongly recommend against
>> using GNOME.
>>
>> Ubuntu as well as Tails are based upon Debian and Tails does come with
>> GNOME. I'm a pure openbox user, I dislike Lubuntu, even while the used
>> WM is openbox, but I like Ubuntu Mate, just not enough to migrate from
>> openbox to Mate.
>>
>> Do yourself a favour and stay with Mate.
>
> It would be helpful if you made some suggestions about what is wrong
> with Gnome Shell rather than just stating don't do it, without any
> reasons.
> Also, and this question if for the OP, is Mate based on Gnome Shell?
> If not then why the suggestion to move to it?

Hi,

at the moment I run Tails with GNOME from a live media, to make a complete backup of my Linux multi-boot PC. I reply from my iPad, so the first thing I could point out is, that the GNOME desktop seemingly is for usage with a touchscreen. While my iPad has got a touch screen, the PC actually has got no touchscreen.

Another issue is, that you can't use gsettings and dconf to access all GNOME related settings, e.g. there's seemingly no way to set up /org/gnome/terminal/legacy/profiles:/ without using the GUI to edit the profile/s first. I could copy and paste an example when the backups are done.

I found no howto, to edit the panel's clock to display seconds, so I always install xclock, but randomly selecting "Always on Top" for the clock's window could cause a freeze, so only resetting the PC is possible.

Right now the dialog containing "Always on Top" doesn't disappear, while I didn't chose anything, this isn't much better than a total freeze.

There even is an inconsistency regarding the GNOME app's style. Some provide a menu bar, but no burger thingy, other provide the burger thingy, but no menu bar.

The animations are disgusting. The performance on my new machine is good, but the animations emulate a bad performance.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: Gnome replaces Unity

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Colin Law
On 14 October 2017 at 18:34, Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Looking at the screenshots on the Mate website it doesn't look
> anything like Gnome Shell, so I am not sure I see why Ubuntu going to
> that has any relevance to the future of Mate.

It doesn't. However I've written about the significance of general
moves on Maté in an earlier comment.

>  Gnome Shell is much like
> Unity.

:-o

I find that astonishing. They are very dissimilar to me. They only
resemble one another compared to Windows.

You can _make_ GNOME Shell look and work a lot like Unity with a whole
bunch of extensions. I've done it.

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/04/make-gnome-shell-look-feel-like-unity

There's even a tool to help now.

https://www.fossmint.com/gnome-layout-manager-make-gnome-into-unity-mac-windows/

The trouble is that it's mostly Ubuntu-only (I use SUSE at work) and
the result, while pretty, is very fragile. Extensions get upgraded all
the time, which must be done separately from OS upgrades as they are
not OS packages, and a combination that works together is very
dependent on the version. One version changes slightly and the whole
thing falls apart and you can't log out or launch apps.

I tried it on 3 distros (SUSE, Fedora and Ubuntu) and all experienced
similar problems. I am therefore not inclined to try it again. When
Ubuntu no longer supports Unity, I will probably switch to Xfce.

> I switched my wife over from Unity to Gnome Shell and she
> barely noticed the difference.

Remarkable.

I can only conclude that she is not a very demanding or intensive user.

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Re: Gnome replaces Unity

Adam McClure
In reply to this post by Richard Kimber

14 окт. 2017 г., в 11:22, R Kimber <[hidden email]> написал(а):

I understand that in 17.10 Gnome is going to replace Unity.

When Unity was introduced I stuck wiith Gnome and eventually ended up with
Ubuntu-mate.

So, my question is: would people advise moving back from Ubuntu-mate to the
main Gnome-based distribution?  I'm not sure I see the point of Mate
post-17.10, but maybe there is some benefit in sticking with it (?). Or is
it all purely cosmetic?

- Richard.
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Stick with Mate. Ubuntu 18.04 is going to use the full GNOME Desktop Environment with its buggy interface that still feels incomplete compared to GNOME 2.

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Re: Gnome replaces Unity

Colin Law
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
On 14 October 2017 at 17:49, Liam Proven <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 14 October 2017 at 18:34, Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Looking at the screenshots on the Mate website it doesn't look
>> anything like Gnome Shell, so I am not sure I see why Ubuntu going to
>> that has any relevance to the future of Mate.
>
> It doesn't. However I've written about the significance of general
> moves on Maté in an earlier comment.
>
>>  Gnome Shell is much like
>> Unity.
>
> :-o
>
> I find that astonishing. They are very dissimilar to me. They only
> resemble one another compared to Windows.

Have you tried the live image of 17.04?

Colin

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Re: Gnome replaces Unity

Colin Law
In reply to this post by Ralf Mardorf-2
On 14 October 2017 at 17:44, Ralf Mardorf <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ..
> Another issue is, that you can't use gsettings and dconf to access all GNOME related settings, e.g. there's seemingly no way to set up /org/gnome/terminal/legacy/profiles:/ without using the GUI to edit the profile/s first. I could copy and paste an example when the backups are done.

Not sure what you mean there.

>
> I found no howto, to edit the panel's clock to display seconds, so I always install xclock, but randomly selecting "Always on Top" for the clock's window could cause a freeze, so only resetting the PC is possible.

Tweak Tool > Top Bar > Show Seconds

Colin

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Re: Gnome replaces Unity

Xen
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
Liam Proven schreef op 14-10-2017 18:42:

> I agreed with what Ralf says here entirely. :-)

If I see all of what you said in the other email...



This does not bode well for Ubuntu.

Unless they greatly customize it.

Ubuntu was something you could give to people.

I never liked Unity but if I remember correctly Gnome 3 can't even
minimize windows.

I liked Unity fine enough for live session, great, nice look orange
feel.

No Desktop Environment can do without minimizing.

The show desktop feature of KDE is even terrible because it doesn't
actually minimize any windows, nor move them out of sight entirely.

STICK TO WHAT WORKS.

These 'innovations' are what ruin everything.



When I last tried Gnome 3 it was terrible.

The Gnome 3 people are pretty nice and more engaged or
community-oriented than the Kubuntu folk, less elitist in a way,

I mean the Ubuntu Gnome people.... sorry.



Cinnamon for me is the best-looking best-made desktop, just too limited
compared to KDE and with their own peculiar brand of weirdness called
reversing all dialog buttons.

"Let's fuck with people."

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Re: Gnome replaces Unity

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Colin Law
On 14 October 2017 at 19:04, Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Have you tried the live image of 17.04?

You mean 17.10?

Yes, of course. Some slight cosmetic changes over Dash-to-Dock. Better
but still not pleasant.

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Re: Gnome replaces Unity

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Xen
On 14 October 2017 at 19:17, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Liam Proven schreef op 14-10-2017 18:42:
>
>> I agreed with what Ralf says here entirely. :-)
>
>
> If I see all of what you said in the other email...
>
>
>
> This does not bode well for Ubuntu.

Agreed.

> Unless they greatly customize it.

They've said they won't but they've done some.

> Ubuntu was something you could give to people.

Yup.

> I never liked Unity

Doesn't sit well with your previous comment.

> but if I remember correctly Gnome 3 can't even minimize
> windows.

You do not. It can.

Double-click the title bar to maximise.
Right-click to minimise.

What it can't do is middle-click to send-to-back, a deal-breaker for me.

> I liked Unity fine enough for live session, great, nice look orange feel.

Um.

> No Desktop Environment can do without minimizing.

I'm sure it could. Psion EPOC did OK, for instance.

> The show desktop feature of KDE is even terrible because it doesn't actually
> minimize any windows, nor move them out of sight entirely.

I have not tried it. I have a KDE machine at work, I will look.

> STICK TO WHAT WORKS.

Then there'd never be any progress.

> These 'innovations' are what ruin everything.

I have discussed this with the dev team, and they deny it, but I think
a primary driver was to be _un_like Windows and secondarily the Mac.
Remember that this was the time when Microsoft was threatening to sue
the Linux world for copying the Windows desktop.

Which the Linux world had indeed done.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/Print/2013/06/03/thank_microsoft_for_linux_desktop_fail/

> When I last tried Gnome 3 it was terrible.

Agreed, more or less. Pretty but a pain to use.

> The Gnome 3 people are pretty nice and more engaged or community-oriented
> than the Kubuntu folk, less elitist in a way,

I've heard that. I find them very welcoming. I was at GUADEC last year
and it was very interesting.

> I mean the Ubuntu Gnome people.... sorry.

Um.

> Cinnamon for me is the best-looking best-made desktop, just too limited
> compared to KDE and with their own peculiar brand of weirdness called
> reversing all dialog buttons.

The best-looking?

NeXTstep. Never bettered.

Cinnamon is OK but it can't do vertical panels properly. That's
another deal-breaker for me.

> "Let's fuck with people."

I never even _noticed_ if dialog buttons moved. I change desktops all
the time -- my desktop is a Mac, the laptops run Ubuntu, I work for a
Linux company and I have spare boxes with Windows for things like
phone-reflashing and VMware-server-wrangling.

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Re: Gnome replaces Unity

Xen
Liam Proven schreef op 14-10-2017 19:47:

>> Ubuntu was something you could give to people.
>
> Yup.
>
>> I never liked Unity
>
> Doesn't sit well with your previous comment.

I would not use Cinnamon either but for someone who doesn't do a great
deal with a computer I think it would be better than KDE.

Let's qualify that by "give to people" I mean non-tech-savvy users like
e.g. my father, he wouldn't care, in fact he would like Unity better
than KDE I'm sure.

> Double-click the title bar to maximise.
> Right-click to minimise.

Right, does it have icons for that?

>> No Desktop Environment can do without minimizing.
>
> I'm sure it could. Psion EPOC did OK, for instance.

Never heard of. Not really interested in stepping back to ancient
history.


>> STICK TO WHAT WORKS.
>
> Then there'd never be any progress.

Untrue.

Progress is inventing new things that work better, they haven't done
that.

> I have discussed this with the dev team, and they deny it, but I think
> a primary driver was to be _un_like Windows and secondarily the Mac.

That's what I mean.

This means compromising what you actually like based on external
factors.

> Remember that this was the time when Microsoft was threatening to sue
> the Linux world for copying the Windows desktop.
>
> Which the Linux world had indeed done.
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/Print/2013/06/03/thank_microsoft_for_linux_desktop_fail/

You're saying that KDE signed a deal and could continue to be
Windows-like but Gnome didn't and had to depart?

Still sounds like it shouldn't have done enough on its own.

But I agree that the Windows model is basically the only way you can do
a desktop. The Mac interface hardly diverges in my opinion.

>> The Gnome 3 people are pretty nice and more engaged or
>> community-oriented
>> than the Kubuntu folk, less elitist in a way,
>
> I've heard that. I find them very welcoming. I was at GUADEC last year
> and it was very interesting.
>
>> I mean the Ubuntu Gnome people.... sorry.
>
> Um.

I mean that the Ubuntu Gnome people were very welcoming.

The Gnome people I have heard different stories about (even from
Torvalds and his diving application; that means the GTK people).

>> Cinnamon for me is the best-looking best-made desktop, just too
>> limited
>> compared to KDE and with their own peculiar brand of weirdness called
>> reversing all dialog buttons.
>
> The best-looking?
>
> NeXTstep. Never bettered.

I don't know how you can call NeXTstep good looking in this day and age,
but okay...

> I never even _noticed_ if dialog buttons moved. I change desktops all
> the time -- my desktop is a Mac, the laptops run Ubuntu, I work for a
> Linux company and I have spare boxes with Windows for things like
> phone-reflashing and VMware-server-wrangling.

That's odd. I never noticed anything different when I was testing MacOS.

The left-to-right stuff "OK"           "Cancel" --> Cinnamon has it
reversed.

In three-dialog-panes (three buttons) when you have something like
"Save" "Discard" and "Cancel" one of the buttons will be way to the left
evading you as you are looking for it, and they are doing this on
purpose because they think it is "better".

So I don't know how long you've used Cinnamon.

I've worked on it quite a bit.

And the stuff is deeply frustrating.

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Re: Gnome replaces Unity

Paul Smith-2
In reply to this post by Ralf Mardorf-2
On Sat, 2017-10-14 at 17:44 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> On Sat, 14 Oct 2017 16:22:24 +0100, R Kimber wrote:
> > would people advise moving back from Ubuntu-mate to the main
> > Gnome-based distribution?
>
> Hi,
>
> don't do it!
> Don't do it!
> Don't do it!
> Don't do it!
>
> After using both Live-DVDs several times, the Ubuntu Mate 16.10 x86_64
> as well as the Tails 3.1 x86_64, I strongly recommend against
> using GNOME.

Disagree.  I've been using GNU/Linux since 1993, and X for years before
that.  I've used so many window managers: TWM, CDE, FVWM for a long time
(I was a developer on FVWM2 for a while), GNOME 1, GNOME 2, Unity, GNOME
3.  I've tried even more for a few weeks here and there.  They all have
good points and bad points.

Unity was a bad direction right from the start.  I couldn't use it for
long before I had to dump it completely.

GNOME 3 is fine; it's currently the best of the available crop of
"standard" window managers (as opposed to specialized options like
tiling WMs or similar).  I use Tweak Tool to set things like sloppy
focus mode and make CAPSLOCK into a CTRL key, and I add a few extensions
(Frippery Panel Favourites and system-monitor mainly), and that's it.

Yes there are annoying things about GNOME 3 but they are easily
solvable: Tweak Tool should be a standard part of the configuration
rather than a separate tool.  There is a wretched amount of whitespace
taken up by the title bars in the default theme due to the ridiculous
border size settings (but this can be fixed with a small CSS override in
your home directory, or using a different theme).

It's still better than Unity, and as good as or better than GNOME 2.

I'm looking forward to having GNOME be the default Ubuntu desktop (like
it was back when I started using Ubuntu: that's why I switched from
Debian to Ubuntu, to get timely GNOME-based releases!)  I just hope they
don't do too much tweaking and just leave it the way it should be.  The
Ubuntu GNOME folks have been doing a great job.


The above is all, obviously, MHO.  Try them for yourself, it's easy to
do with VMs etc.  I just can't let all this hate for GNOME 3 to go
unchallenged: there are real users out there, who are not involved with
GNOME 3 development, who think it's the best option.

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