In the news: Eric S. Raymond shifts to Ubuntu

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In the news: Eric S. Raymond shifts to Ubuntu

Christian Jensen
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-February/msg01006.html

[quote]
This afternoon, I installed Edgy Eft on my main development machine --
from one CD, not five.  In less than three hours' work I was able to
recreate the key features of my day-to-day toolkit.  The
after-installation mass upgrade to current packages, always a
frightening prospect under Fedora, went off without a hitch.

I'm not expecting Ubuntu to be perfect, but I am now certain it will
be enough better to compensate me for the fact that I need to learn
a new set of administration tools.
 [/quote]


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Re: In the news: Eric S. Raymond shifts to Ubuntu

Eric Dunbar
On 21/02/07, Christian Pfeiffer Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-February/msg01006.html
>
> [quote]
> This afternoon, I installed Edgy Eft on my main development machine --
> from one CD, not five.  In less than three hours' work I was able to
> recreate the key features of my day-to-day toolkit.  The
> after-installation mass upgrade to current packages, always a
> frightening prospect under Fedora, went off without a hitch.
>
> I'm not expecting Ubuntu to be perfect, but I am now certain it will
> be enough better to compensate me for the fact that I need to learn
> a new set of administration tools.
>  [/quote]

[quote2]

If I thought the state of Fedora were actually improving, I might hang
in there.  But it isn't.  I've been on the fedora-devel list for
years, and the trend is clear.  The culture of the project's core
group has become steadily more unhealthy, more inward-looking, more
insistent on narrow "free software" ideological purity, and more
disconnected from the technical and evangelical challenges that must
be met to make Linux a world-changing success that liberates a
majority of computer users.

I have watched Ubuntu rise to these challenges as Fedora fell away
from them.  Canonical's recent deal with Linspire, which will give
Linux users legal access to WMF and other key proprietary codecs, is
precisely the sort of thing Red-Hat/Fedora could and should have taken
the lead in.  Not having done so bespeaks a failure of vision which I
now believe will condemn Fedora to a shrinking niche in the future.

[/quote2]

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Re: In the news: Eric S. Raymond shifts to Ubuntu

Frank McCormick
In reply to this post by Christian Jensen
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:07:04 +0100
Christian Pfeiffer Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-February/msg01006.html
>
>
> I'm not expecting Ubuntu to be perfect, but I am now certain it will
> be enough better to compensate me for the fact that I need to learn
> a new set of administration tools.



   Boy, if you think things get a little testy on this and other Ubuntu
(and Debian) lists.....read Redhats development list after ESR's
message !!!


Cheers

- -- It's what you learn after you know
    it all that makes the difference.
   
   
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Re: In the news: Eric S. Raymond shifts to Ubuntu

Pavel Rojtberg
In reply to this post by Christian Jensen
Christian Pfeiffer Jensen schrieb:

> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-February/msg01006.html
>
> [quote]
> This afternoon, I installed Edgy Eft on my main development machine --
> from one CD, not five.  In less than three hours' work I was able to
> recreate the key features of my day-to-day toolkit.  The
> after-installation mass upgrade to current packages, always a
> frightening prospect under Fedora, went off without a hitch.
>
> I'm not expecting Ubuntu to be perfect, but I am now certain it will
> be enough better to compensate me for the fact that I need to learn
> a new set of administration tools.
>  [/quote]

[wikipedia]
Critics in the free software movement have accused Raymond of
"hijacking" the free software movement. His rejection of the moral and
ethical arguments of Richard Stallman and the Free Software Foundation
in favor of a less idealistic (though arguably more pragmatic)
market-friendly stance has stoked political tensions in the community.
[/wikipedia]

... the waves of the closed source driver discussion ...

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Re: In the news: Eric S. Raymond shifts to Ubuntu

Eric Dunbar
On 21/02/07, Pavel Rojtberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Christian Pfeiffer Jensen schrieb:
> > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-February/msg01006.html
> >
> > [quote]
> > This afternoon, I installed Edgy Eft on my main development machine --
> > from one CD, not five.  In less than three hours' work I was able to
> > recreate the key features of my day-to-day toolkit.  The
> > after-installation mass upgrade to current packages, always a
> > frightening prospect under Fedora, went off without a hitch.
> >
> > I'm not expecting Ubuntu to be perfect, but I am now certain it will
> > be enough better to compensate me for the fact that I need to learn
> > a new set of administration tools.
> >  [/quote]
>
> [wikipedia]
> Critics in the free software movement have accused Raymond of
> "hijacking" the free software movement. His rejection of the moral and
> ethical arguments of Richard Stallman and the Free Software Foundation
> in favor of a less idealistic (though arguably more pragmatic)
> market-friendly stance has stoked political tensions in the community.
> [/wikipedia]

Political tensions are stoked whenever you get absolutists (aka
extremists) involved. I suspect the author of said piece was one of
those extremists given the lack of nuance -- the shade grey simply
doesn't exist in that mind set :-( :-( :-(. You're either "with us" or
"you're against us".

The most important part of ESR's post is:

"The culture of the project's core group has become steadily more
unhealthy, more inward-looking, more insistent on narrow "free
software" ideological purity, and more
disconnected from the technical and evangelical challenges that must
be met to make Linux a world-changing success that liberates a
majority of computer users."

It has to be able to liberate computer users, not provide some
ideological solace to a few nut jobs who'd like to "stick to their
principles" (the same type of problem as what exists with too many
devout religious individuals who'd rather stick to their
perverse/perverted principles than live in the real world with real
problems, real people, real suffering and real solutions).

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Re: In the news: Eric S. Raymond shifts to Ubuntu

Corey Burger
In reply to this post by Christian Jensen
On 2/21/07, Christian Pfeiffer Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-February/msg01006.html
>
> [quote]
> This afternoon, I installed Edgy Eft on my main development machine --
> from one CD, not five.  In less than three hours' work I was able to
> recreate the key features of my day-to-day toolkit.  The
> after-installation mass upgrade to current packages, always a
> frightening prospect under Fedora, went off without a hitch.
>
> I'm not expecting Ubuntu to be perfect, but I am now certain it will
> be enough better to compensate me for the fact that I need to learn
> a new set of administration tools.
>  [/quote]

ESR has a history of being quite confrontational. I just hope he
remembers the Ubuntu Code of Conduct while here.

Corey

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Re: In the news: Eric S. Raymond shifts to Ubuntu

Nathan Eckenrode
In reply to this post by Eric Dunbar
Eric Dunbar wrote:

> On 21/02/07, Christian Pfeiffer Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-February/msg01006.html

>>
>> [quote]
>> This afternoon, I installed Edgy Eft on my main development machine --
>> from one CD, not five.  In less than three hours' work I was able to
>> recreate the key features of my day-to-day toolkit.  The
>> after-installation mass upgrade to current packages, always a
>> frightening prospect under Fedora, went off without a hitch.
>>
>> I'm not expecting Ubuntu to be perfect, but I am now certain it will
>> be enough better to compensate me for the fact that I need to learn
>> a new set of administration tools.
>>  [/quote]
>
> [quote2]
>
> If I thought the state of Fedora were actually improving, I might hang
> in there.  But it isn't.  I've been on the fedora-devel list for
> years, and the trend is clear.  The culture of the project's core
> group has become steadily more unhealthy, more inward-looking, more
> insistent on narrow "free software" ideological purity, and more
> disconnected from the technical and evangelical challenges that must
> be met to make Linux a world-changing success that liberates a
> majority of computer users.
>
> I have watched Ubuntu rise to these challenges as Fedora fell away
> from them.  Canonical's recent deal with Linspire, which will give
> Linux users legal access to WMF and other key proprietary codecs, is
> precisely the sort of thing Red-Hat/Fedora could and should have taken
> the lead in.  Not having done so bespeaks a failure of vision which I
> now believe will condemn Fedora to a shrinking niche in the future.
>
> [/quote2]
I seem to recall that ESR has advocated actually this sort of thing in the
recent past. So it does not thoroughly shock me that he is making this
jump.


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Re: In the news: Eric S. Raymond shifts to Ubuntu

Joel Bryan Juliano
In reply to this post by Christian Jensen
On 2/21/07, Christian Pfeiffer Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-February/msg01006.html

[quote]
This afternoon, I installed Edgy Eft on my main development machine --
from one CD, not five.  In less than three hours' work I was able to
recreate the key features of my day-to-day toolkit.  The
after-installation mass upgrade to current packages, always a
frightening prospect under Fedora, went off without a hitch.

I'm not expecting Ubuntu to be perfect, but I am now certain it will
be enough better to compensate me for the fact that I need to learn
a new set of administration tools.
[/quote]

Ubuntu. "An African word meaning Humanity to others"

.... even for the person who just said African-Americans are responsible for 50% of the crimes in the US because they have mostly low IQ ....

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Re: In the news: Eric S. Raymond shifts to Ubuntu

Conrad Knauer
In reply to this post by Frank McCormick
On 2/21/07, Frank McCormick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-February/msg01006.html
>
>    Boy, if you think things get a little testy on this and other Ubuntu
> (and Debian) lists.....read Redhats development list after ESR's
> message !!!

I note some... interesting ideas... about Ubuntu, e.g.:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-February/msg01012.html

"IMHO, Linspire/Canonical means Canonical is seeking a way to earn
moneys with the inclusion of patented codecs on their free
distribution. Have you eared the term "victim of its own success"?
There will be a price to pay."

Okaaaay....  IMHO I don't think having Linspire based off Ubuntu is
going to hurt Ubuntu any more than it hurt Debian when it was based
off that.  Linspire clearly sees Ubuntu as an extra level of
refinement (http://net2.com/OSbuildingblocks.jpg), but the only real
benefit to Canonical that I can see is that it increases the mindshare
around Ubuntu as a standard distribution.

In the long run I don't see an Ubuntu-based Linspire/Freespire taking
off any more than the current Firefox-based Netscape (market share
<1%), but I do see this as the beginning of Linspire changing their
business model from offering/selling proprietary software for Linux as
part of a distro to them offering it to *any* distro
(http://www.cnr.com/).  One area where Linspire might do very well
would be if they distributed Linux-working versions of well-known
games (WoW springs to mind).

Also, from the same post, a comment about the number of disks:

"You should know you can use a boot disk to do a network install a
system. Five CD is aiming for people who don't have broadband
connection which is still the case on many countries."

Is it just me, or are the same people who are most likely to need five
CDs also the least likely to be able to get (e.g download) them?  I
know that I'm biased in favor or Ubuntu by the simple fact that its
the distro I use, but this seems to me to be a point that any neutral
observer would side with Ubuntu; I can understand distributing all the
packages anyone you could ever want, but the first disk really should
be able to install a base system.  Also, what if you're installing on
a system that has network hardware that doesn't 'just work' under
Linux (certain wi-fi springs to mind) or only has dial-up?  A single
install disk for a base system is also great if you're going to
distribute free CDs, since it significantly cuts down on costs :)

Then there's this post:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-February/msg01015.html

"That's all well and nice for Ubuntu which seems to be a desktop
centric OS.  But I've always seen Fedora as primarily a server
platform (given it's the basis for RHEL). And that is fine for me
because I don't want to play windows media. I want Apache, Fedora
Directory Service and a fast kernel. Web browsing and email are great
for a workstation but everything else is a luxury."

This part makes it clear why Fedora is not going to succeed as a
desktop OS.  Anyone who wants to use Linux instead of Windows or Mac
OS has no need for Apache or a minimalistic kernel that best suits it;
the 'luxuries' are what make a desktop OS a nice place to use a
computer.  I want no-hassle audio and video, rich-content internet and
wobbly windows would be a nice touch too ;)

But here's where he gets offensive:

"At the end of the day if I really "need" to see that video of the
Chimp falling out of the tree after smelling his finger then I'll drop
mplayer on from a public repo.  If you want that standard then yeah,
maybe Fedora isn't for you."

I'm sure comments like that are going to make ESR switch back from
Ubuntu even faster ;p

CK

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Re: In the news: Eric S. Raymond shifts to Ubuntu

Cybe R. Wizard-3
In reply to this post by Christian Jensen
Christian Pfeiffer Jensen <[hidden email]>  said:

> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-February/msg01006.html
>
> [quote]
> This afternoon, I installed Edgy Eft on my main development machine --
> from one CD, not five.  In less than three hours' work I was able to
> recreate the key features of my day-to-day toolkit.  The
> after-installation mass upgrade to current packages, always a
> frightening prospect under Fedora, went off without a hitch.
>
> I'm not expecting Ubuntu to be perfect, but I am now certain it will
> be enough better to compensate me for the fact that I need to learn
> a new set of administration tools.
>  [/quote]
>
Congratulations, Eric, and welcome to the future of Linux computing!

Cybe R. Wizard
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                "The Barsoom Project"

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Re: In the news: Eric S. Raymond shifts to Ubuntu

Senectus .
Ahh that was a good read :-)

I'll be interested to see if/what impact Eric decides to make here...


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Re: In the news: Eric S. Raymond shifts to Ubuntu

custom-5
On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 09:26 +0900, Senectus . wrote:

> I'll be interested to see if/what impact Eric decides to make here...

So far I like him. :)

He's in the camp that thinks of operating systems as things that meet a
business function (or leisure function, as it may be) in an imperfect
world, as opposed to 'a religion'. :)

Cheers,
Chanchao


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Re: In the news: Eric S. Raymond shifts to Ubuntu

Michael Richter-5
In reply to this post by Joel Bryan Juliano
On Thu, 2007-22-02 at 05:25 +0800, Joel Bryan Juliano wrote:
On 2/21/07, Christian Pfeiffer Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-February/msg01006.html

[quote]
This afternoon, I installed Edgy Eft on my main development machine --
from one CD, not five.  In less than three hours' work I was able to
recreate the key features of my day-to-day toolkit.  The
after-installation mass upgrade to current packages, always a
frightening prospect under Fedora, went off without a hitch.

I'm not expecting Ubuntu to be perfect, but I am now certain it will
be enough better to compensate me for the fact that I need to learn
a new set of administration tools.
[/quote]

Ubuntu. "An African word meaning Humanity to others"

.... even for the person who just said African-Americans are responsible for 50% of the crimes in the US because they have mostly low IQ ....

And so the character assassination begins as the purists get riled up once again.

Would the Stallmanites please identify themselves with a show of hands?  My killfile is feeling lonely here.
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Re: In the news: Eric S. Raymond shifts to Ubuntu

Peter Garrett
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:04:02 +0800
"Michael T. Richter" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> And so the character assassination begins as the purists get riled up
> once again.
>
> Would the Stallmanites please identify themselves with a show of hands?
> My killfile is feeling lonely here.

I think it's a bit more nuancé than you make it sound :)

There is a spectrum within the "community" from the extreme hard-line
"Freedom" end to the extreme pragmatist  "as long as it works" end.

Personally I am somewhere in between - not pure enough to run gNewSense ;-)
but in sympathy with much of the "Free as in Freedom" ideal. I think Ubuntu
is also somewhere in between.

Both Stallman and ESR have, at various times, made valid points, in my
view: - but there is much in both men's opinions and views with which I
disagree. That does not negate their contributions, even if some of their
statements set my teeth on edge ;)

Peter

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Re: In the news: Eric S. Raymond shifts to Ubuntu

Conrad Knauer
Just to help lighten the mood ;)

Everybody loves Eric Raymond
http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/

CK

On 2/22/07, Peter Garrett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:04:02 +0800
> "Michael T. Richter" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > And so the character assassination begins as the purists get riled up
> > once again.
> >
> > Would the Stallmanites please identify themselves with a show of hands?
> > My killfile is feeling lonely here.
>
> I think it's a bit more nuancé than you make it sound :)
>
> There is a spectrum within the "community" from the extreme hard-line
> "Freedom" end to the extreme pragmatist  "as long as it works" end.
>
> Personally I am somewhere in between - not pure enough to run gNewSense ;-)
> but in sympathy with much of the "Free as in Freedom" ideal. I think Ubuntu
> is also somewhere in between.
>
> Both Stallman and ESR have, at various times, made valid points, in my
> view: - but there is much in both men's opinions and views with which I
> disagree. That does not negate their contributions, even if some of their
> statements set my teeth on edge ;)
>
> Peter
>
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Re: In the news: Eric S. Raymond shifts to Ubuntu

Michael Richter-5
In reply to this post by Peter Garrett
On Thu, 2007-22-02 at 17:53 +1100, Peter Garrett wrote:
> Would the Stallmanites please identify themselves with a show of hands?
> My killfile is feeling lonely here.

I think it's a bit more nuancé than you make it sound :)

There are no subtle nuances to this tripe:

>>> Ubuntu. "An African word meaning Humanity to others"
>>> .... even for the person who just said African-Americans are responsible for 50% of the crimes in the US because they have mostly low IQ ....

This is character assassination, pure and simple.

There is a spectrum within the "community" from the extreme hard-line
"Freedom" end to the extreme pragmatist  "as long as it works" end.

And guess which end the character assassination comes from in this instance?

Both Stallman and ESR have, at various times, made valid points, in my
view: - but there is much in both men's opinions and views with which I
disagree. That does not negate their contributions, even if some of their
statements set my teeth on edge ;)

Agreed.  In both cases.  Stallman and ESR both have made such dunder-headed public statements or taken such dunder-headed public actions that I can only do the "laugh so I don't cry" routine.

Were Stallman to join the Ubuntu community, however, despite my personal distaste for the man, I would not be "greeting" him with his more... um... questionable statements or actions.

The request still stands: would the Stallmanistas (or perhaps just Stallmanists?) please give a show of hands?  I need to exercise the killfile.  It has been neglected for months.

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Re: In the news: Eric S. Raymond shifts to Ubuntu

Senectus .
heh, he took it to the next level...
http://enterprise.linux.com/enterprise/07/02/21/1340237.shtml?tid=23&tid=12


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Re: In the news: Eric S. Raymond shifts to Ubuntu

Peter Garrett
In reply to this post by Michael Richter-5
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:04:57 +0800
"Michael T. Richter" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There are no subtle nuances to this tripe:
>
>
>         >>> Ubuntu. "An African word meaning Humanity to others"
>         >>> .... even for the person who just said African-Americans are
>         responsible for 50% of the crimes in the US because they have
>         mostly low IQ ....

> This is character assassination, pure and simple.

These opinions expressed by ESR , (which I have read, I think on his
blog), *and*  the raising of them on this list, are distasteful to me. I
disagree strongly with both.

Just to clarify ...

Peter




>

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Re: In the news: Eric S. Raymond shifts to Ubuntu

Sridhar Dhanapalan
In reply to this post by Michael Richter-5
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, "Michael T. Richter" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, 2007-22-02 at 05:25 +0800, Joel Bryan Juliano wrote:
> > On 2/21/07, Christian Pfeiffer Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >        
> > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-February/msg01006.
> >html
> >
> >         [quote]
> >         This afternoon, I installed Edgy Eft on my main development
> >         machine --
> >         from one CD, not five.  In less than three hours' work I was
> >         able to
> >         recreate the key features of my day-to-day toolkit.  The
> >         after-installation mass upgrade to current packages, always a
> >         frightening prospect under Fedora, went off without a hitch.
> >
> >         I'm not expecting Ubuntu to be perfect, but I am now certain
> >         it will
> >         be enough better to compensate me for the fact that I need to
> >         learn
> >         a new set of administration tools.
> >         [/quote]
> >
> >
> > Ubuntu. "An African word meaning Humanity to others"
> >
> > .... even for the person who just said African-Americans are
> > responsible for 50% of the crimes in the US because they have mostly
> > low IQ ....
>
> And so the character assassination begins as the purists get riled up
> once again.
I suggest that you read his blog before making such sweeping accusations
yourself: http://esr.ibiblio.org/

ESR occasionally makes some excellent points, but he unfortunately chooses to
bury them in a mound of bigotry and narcissism. Hence, Everybody Loves Eric
Raymond: http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/


--
"Using the Altair 8800, Bill Gates and Paul Allen develop the first
programming language, and begin an extraordinary, history-making journey."
        - The Microsoft Timeline
                <http://www.microsoft.com/visitorcenter/timeline.htm>

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Re: In the news: Eric S. Raymond shifts to Ubuntu

Cybe R. Wizard-3
In reply to this post by Peter Garrett
Peter Garrett <[hidden email]>  said:
> These opinions expressed by ESR , (which I have read, I think on his
> blog), *and*  the raising of them on this list, are distasteful to
> me. I disagree strongly with both.
>
> Just to clarify ...
>
> Peter

I hope that your distaste for his ideas doesn't get in the way of your
acceptance of him into the Ubuntu community.  I find him refreshingly
honest if sometimes a bit harsh.  I'm glad he's come over and hope to
see him make important contributions.

Cybe R. Wizard
--
Nice computers don't go down.
        Larry Niven, Steven Barnes
                "The Barsoom Project"

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