How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows

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How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows

Kevin O'Gorman
I've installed Ubuntu into a Windows laptop.  I missed the place where I was supposed to tell the install that the clock will be kept in local time, so switching between Linux and Windows is a pain.

Is there a way to fix this short of going back and doing it again?

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Re: How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows

Xen
Kevin O'Gorman schreef op 10-12-2017 0:00:

> I've installed Ubuntu into a Windows laptop.  I missed the place where
> I was supposed to tell the install that the clock will be kept in local
> time, so switching between Linux and Windows is a pain.

sudo timedatectl set-local-rtc true

> Is there a way to fix this short of going back and doing it again?

It's not possible to do it in the installer, I'm sorry.

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Re: How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows

Colin Law
In reply to this post by Kevin O'Gorman
On 9 December 2017 at 23:00, Kevin O'Gorman <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've installed Ubuntu into a Windows laptop.  I missed the place where I was supposed to tell the install that the clock will be kept in local time, so switching between Linux and Windows is a pain.

The clock is not normally an issue when dual booting. Are you sure you have setup the timezone correctly in both environments? To check in Ubuntu run, in a terminal
date
and it will show the date/time and timezone.  If it is wrong then you can run
sudo dpkg-reconfigure tzdata
to set it up.  Don't know how to do that in Windows.

Colin




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Re: How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows

Scott Blair
In reply to this post by Kevin O'Gorman
On 12/09/2017 06:00 PM, Kevin O'Gorman wrote:
I've installed Ubuntu into a Windows laptop.  I missed the place where I was supposed to tell the install that the clock will be kept in local time, so switching between Linux and Windows is a pain.

Is there a way to fix this short of going back and doing it again?

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Go to settings then time & date and you can set it there.



Thanks,

Scott Blair

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Save on backup time "Backup=/dev/null"

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Re: How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Colin Law
On 10 December 2017 at 10:42, Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The clock is not normally an issue when dual booting.

It bally well is for me!

E.g. if it's set to local time, both OSes move the system clock
forward or backwards when daylight savings times begins or ends,
resulting in a 2h discrepancy.

My solution: minimize use of Windows. I boot it a couple of times a
year, if that, normally.

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Re: How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows

Colin Law
On 10 December 2017 at 15:45, Liam Proven <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 10 December 2017 at 10:42, Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The clock is not normally an issue when dual booting.

It bally well is for me!

E.g. if it's set to local time, both OSes move the system clock
forward or backwards when daylight savings times begins or ends,
resulting in a 2h discrepancy.

My solution: minimize use of Windows. I boot it a couple of times a
year, if that, normally.

Interesting, I have never seen that. I assumed the system clock was in UTC, and so would not change with DST.  You may be right about that though, I have no evidence either way. However I would have thought it would re-sync the next time ntpdate or whatever it is that does the auto timesync ran.

Colin


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Re: How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows

Peter Silva
can confirm, at least in older versions of windows, localtime
(whatever timezone was set) was the time saved in the bios.  Dunno if
current windows versions have smartened up, but it never used to store
in UTC.

I agree that the sensible thing to do is for all OS's to always store
time in UTC at the hardware level and do the timezone in the OS, but
that's not how it was done before, might have improved in recent
years.


On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 10:52 AM, Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 10 December 2017 at 15:45, Liam Proven <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 10 December 2017 at 10:42, Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > The clock is not normally an issue when dual booting.
>>
>> It bally well is for me!
>>
>> E.g. if it's set to local time, both OSes move the system clock
>> forward or backwards when daylight savings times begins or ends,
>> resulting in a 2h discrepancy.
>>
>> My solution: minimize use of Windows. I boot it a couple of times a
>> year, if that, normally.
>
>
> Interesting, I have never seen that. I assumed the system clock was in UTC,
> and so would not change with DST.  You may be right about that though, I
> have no evidence either way. However I would have thought it would re-sync
> the next time ntpdate or whatever it is that does the auto timesync ran.
>
> Colin
>
>
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Re: How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows

Xen
Peter Silva schreef op 10-12-2017 16:57:
> can confirm, at least in older versions of windows, localtime
> (whatever timezone was set) was the time saved in the bios.  Dunno if
> current windows versions have smartened up, but it never used to store
> in UTC.
>
> I agree that the sensible thing to do is for all OS's to always store
> time in UTC at the hardware level and do the timezone in the OS, but
> that's not how it was done before, might have improved in recent
> years.

No it's still the same.

Personally I think saving in the local time zone is more logical, a bit
the same as using dead keys for a particular (local) keyboard.

I don't need to be universal.

I'm pretty sure they don't have our keyboards on the Pleiades anyway.

;-).

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Re: How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows

Colin Law
In reply to this post by Peter Silva
On 10 December 2017 at 15:57, Peter Silva <[hidden email]> wrote:
can confirm, at least in older versions of windows, localtime
(whatever timezone was set) was the time saved in the bios.  Dunno if
current windows versions have smartened up, but it never used to store
in UTC.

I agree that the sensible thing to do is for all OS's to always store
time in UTC at the hardware level and do the timezone in the OS, but
that's not how it was done before, might have improved in recent
years.

I understand the original question now, the solution to MS's garbage (though that might just be my view) system is tell Ubuntu to do the same, using timedatectl as suggested by Xen. I gather there are windows registry mods one can do to change the way Windows does it, though there is debate about the reliability of that.

Thanks to all for the education.

Colin

 


On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 10:52 AM, Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 10 December 2017 at 15:45, Liam Proven <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 10 December 2017 at 10:42, Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > The clock is not normally an issue when dual booting.
>>
>> It bally well is for me!
>>
>> E.g. if it's set to local time, both OSes move the system clock
>> forward or backwards when daylight savings times begins or ends,
>> resulting in a 2h discrepancy.
>>
>> My solution: minimize use of Windows. I boot it a couple of times a
>> year, if that, normally.
>
>
> Interesting, I have never seen that. I assumed the system clock was in UTC,
> and so would not change with DST.  You may be right about that though, I
> have no evidence either way. However I would have thought it would re-sync
> the next time ntpdate or whatever it is that does the auto timesync ran.
>
> Colin
>
>
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Re: How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows

Peter Silva
In reply to this post by Xen
I'm totally biased, having a long standing hatred for time zones... I
work in a job where there are at least five different timezones in use
all day, every day, and they are always a pain.   I work with a guy
trouble tracking issues, and the same system reports all times in his
timezone, and to me in my timezone (3 hours different.) while the
systems we are running together (for sanity) are all in UTC, it is
very, very confusing.

Sample bug... we download data from an ftp server that is in their
local time zone.  We need to pick out the new files that showed up in
a tree since the last time we looked (we look every few minutes.)   we
basically store the result of each listing in a file, and diff it.

Every six months, All of the files in the tree change, because the
operating system reports a different date for the same file than it
did an hour before... many thousands of files, and then they get
processed... yes we can write vastly more complicated logic to work
around this, but diffing files just won't work... twice a year.

yes, seething hatred...



On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 11:05 AM, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Peter Silva schreef op 10-12-2017 16:57:
>>
>> can confirm, at least in older versions of windows, localtime
>> (whatever timezone was set) was the time saved in the bios.  Dunno if
>> current windows versions have smartened up, but it never used to store
>> in UTC.
>>
>> I agree that the sensible thing to do is for all OS's to always store
>> time in UTC at the hardware level and do the timezone in the OS, but
>> that's not how it was done before, might have improved in recent
>> years.
>
>
> No it's still the same.
>
> Personally I think saving in the local time zone is more logical, a bit the
> same as using dead keys for a particular (local) keyboard.
>
> I don't need to be universal.
>
> I'm pretty sure they don't have our keyboards on the Pleiades anyway.
>
> ;-).
>
>
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Re: How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows

Xen
In reply to this post by Colin Law
Colin Law schreef op 10-12-2017 17:11:

> I understand the original question now, the solution to MS's garbage
> (though that might just be my view) system is tell Ubuntu to do the
> same, using timedatectl as suggested by Xen. I gather there are windows
> registry mods one can do to change the way Windows does it, though
> there is debate about the reliability of that.

Well personally I think the issue is whether you will use relative or
absolute coordination.

We humans like to think we are the centre of the universe and that
Greenwhich is that.

And then we try to use absolute coordinates.

I think if we ever became part of a space-faring society we'd realize
that relative referencing is a lot more stable ;-).

(Or if we understood Einstein better :p).

IPv4 NAT is a form of relative, IPv6 without NAT is a form of absolute.

If you use relative referencing your system can easily be integrated
into a bigger system, if you use absolute, it can't, but needs
translations at ever border.

Not only does it need translations at every border, you also now need
multiple addressing systems at the same time, or absolute@border
addresses.

It's a bit like using relative symlinks versus absolute ones.

Absolute ones break immediately and require chroots to keep functioning.

The "chroot" is equivalent to the "@border" address.

So the Linux people say: use UTC with timezone.

What if you don't know your timezone?

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Re: How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows

Xen
In reply to this post by Peter Silva
Peter Silva schreef op 10-12-2017 17:24:

> Every six months, All of the files in the tree change, because the
> operating system reports a different date for the same file than it
> did an hour before... many thousands of files, and then they get
> processed... yes we can write vastly more complicated logic to work
> around this, but diffing files just won't work... twice a year.

:).

Fat32 stores in local time, NTFS in UTC.

The problem is not the local time. The problem is UTC, I feel :p.

For Windows, this problem is that if you have a sync utility with your
main system on UTC, and your backup on fat32 (e.g. USB stick) you get
the same problem.

Fat32 simply won't change the time. It does not even have timezone
information.

03:00 on december 1 always remains that no matter what you do to the
clock.

The calculations should be done when data is moved; the movement is a
relative phenomenon.

Our UTC system would collapse the moment "central time" was defined
somewhere else (e.g. in another solar system) because then we'd *still*
have to do relative movement calculations the moment you move data from
one system to another.

In other words, supposing the other system also used absolute time, this
movement would be the difference between the two axes (if that made
sense at all).

But it would be the exact same relative calculation we are now trying to
avoid by using central time.

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Re: How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows

Peter Silva
In reply to this post by Xen
If you don't know your timezone, then you don't know what time it is.
This relative/absolute dichotomy is a red-herring, because time isn't
only used within one frame of reference.
Time is very often use to co-ordinate things among people who aren't
in the same frame of reference.   It's just like timezones, only worse
with Einstein because now time doesn't even run at the same speed.
How do you schedule a meeting between someone on earth and someone
orbiting at a speed where relativity is an issue?

You need a means to map the various relative times to the standard
one, and then communicate in the standard time reference.   This isn't
at all academic.  All (LEO) navigation satellites are built to
account the fact that the atomic clocks on board are running slower
relative to the earth because of their relative velocity to their
users. All navigation systems use UTC because anything else would be
totally insane.



On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 11:38 AM, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Colin Law schreef op 10-12-2017 17:11:
>
>> I understand the original question now, the solution to MS's garbage
>> (though that might just be my view) system is tell Ubuntu to do the same,
>> using timedatectl as suggested by Xen. I gather there are windows registry
>> mods one can do to change the way Windows does it, though there is debate
>> about the reliability of that.
>
>
> Well personally I think the issue is whether you will use relative or
> absolute coordination.
>
> We humans like to think we are the centre of the universe and that
> Greenwhich is that.
>
> And then we try to use absolute coordinates.
>
> I think if we ever became part of a space-faring society we'd realize that
> relative referencing is a lot more stable ;-).
>
> (Or if we understood Einstein better :p).
>
> IPv4 NAT is a form of relative, IPv6 without NAT is a form of absolute.
>
> If you use relative referencing your system can easily be integrated into a
> bigger system, if you use absolute, it can't, but needs translations at ever
> border.
>
> Not only does it need translations at every border, you also now need
> multiple addressing systems at the same time, or absolute@border addresses.
>
> It's a bit like using relative symlinks versus absolute ones.
>
> Absolute ones break immediately and require chroots to keep functioning.
>
> The "chroot" is equivalent to the "@border" address.
>
> So the Linux people say: use UTC with timezone.
>
> What if you don't know your timezone?
>
>
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Re: How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows

Xen
Peter Silva schreef op 10-12-2017 18:00:
> If you don't know your timezone, then you don't know what time it is.

Then you don't know what time it is, because you don't know the time
with respect to the rest of the universe.

> This relative/absolute dichotomy is a red-herring, because time isn't
> only used within one frame of reference.

The frames are relative to one another.

> Time is very often use to co-ordinate things among people who aren't
> in the same frame of reference.   It's just like timezones, only worse
> with Einstein because now time doesn't even run at the same speed.
> How do you schedule a meeting between someone on earth and someone
> orbiting at a speed where relativity is an issue?
>
> You need a means to map the various relative times to the standard
> one, and then communicate in the standard time reference.   This isn't
> at all academic.  All (LEO) navigation satellites are built to
> account the fact that the atomic clocks on board are running slower
> relative to the earth because of their relative velocity to their
> users.

So they translate their local frame to the earth frame, which is really
only sensible if you are going to move information to earth.

Now of course you suggest that they "keep up" their time by adding a
multiplication and thus make sure they always have Earth time, right?

Thus they keep UTC time at all times.

But they can do this because they are orbiting a planet and thus the
planet is the frame of reference.

Effectively they don't "know" what UTC time is, it is just a time
they've been set to and try to "keep up", if they lose it, they can't
magically rediscover UTC time, except by measuring the physical
properties of the Earth relative to the Sun or something like that.

We also don't know what our time is with regards to daylight savings,
but that is a warp regardless.

If you move into space, it is said, you lose a sense of up/down,
left/right.

I don't discount that hierarchy forms part of the universe, ie. moons
belong to planets, planets to suns, and so on.

Yet would you advocate keeping time locally on Earth in the central time
of some higher-up central sun that you were part of?

Even supposing these translations would be simple, how are you going to
keep Earth time in the time frame of some planet with 30 hour days?

Would you seriously consider adopting a 30 hour day calendar just so you
can speak the "same language"?

And then call everything else "insane"? :).

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Re: How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows

Peter Silva
There is nothing special about UTC, any more than there is anything
special about Greenwich, or Earth. One just needs to select a known
reference in order to compare times in different frames.  This is the
entire reason the metric system was invented.  When every local area
could have it's own units of measure, commerce over large distances
was difficult because amounts of anything were very difficult to
compare. It is the normal and general solution for everyone to agree
on a standard unit, folks convert from their locally convenient unit
to the reference and vice versa.

Without that sort of convention, how would you suggest to arrange a
meeting of 10 spacecraft initially travelling at different velocities
in different directions at a given location, velocity and direction,
at a given time?  They need to agree on a common measure of time, and
it doesn't matter what it is, but it has to be common.  To do anything
else would do extreme violence to Ockam's razor.



On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 12:26 PM, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Peter Silva schreef op 10-12-2017 18:00:
>>
>> If you don't know your timezone, then you don't know what time it is.
>
>
> Then you don't know what time it is, because you don't know the time with
> respect to the rest of the universe.
>
>> This relative/absolute dichotomy is a red-herring, because time isn't
>> only used within one frame of reference.
>
>
> The frames are relative to one another.
>
>> Time is very often use to co-ordinate things among people who aren't
>> in the same frame of reference.   It's just like timezones, only worse
>> with Einstein because now time doesn't even run at the same speed.
>> How do you schedule a meeting between someone on earth and someone
>> orbiting at a speed where relativity is an issue?
>>
>> You need a means to map the various relative times to the standard
>> one, and then communicate in the standard time reference.   This isn't
>> at all academic.  All (LEO) navigation satellites are built to
>> account the fact that the atomic clocks on board are running slower
>> relative to the earth because of their relative velocity to their
>> users.
>
>
> So they translate their local frame to the earth frame, which is really only
> sensible if you are going to move information to earth.
>
> Now of course you suggest that they "keep up" their time by adding a
> multiplication and thus make sure they always have Earth time, right?
>
> Thus they keep UTC time at all times.
>
> But they can do this because they are orbiting a planet and thus the planet
> is the frame of reference.
>
> Effectively they don't "know" what UTC time is, it is just a time they've
> been set to and try to "keep up", if they lose it, they can't magically
> rediscover UTC time, except by measuring the physical properties of the
> Earth relative to the Sun or something like that.
>
> We also don't know what our time is with regards to daylight savings, but
> that is a warp regardless.
>
> If you move into space, it is said, you lose a sense of up/down, left/right.
>
> I don't discount that hierarchy forms part of the universe, ie. moons belong
> to planets, planets to suns, and so on.
>
> Yet would you advocate keeping time locally on Earth in the central time of
> some higher-up central sun that you were part of?
>
> Even supposing these translations would be simple, how are you going to keep
> Earth time in the time frame of some planet with 30 hour days?
>
> Would you seriously consider adopting a 30 hour day calendar just so you can
> speak the "same language"?
>
> And then call everything else "insane"? :).
>
>
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Re: How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows

Ralf Mardorf-2
On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 14:43:45 -0500, Peter Silva wrote:
>Without that sort of convention, how would you suggest to arrange a
>meeting of 10 spacecraft initially travelling at different velocities
>in different directions at a given location, velocity and direction,
>at a given time?

Fortunately "How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with
Windows" doesn't require idiotic fantasies based on sciolism gained
from dumb TV reports about GTR and STR.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality


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Re: How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows

Peter Silva
when you're wrong, there is always trusty ad hominem to the rescue.

It wasn't me who brought up relativity.  I'm just pointing out that
folks who bring up ridiculous analogies ought to make sure they
actually make sense.  The arguments raised here smack of blinding with
science... aka BS.  I completely agree that this is now
bikeshedding... and worse, nobody's going to paint the shed even if we
pick a colour.



On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Ralf Mardorf <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 14:43:45 -0500, Peter Silva wrote:
>>Without that sort of convention, how would you suggest to arrange a
>>meeting of 10 spacecraft initially travelling at different velocities
>>in different directions at a given location, velocity and direction,
>>at a given time?
>
> Fortunately "How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with
> Windows" doesn't require idiotic fantasies based on sciolism gained
> from dumb TV reports about GTR and STR.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality
>
>
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Re: How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows

Xen
In reply to this post by Peter Silva
Peter Silva schreef op 10-12-2017 20:43:

> Without that sort of convention, how would you suggest to arrange a
> meeting of 10 spacecraft initially travelling at different velocities
> in different directions at a given location, velocity and direction,
> at a given time?  They need to agree on a common measure of time, and
> it doesn't matter what it is, but it has to be common.  To do anything
> else would do extreme violence to Ockam's razor.

I guess you're right, but I just find it interesting to consider that
even time zones are hierarchical units based on a standard agreement
based on a central longitudinal angle.

UTC is the next step up.

Without it, you only have relative distances.

But my question is: why haven't you solved your time zone problem if
this system is the way it's supposed to work?

Not just talking about the daylight savings anomaly.

In a relative framework, there is only now.

And there is a physical distance (longitudinal) to other people.

Without time zones, even minutes in an hour would not be consistent.

You would have relative distances from the moment "now" with nothing
fixed to anchor to except for your own ability to keep time.

It also interests me because the phrase "2004" has a very different ring
to it than "13 years ago". Ie. it has a different impact on people, one
causes judgement, the other causes awe.

People only judge absolute phenomena, the mind attaches to it; while
relative phenomena escape "conclusions".

100 degrees C. is "hot", but not so hot if you just came from 110.

80 years is "old" but not if you are habitually around 100 year olds.

Every judgement based on fixed numbers remains an attachment in the mind
that to anyone who is a little older must sound very familiar and often
very untrue.

But I am going to be chastised here for writing off-topic posts even
though to me this is meaningful for the "local TZ" vs "UTC" debate ;-).

So see you around.

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Re: How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows

Ralf Mardorf-2
In reply to this post by Peter Silva
On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 15:14:00 -0500, Peter Silva wrote:

>On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Ralf Mardorf <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Dec 2017 14:43:45 -0500, Peter Silva wrote:  
>>>Without that sort of convention, how would you suggest to arrange a
>>>meeting of 10 spacecraft initially travelling at different velocities
>>>in different directions at a given location, velocity and direction,
>>>at a given time?  
>>
>> Fortunately "How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with
>> Windows" doesn't require idiotic fantasies based on sciolism gained
>> from dumb TV reports about GTR and STR.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality
>when you're wrong, there is always trusty ad hominem to the rescue.
>
>It wasn't me who brought up relativity.  I'm just pointing out that
>folks who bring up ridiculous analogies ought to make sure they
>actually make sense.  The arguments raised here smack of blinding with
>science... aka BS.  I completely agree that this is now
>bikeshedding... and worse, nobody's going to paint the shed even if we
>pick a colour.

It isn't a personal attack against you, my intention is just to point
out that this discussion got out of control. It easily could happen
that I'm involved in such a discussion myself, without noticing that it
became grotesque. Fortunately this time I only lurked, so from an
outside POV it is easy for me, to comment this thread.


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Re: How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with Windows

Xen
In reply to this post by Peter Silva
On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Ralf Mardorf <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Fortunately "How to coordinate the clock when dual-booting with
> Windows" doesn't require idiotic fantasies based on sciolism gained
> from dumb TV reports about GTR and STR.

I rather think you are talking about me and not Peter.

But I think that in the end these are pretty fundamental issues,
particularly if you are going to paint the other choice as "crap" or
something similar.

Maybe it sounds trivial, but it currently inspires:

- the push in IPv6 / IP in general to do away with enclosed modular
networking (ie. NAT)

Many arguments of which are based on the "perfect sysadmin fallacy"
which implies that against all odds, the perfect sysadmin will still
perfectly configure a complicated system (ie. IPv6) and that any
subsequent security holes (even if they are many and prevalent) are just
the result of human incompetence (rather than a design that increases
the likelihood of mistakes).

To me modular (and relative addressing) versus "global scale" (and
absolute addressing) is a very significant topic which also (hence)
deals with DNS versus distributed DNS, and so on.

Linux in particular has never given any importance to proper _scoping_.

So it is not surprising to me that Linux people, who have a filesystem
without any sense of scoping whatsoever, and barely any "filtering" to
ensure users are not inundated with information,

would be strong proponents for "rational" "global" adressing mechanics.

This is relevant for:

- encapsulation in the FHS
- IPv6
- timekeeping

and so on.

The "push for uniformity" also defeats diversity and decentralisation.

"Common standards" in Linux often amount to "only one way of doing
things".

Gone is the era of building blocks.

I think that if you have no sympathy towards:
- a personal private network with private domains
- time kept in your own locality
- internal addresses that are not publicly routable
- a modular architecture where one solution may be replaced with another
- security by obscurity

Then I think you have lost touch with an important part of yourself that
is vital to designing good software.

Because, even though people are going to deny it, what software also
needs is "right brain" sensibility, and not just "left brain logic".

Of course "right brain" people are generally missing from Linux.

For example, one of the Unix principles is said to be:

"Rule of Economy: Programmer time is expensive; conserve it in
preference to machine time."

And yet shell scripting advocates often denounce "easy to read" in
favour of "fast to execute".

If anything, human resources are routinely wasted because of shabby
interfaces because they "ought to be good enough" (but they are only
good enough for a machine).

The paradox is that if you don't "waste" your time on improving
interfaces, you waste a lot more time in the long run.

Time invested in right-brain stuff pays off.

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