Installation Media and supportability of i386 in 18.04 LTS Re: Ubuntu Desktop on i386

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Installation Media and supportability of i386 in 18.04 LTS Re: Ubuntu Desktop on i386

Josh DuBois
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Dimitri John Ledkov <xnox at ubuntu.com> wrote:

> 18.10+:
> * Stop providing i386 port
> * Run legacy i386 only application in snaps / containers / virtual machines

In terms of running legacy i386 applications in 
snaps / containers / VMs only, Wine is a major user of 32-bit 
libraries which I didn't seen mentioned on this thread.  Many of the 
apps people run with Wine are legacy 32-bit only Windows applications 
where recompiling to 64-bit is simply not an option.

Wine users should be fine using a 64-bit .iso image for install purposes, 
but the need to package a full set of 32-bit libraries would be a major 
burden for wine packagers.  In particular Wine needs access to the graphics 
stack, the 32-bit version of which was mentioned in this thread as possibly expendable. 
By way of disclosure, I am the product manager for CodeWeavers' CrossOver, a 
commercial wrapper for Wine.  I think all Wine users would be negatively impacted 
if 32-bit libraries were no longer available from Ubuntu, however.  Please keep 
that in mind as you decide when and whether to drop 32-bit libraries or merely 
cease building 32-bit install .isos.  

We'd really like to have the libraries stick around.

Thanks, 

  Josh


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Re: Installation Media and supportability of i386 in 18.04 LTS Re: Ubuntu Desktop on i386

Bryan Quigley-2
On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 2:34 PM, Josh DuBois <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Dimitri John Ledkov <xnox at ubuntu.com>
> wrote:
>
>> 18.10+:
>> * Stop providing i386 port
>> * Run legacy i386 only application in snaps / containers / virtual
>> machines
>
> In terms of running legacy i386 applications in
> snaps / containers / VMs only, Wine is a major user of 32-bit
> libraries which I didn't seen mentioned on this thread.  Many of the
> apps people run with Wine are legacy 32-bit only Windows applications
> where recompiling to 64-bit is simply not an option.

Wine hasn't been mentioned publicly but it was definitely mentioned a
lot in the survey I did.   We certainly want to make sure users can
keep using it.

> Wine users should be fine using a 64-bit .iso image for install purposes,
> but the need to package a full set of 32-bit libraries would be a major
> burden for wine packagers.  In particular Wine needs access to the graphics
> stack, the 32-bit version of which was mentioned in this thread as possibly
> expendable.

That's certainly something we would need to look into.

> By way of disclosure, I am the product manager for CodeWeavers' CrossOver, a
> commercial wrapper for Wine.  I think all Wine users would be negatively
> impacted
> if 32-bit libraries were no longer available from Ubuntu, however.  Please
> keep
> that in mind as you decide when and whether to drop 32-bit libraries or
> merely
> cease building 32-bit install .isos.
>
> We'd really like to have the libraries stick around.

It's actually even more complicated than that.  Wine depends on
Multiarch for building itself in Debian/Ubuntu.  For instance when I
install wine, I'm actually installing both a 32-bit and 64-bit binary
of wine.

I could see us:
* Determine Snappy is the best way to distribute Wine (which would
require the bundling of 32-bit libs I think).
* Keep a small amount of i386 libs/apps in 18.10+ including whatever
it takes to build/run Wine (but drop the majority of packages)
* Change Wine a bit to make this easier (no idea what this would
entail, but we have 2+ years).

In any case, I'm not going to push for dropping the i386 port until we
have a good way for Wine to work. As mentioned we aren't planning to
really consider that until 2018.  The focus now is purely on dropping
32-bit install isos and select related packages.

Thanks!
Bryan

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Re: Installation Media and supportability of i386 in 18.04 LTS Re: Ubuntu Desktop on i386

Josh DuBois
On 7/11/16 11:17 AM, Bryan Quigley wrote:

> I could see us:
> * Determine Snappy is the best way to distribute Wine (which would
> require the bundling of 32-bit libs I think).
> * Keep a small amount of i386 libs/apps in 18.10+ including whatever
> it takes to build/run Wine (but drop the majority of packages)
> * Change Wine a bit to make this easier (no idea what this would
> entail, but we have 2+ years).
> In any case, I'm not going to push for dropping the i386 port until we
> have a good way for Wine to work. As mentioned we aren't planning to
> really consider that until 2018.  The focus now is purely on dropping
> 32-bit install isos and select related packages.
I'm glad to know people responded to your survey by mentioning Wine and
that it's being considered.  If you
do end up with ideas of how to change Wine to make things easier, I of
course encourage you to mention
these to the Wine community on [hidden email].  I mentioned this
issue on that list and I will probably mention your reply there as well
(cross-posting didn't seem appropriate in this instance, especially
since the Ubuntu list is moderated).  If there is something the Wine
community can do to make this easier for you, please don't hesitate to
let us know.

Thanks again for your response.  I am sure it is important to Wine that
we continue to be able to work on Ubuntu.

Regards,

   Josh


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Re: Installation Media and supportability of i386 in 18.04 LTS Re: Ubuntu Desktop on i386

Colin Watson
In reply to this post by Bryan Quigley-2
On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 12:17:48PM -0400, Bryan Quigley wrote:
> * Keep a small amount of i386 libs/apps in 18.10+ including whatever
> it takes to build/run Wine (but drop the majority of packages)

I'd just like to point out that any solution involving selective package
building will likely be a nightmare to maintain at both the Launchpad
and Foundations level; we've always steered well clear of doing this for
ports in the past and we have nothing like the infrastructure needed to
control selective building in a sensible way (adding explicit
Architecture fields to several thousand source packages doesn't count as
"sensible").  Of course what you choose to *support* is a quite
different matter.

I would strongly prefer to keep the port building as normal, but
deemphasise it in whatever ways are useful to discourage people from
using it, and perhaps not worry too much about failures further up the
stack.

--
Colin Watson                                       [[hidden email]]

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Re: Installation Media and supportability of i386 in 18.04 LTS Re: Ubuntu Desktop on i386

Mark Shuttleworth-3
On 12/07/16 08:52, Colin Watson wrote:
> I would strongly prefer to keep the port building as normal, but
> deemphasise it in whatever ways are useful to discourage people from
> using it, and perhaps not worry too much about failures further up the
> stack.

+1

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Re: Installation Media and supportability of i386 in 18.04 LTS Re: Ubuntu Desktop on i386

Khurshid Alam
Hi,

It's a bit sudden for us. I did not find any prior announcement or discussion (before 16.04 release) that Canonical would drop i386 images right after 16.04 LTS.

We, at Medo, use Compaq 610 and Dell Vostro (core2duo). Although they are capable of running 64 bit software, we use 32 bit images because of memory constraint, they all come with only 2GB RAM. And on some older hardware we run Ubuntu Mate. We are slowly moving into 64 bit computing, but I don't think it will happen before 2018/20. 

Our work requires that we stay on latest LTS all the time (and sometime on latest non LTS) and honestly we were hoping that we could go on using i386 at least till 18.04 LTS without upgrading the hardware. I mean I can understand that it can happen after 18.04, but dropping i386 builds right now? Right from 16.10? it's all a bit sudden.

I hope Canonical is considering small organizations like us and analyzing all the options carefully.


Thank You.

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