Install to external (I think) SSD

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Install to external (I think) SSD

Grizzly-4
Hi all

I'm trying to show the advantage of Ubuntu (Xenial Xerus) to a friend who only
knows iBook (OS X Yosemite)

We made a live USB (64 bit) and that runs fine, bit he fears that as the
initial (grub ?) screen has such small text he could install over his OS and
also the Install icon wont stay away once up & running, so he wants to install
to an (external) SSD

Is this possible? and can it be done from the "normal" live USB install or does
it need special treatment

I run a lot of ububntu version sbut so far have not playerd with partitioning
leaving that to the USB installer

Any help please, I will be trying top do this later today

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Re: Install to external (I think) SSD

Xen
Grizzly schreef op 29-07-2017 13:48:

> Any help please, I will be trying top do this later today

The most important part is that most BIOSes can boot from whatever disk
you want that has a bootloader installed.

So you do not need to change the original harddisk to boot something
installed on a separate harddisk.

That said you can simply install on this other disk (SSD) without the
first disk connected; to be completely safe; and it will install like
regular system; do you connect them back as usual, then selecting the
second disk in the boot options of your BIOS will allow you to boot this
system directly no questions asked.

Often times there is a boot menu with something like F10, F12, or even
esc, at the boot prompt of your BIOS.

Now this does become tiresome but it is easy to do.

There are two more options.



1) If the secondary disk (SSD) is indeed connected as the first (or
chosen in the BIOS boot order as the first disk to boot from) then you
will obtain the GRUB menu from Linux by default when you boot up your
computer.

This menu can contain the Windows installation on the (now secondary)
disk as well. But there is a chance it might not work by default without
a manual fix. I mean to say that Linux will include this Windows
installation on the (now secondary) disk by default. Sometimes it
doesn't boot, but there is a fix for that though. What I mean to say is
that GRUB will swap the primary and secondary disk while selecting
Windows, so that Windows thinks it is booting from the first BIOS disk.
Sorry for the confusion here.

In general this just works with perhaps a small fix to apply.

The consequence is that when the person selects the Linux disk as the
first boot device in the BIOS, then user then will always get a GRUB
menu to boot with, and can select either Windows or Linux, the order of
which can be chosen in some way.

So what you get is the boot menu from the Linux disk (SSD) with the
Windows disk unharmed.


2) It is also possible to install the grub menu on any USB stick or SD
Card (the bootloader in fact) and use that USB stick or SD card as the
primary boot device. The bootloader will then read the grub menu from
the Linux disk and operate in exactly the same manner for the rest of
it.

However this is an additional option with usually few benefits over the
previous one except for the fact that it is a recovery mechanism for
always being able to boot Linux.



So the typical solution would be:

- original HDD containing Windows = BIOS disk 2.
- new SSD containing Linux = BIOS disk 1.
- the installation does not touch the original HDD.
- the boot menu is installed only on the SSD.
- the boot menu is activated only when the SSD is made the boot device.
- this can either be fixed or chosen using the F10/F12/Esc menu.
- if the original HDD is selected, Windows boots as normal with no
modifications whatsoever.

At that point you can:

- select in the BIOS to always boot Windows
- select in the BIOS to always get GRUB, at which point you can select
between Windows and Linux

and in all of this the Windows disk is never touched.

Regards.

(Basically it is a very good idea what you propose. Regards).

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Re: Install to external (I think) SSD

Ralf Mardorf-2
On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 17:45:18 +0200, Xen wrote:
>- the installation does not touch the original HDD.
>- the boot menu is installed only on the SSD.

But if the HDD shouldn't be disconnected, the installer much likely
writes grub to the HDD and might damage the iBook's boot loader, so
it's important to disconnect the HDD and later to generate a GRUB menu
with the required chainloader.

>- the boot menu is activated only when the SSD is made the boot device.
>- this can either be fixed or chosen using the F10/F12/Esc menu.
>- if the original HDD is selected, Windows boots as normal with no
>modifications whatsoever.



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Re: Install to external (I think) SSD

Xen
Ralf Mardorf schreef op 29-07-2017 18:43:
> On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 17:45:18 +0200, Xen wrote:
>> - the installation does not touch the original HDD.
>> - the boot menu is installed only on the SSD.
>
> But if the HDD shouldn't be disconnected, the installer much likely
> writes grub to the HDD and might damage the iBook's boot loader, so
> it's important to disconnect the HDD and later to generate a GRUB menu
> with the required chainloader.

Yeah, it might if you go with the default install, but you can choose
the bootloader destination right?

But it is indeed a choice to make, and might not happen by default.

So indeed it is something to watch out for.

Personally I wouldn't do that, I like living on the edge ;-).

Regards.

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Re: Install to external (I think) SSD

Grizzly-4
29 July 2017  at 19:04, Xen wrote:
Re: Install to external (I think) S (at least in part)

Update:

SSD was installed as the only disk (internal) then had 16.04.2 installed, it
was then moved to an external USB encloser, but then the MacBookPro cant see it
at boot time, we then tried an install from a USB stick to that same extermal
SSD (something else option), again MacBookPro cant see it at boot, and it
screwed the mac's boot with a Grub fail (fixed now)

>Ralf Mardorf schreef op 29-07-2017 18:43:
>> On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 17:45:18 +0200, Xen wrote:
>>> - the installation does not touch the original HDD.
>>> - the boot menu is installed only on the SSD.
>>
>> But if the HDD shouldn't be disconnected, the installer much likely
>> writes grub to the HDD and might damage the iBook's boot loader, so
>> it's important to disconnect the HDD and later to generate a GRUB menu
>> with the required chainloader.
>
>Yeah, it might if you go with the default install, but you can choose
>the bootloader destination right?
>
>But it is indeed a choice to make, and might not happen by default.
>
>So indeed it is something to watch out for.
>
>Personally I wouldn't do that, I like living on the edge ;-).
>
>Regards.
>
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Re: Install to external (I think) SSD

Xen
Grizzly schreef op 29-07-2017 23:14:

> 29 July 2017  at 19:04, Xen wrote:
> Re: Install to external (I think) S (at least in part)
>
> Update:
>
> SSD was installed as the only disk (internal) then had 16.04.2
> installed, it
> was then moved to an external USB encloser, but then the MacBookPro
> cant see it
> at boot time, we then tried an install from a USB stick to that same
> extermal
> SSD (something else option), again MacBookPro cant see it at boot, and
> it
> screwed the mac's boot with a Grub fail (fixed now)

Well I know nothing about MacBooks.

Isn't it weird that you can boot from USB stick but not USB disk?

I assume you are using the Option key to load the startup manager?

And you say it doesn't load.

MacBooks use EFI.

I do not know if you are currently using EFI but here is a post on
enabling it for a MacBook Pro for Debian, which should also work for
Ubuntu:

https://glandium.org/blog/?p=2830

You apparently need to create a small partition anywhere on the SSD of
some 9MB for the EFI if you do not already have it, and it has to be a
HFS+ partition.

Then you basically run grub-install on it which will create a necessary
boot file. Then you need to compile something and with a few additional
steps you have an EFI partition with the required files that will be
recognised by the Mac.

Provided you have to use EFI.

You could do all of this from the "try Ubuntu" part of the installer.

You would need to install some additional packages such as
"build-essential" to be able to compile.

If you installed EFI image you would already have an EFI partition but
not suitable for a Mac.

That's all I can say about this.

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Re: Install to external (I think) SSD

Grizzly-4
29 July 2017  at 23:58, Xen wrote:
Re: Install to external (I think) S (at least in part)

>Well I know nothing about MacBooks.

>Isn't it weird that you can boot from USB stick but not USB disk?

Very

>I assume you are using the Option key to load the startup manager?

>And you say it doesn't load.

Yeh but SSD is not even seen  

>MacBooks use EFI.

>I do not know if you are currently using EFI but here is a post on
>enabling it for a MacBook Pro for Debian, which should also work for
>Ubuntu:

I'll study, I don't have a MacBook to play with, I guess the Ubuntu parts I can
do but testing if it works on the Mac will have to wait

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Re: Install to external (I think) SSD

Xen
Grizzly schreef op 30-07-2017 1:03:
> 29 July 2017  at 23:58, Xen wrote:
> Re: Install to external (I think) S (at least in part)
>
>> Well I know nothing about MacBooks.
>
>> Isn't it weird that you can boot from USB stick but not USB disk?
>
> Very

For what it's worth: the stick would use a different bootloader than
GRUB.

>> I assume you are using the Option key to load the startup manager?
>
>> And you say it doesn't load.
>
> Yeh but SSD is not even seen

It would only show harddisks after it finds an appropriate bootloader on
them.

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Re: Install to external (I think) SSD

Grizzly-4
30 July 2017  at 3:09, Xen wrote:
Re: Install to external (I think) SSD (at least in part)

>Grizzly schreef op 30-07-2017 1:03:
>> 29 July 2017  at 23:58, Xen wrote:
>> Re: Install to external (I think) S (at least in part)
 
>>> Well I know nothing about MacBooks.
 
>>> Isn't it weird that you can boot from USB stick but not USB disk?
 
>> Very

>For what it's worth: the stick would use a different bootloader than
>GRUB.

>>> I assume you are using the Option key to load the startup manager?
 
>>> And you say it doesn't load.
 
>> Yeh but SSD is not even seen

>It would only show harddisks after it finds an appropriate bootloader on
>them.

What really surprises me is that this "seems" to have been an issue for a long
time, and we usually have an easy(ish) solution in short order



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Re: Install to external (I think) SSD

Ralf Mardorf-2
On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 06:48:22 +0100, Grizzly wrote:
>30 July 2017  at 3:09, Xen wrote:
>>It would only show harddisks after it finds an appropriate bootloader
>>on them.

Hi,

I suspect it should show all attached hard disks, since a hard disk
could contain data and nothing bootable at all.

>What really surprises me is that this "seems" to have been an issue
>for a long time, and we usually have an easy(ish) solution in short
>order

People usually don't buy a new Apple computer to install Linux on it.
What some people might want to do, is installing Ubuntu on a very old
Apple computer. The iBook's architecture is 32-bit PPC, IOW it is a
very old computer. 1. I seriously doubt that you need EFI. 2. On Ubuntu
32-bit PPC architecture unlikely has got a future. This explains why
finding solutions isn't that easy. 1. A small community of Apple PPC
users. 2. If you install it today, there unlikely will be a release
upgrade available in the future.

The latest mails in the ubuntu-powerpc team mailing list archive is from
last year.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: Install to external (I think) SSD

Grizzly-4
30 July 2017  at 9:35, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
Re: Install to external (I think) S (at least in part)

>On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 06:48:22 +0100, Grizzly wrote:

>I suspect it should show all attached hard disks, since a hard disk
>could contain data and nothing bootable at all.

As a Windows  & Ubuntu user that is what I would have expected, a failure to
boot maybe but at least it should "see" the dam thing ;->)

>>What really surprises me is that this "seems" to have been an issue
>>for a long time, and we usually have an easy(ish) solution in short
>>order

>People usually don't buy a new Apple computer to install Linux on it.
>What some people might want to do, is installing Ubuntu on a very old
>Apple computer. The iBook's architecture is 32-bit PPC, IOW it is a
>very old computer.

That was my error (I'm no Apple User), it's a new(ish) MacBook deffinatly
64bit, 8Gb ram, the owner wants to have the advantage of Ubuntu OS (Read/Write
to other disk formats for one) but not (really NOT) affect his Apple OS in any
way what-so-ever,

So to start I got him using Xenial from a live USB, but as would be expected he
then started to make changes and want a few extras so he tried to use the
installer to put Xenial on an SSD (following a UTube video  :-<) so he managed
to kill the live USB (don't ask how, I cant work it out either)

I managed to get Xenial on that same SSD and it boots on all my lappies &
deskies but is not even seen (by boot option key?) on the MacBook



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Re: Install to external (I think) SSD

Xen
In reply to this post by Ralf Mardorf-2
Ralf Mardorf schreef op 30-07-2017 9:35:
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 06:48:22 +0100, Grizzly wrote:
>> 30 July 2017  at 3:09, Xen wrote:
>>> It would only show harddisks after it finds an appropriate bootloader
>>> on them.
>
> Hi,
>
> I suspect it should show all attached hard disks, since a hard disk
> could contain data and nothing bootable at all.

I was talking about the Startup Manager that shows up during boot.

> People usually don't buy a new Apple computer to install Linux on it.
> What some people might want to do, is installing Ubuntu on a very old
> Apple computer. The iBook's architecture is 32-bit PPC, IOW it is a
> very old computer. 1. I seriously doubt that you need EFI. 2. On Ubuntu
> 32-bit PPC architecture unlikely has got a future. This explains why
> finding solutions isn't that easy. 1. A small community of Apple PPC
> users. 2. If you install it today, there unlikely will be a release
> upgrade available in the future.

MacBooks are probably 64-bit Intel based.

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Re: Install to external (I think) SSD

Ralf Mardorf-2
On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 10:23:34 +0200, Xen wrote:
>I was talking about the Startup Manager that shows up during boot.

Hi,

I suspect that it usually shows all hardware that could be used as a
bootable device, but it doesn't check if the device has got a
bootloader installed, but indeed, you never know.

>MacBooks are probably 64-bit Intel based.

Actually the OP first mentioned an "iBook" [1],[2] and not a "MacBook",
OTOH OS X Yosemite requires 64-bit architecture [3] and later he
indeed mentioned a MacBookPro [4].

Regards,
Ralf

[1]
On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 12:48:53 +0100, Grizzly wrote:
>I'm trying to show the advantage of Ubuntu (Xenial Xerus) to a friend
>who only knows iBook (OS X Yosemite)

[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBook

[3]
"Platforms x86-64"
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS_X_Yosemite

[4]
On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 22:14:22 +0100, Grizzly wrote:
>MacBookPro


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Re: Install to external (I think) SSD

Ralf Mardorf-2
In reply to this post by Grizzly-4
On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 08:24:36 +0100, Grizzly wrote:
>That was my error (I'm no Apple User), it's a new(ish) MacBook

Hi,

in the meantime I noticed it. This could happen. PowerBook, iBook and
MacBook didn't mean anything to me, too, but regarding a possible EFI
issue, I googled for "iBook Wiki", since you mentioned it by your first
mail.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: Install to external (I think) SSD

Xen
In reply to this post by Ralf Mardorf-2
Ralf Mardorf schreef op 30-07-2017 10:43:
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2017 10:23:34 +0200, Xen wrote:
>> I was talking about the Startup Manager that shows up during boot.
>
> Hi,
>
> I suspect that it usually shows all hardware that could be used as a
> bootable device, but it doesn't check if the device has got a
> bootloader installed, but indeed, you never know.

Otherwise all these steps wouldn't be necessary (for EFI).

> Actually the OP first mentioned an "iBook" [1],[2] and not a "MacBook",
> OTOH OS X Yosemite requires 64-bit architecture [3] and later he
> indeed mentioned a MacBookPro [4].

Skipped that, but iBooks are very old and the Clamshells could not even
run Mac OS 10.4 ;-).

The latest are from 2005, I doubt this would be the case here :p.

No one in his right mind would still be using an older Mac since Apple
aggressively pushes its OS X upgrades and older versions can't run much
software.

But anyway, you are distracting here :p.

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Re: Install to external (I think) SSD

Xen
In reply to this post by Grizzly-4
Grizzly schreef op 30-07-2017 9:24:

> I managed to get Xenial on that same SSD and it boots on all my lappies
> &
> deskies but is not even seen (by boot option key?) on the MacBook

So you need a special HFS+ partition as said.

Makes sense to me.

The Mac will look for such a partition and a "mach_kernel" file and then
tries to find an icon to show to its user.

It also locates the EFI firmware that way.

But you haven't told us whether you installed in EFI mode or not (I
suppose there is only EFI mode).

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Re: Install to external (I think) SSD

Grizzly-4
In reply to this post by Ralf Mardorf-2
30 July 2017  at 10:43, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
Re: Install to external (I think) S (at least in part)

>Actually the OP first mentioned an "iBook" [1],[2] and not a "MacBook",
>OTOH OS X Yosemite requires 64-bit architecture [3] and later he
>indeed mentioned a MacBookPro [4].

Yep my bad, I was using iBook more as a generic term (pod, pad, phone, rac) the
only bit I knew was the OS as my user called it "Yosh E Might"


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Re: Install to external (I think) SSD

Grizzly-4
In reply to this post by Xen
30 July 2017  at 10:59, Xen wrote:
Re: Install to external (I think) S (at least in part)

>So you need a special HFS+ partition as said.

>Makes sense to me.

>The Mac will look for such a partition and a "mach_kernel" file and then
>tries to find an icon to show to its user.

>It also locates the EFI firmware that way.

>But you haven't told us whether you installed in EFI mode or not (I
>suppose there is only EFI mode).

When the (first) instal from the actual Mac was done I was not there (blame
youtube), my install was from a Compaq Presario M2000 (without a HD) when I did
the next install with user I didn't "see" anywhere a choice to EFI or Not EFI,
but iot did fry the Mac's boot with a grub error (cured in the usual way, ask
if you need this) if I had a MAC to hand I could play and (probably) get the
thing working



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