Kmenu and KDE4

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Kmenu and KDE4

Billie Walsh
Following the link given by Joe in his thread I found this golden nugget:

>
>         What's the deal with the K menu? It's big and ugly!
>
> During the development of KDE 4.0, different approaches for a K menu
> (application launcher) were tried. Some projects, like Raptor, were
> ambitious but there was no way they could be completed on time. At the
> time, one developer ported SUSE Linux's application launcher (Kickoff)
> to the new KDE architecture. As it was the most ready and feature
> complete (not to mention the product of usability testing) it was
> chosen to be the default menu. If you don't like it, the traditional
> K-menu is available as well. Also, some alternative menu systems have
> been announced (Lancelot, Raptor), but at the time of writing they're
> still in development.
>

It's very obvious that the devs don't pay attention to any user lists.
They should. If they had they wouldn't have been so quick to choose
SUSE's Kickoff. There was a major flap when SUSE released it on the SUSE
users lists. The majority of SUSE users don't use it and hate it.

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Lindsay Mathieson
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:34:27 am Billie Walsh wrote:
> There was a major flap when SUSE released it on the SUSE
> users lists. The majority of SUSE users don't use it and hate it.

How do you know that? has anyone surveyed them? A big fuss on the mailing list
only translates into a fraction of users.

The number of people who regularly post here is pretty few really.

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Billie Walsh
Lindsay Mathieson wrote:

> On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:34:27 am Billie Walsh wrote:
>  
>> There was a major flap when SUSE released it on the SUSE
>> users lists. The majority of SUSE users don't use it and hate it.
>>    
>
> How do you know that? has anyone surveyed them? A big fuss on the mailing list
> only translates into a fraction of users.
>
> The number of people who regularly post here is pretty few really.
>
>  
You obviously weren't there for the mayhem. It was pretty ugly. They
called into question the parenthood of just about everyone at SUSE.
There were more than just a few posters. There were a _LOT_.

Besides a "majority" is only 51%. So, if only just over half the SUSE
users don't use it..........

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Knapp
In reply to this post by Lindsay Mathieson
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 3:44 PM, Lindsay Mathieson
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:34:27 am Billie Walsh wrote:
>> There was a major flap when SUSE released it on the SUSE
>> users lists. The majority of SUSE users don't use it and hate it.
>
> How do you know that? has anyone surveyed them? A big fuss on the mailing list
> only translates into a fraction of users.
>
> The number of people who regularly post here is pretty few really.
>
> --
> Lindsay Mathieson
> http://members.optusnet.com.au/~blackpaw1/album

The number that post are few but very often I hear a lot of people
step up and agree with one side or the other when asked. It may be a
small group but I think they bring up the good and the bad that all
see and don't talk about much. A good example is the KDE 4 threads
here. Some liked it and some did not but there were solid trends about
the types of people taking each side. I think you can lean a lot by
reading the lists.

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

claydoh
In reply to this post by Billie Walsh
On Sat December 20 2008 9:34:27 am Billie Walsh wrote:
>
> It's very obvious that the devs don't pay attention to any user lists.
> They should. If they had they wouldn't have been so quick to choose
> SUSE's Kickoff. There was a major flap when SUSE released it on the SUSE
> users lists. The majority of SUSE users don't use it and hate it.
>
yes, from what I hear from discussions with various devs, they do not usually
follow <foo>-user lists, as they are generally supposed to be for user-to-user
support..

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

claydoh
In reply to this post by Billie Walsh
On Sat December 20 2008 10:08:21 am Billie Walsh wrote:
>
> You obviously weren't there for the mayhem. It was pretty ugly. They
> called into question the parenthood of just about everyone at SUSE.
> There were more than just a few posters. There were a _LOT_.
>

Another reason for them not to follow a user list, unfortunately :(

> Besides a "majority" is only 51%. So, if only just over half the SUSE
> users don't use it..........
......the remaining 49% are irrelevant?

With no real way to gauge this sort of thing, majority, minority, plurality,
quorum, etc become meaningless terms
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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Billie Walsh
In reply to this post by claydoh
Clay Weber wrote:

> On Sat December 20 2008 9:34:27 am Billie Walsh wrote:
>  
>> It's very obvious that the devs don't pay attention to any user lists.
>> They should. If they had they wouldn't have been so quick to choose
>> SUSE's Kickoff. There was a major flap when SUSE released it on the SUSE
>> users lists. The majority of SUSE users don't use it and hate it.
>>
>>    
> yes, from what I hear from discussions with various devs, they do not usually
> follow <foo>-user lists, as they are generally supposed to be for user-to-user
> support..
>
>  

I don't know. I would think that if I was poring heart and soul into
something for others to use I would like to have some sort of indication
of their feelings about what I'm doing. If I'm not going in the
direction that is most beneficial then I would like to think I would
take it that direction. It's kind of a customer service type of thing.
If your a retail business and you stop listening to the customers needs
and start dictating to the customer, well, there's another store just
down the street. I've already seen many, at least threatening to, jump
off the KDE ship over this new KDE. There's another interface available.

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

claydoh
On Sat December 20 2008 4:00:26 pm Billie Walsh wrote:

> Clay Weber wrote:
> > On Sat December 20 2008 9:34:27 am Billie Walsh wrote:
> >> It's very obvious that the devs don't pay attention to any user lists.
> >> They should. If they had they wouldn't have been so quick to choose
> >> SUSE's Kickoff. There was a major flap when SUSE released it on the SUSE
> >> users lists. The majority of SUSE users don't use it and hate it.
> >
> > yes, from what I hear from discussions with various devs, they do not
> > usually follow <foo>-user lists, as they are generally supposed to be for
> > user-to-user support..
>
> I don't know. I would think that if I was poring heart and soul into
> something for others to use I would like to have some sort of indication
> of their feelings about what I'm doing. If I'm not going in the
> direction that is most beneficial then I would like to think I would
> take it that direction. It's kind of a customer service type of thing.
> If your a retail business and you stop listening to the customers needs
> and start dictating to the customer, well, there's another store just
> down the street. I've already seen many, at least threatening to, jump
> off the KDE ship over this new KDE. There's another interface available.
>
> --
> Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans.

Unfortunately, that is a bad analogy as the 'customer' and 'retail business'
concepts do not really fit, as each individual person who contributes (in
whatever capacity) to an open source project does  so for their own personal
reasons, even in a project as large in scope as KDE. They are not necessarily
tied to 'customer service' if you will.

http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/category/kde/
the above link, and the comments, show some good insight from both sides in
relation to Lancelot.

Also please not that I am not necessarily disagreeing with you on the overall
subject at hand.

Where/how do non-contributing users properly and sanely voice their concerns
where the developers can easily see them?

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Knapp
> Where/how do non-contributing users properly and sanely voice their concerns
> where the developers can easily see them?
>
> --
> Clay Weber

IMOHO, a person that voices their concerns IS a contributing user/dev.
I do open dev work and I do it because I like to write. But, it is
very nice to have others like what you write. I feel that all projects
should do research to learn what is needed/wanted by the users. It is
sad that more of this is not done and USED. A great place to start
this research is a list like this plus a few serverys of users. I
think the real problem is that programmers are not into this sort of
work and there are not enough people that are to go around. Maybe this
sort of work is not as fun as programming, especially if the
programmers don't respect and use it.
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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Art Alexion-3
In reply to this post by Billie Walsh
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 9:34 AM, Billie Walsh <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Following the link given by Joe in his thread I found this golden nugget:
>
>>
>>         What's the deal with the K menu? It's big and ugly!

I'm one of those people who don't even like the "classic" Kmenu (or
any Start menu actually).  I loved katapult, and can live with its
merger into alt+F2.  What I miss is QuickLauncher.  I can add
launchers to the panel with KDE 4.1, but the icons  are so big, they
take up too much space.  Is there a way to make them smaller so that I
can fit two rows?  I noticed with my 3.5 and 4.1 machines side by side
that 8 launchers on the 3.5 panel take up the same space as one and a
half take up on 4.1.


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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Lindsay Mathieson
In reply to this post by Knapp
Users do not drive innovation. If it was left entirely to users interfaces
would *never* change. Sometimes developers have to role the dice and take a
dive into the unknown.

I say this as a user (of KDE) and a developer (of unrelated projects). There's
a lot I would have done differently with KDE4 but overall I applaud the
chutzpah of the project. Interesting times are ahead for KDE.


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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Billie Walsh
In reply to this post by claydoh
Clay Weber wrote:

> On Sat December 20 2008 4:00:26 pm Billie Walsh wrote:
>  
>> Clay Weber wrote:
>>    
>>> On Sat December 20 2008 9:34:27 am Billie Walsh wrote:
>>>      
>>>> It's very obvious that the devs don't pay attention to any user lists.
>>>> They should. If they had they wouldn't have been so quick to choose
>>>> SUSE's Kickoff. There was a major flap when SUSE released it on the SUSE
>>>> users lists. The majority of SUSE users don't use it and hate it.
>>>>        
>>> yes, from what I hear from discussions with various devs, they do not
>>> usually follow <foo>-user lists, as they are generally supposed to be for
>>> user-to-user support..
>>>      
>> I don't know. I would think that if I was poring heart and soul into
>> something for others to use I would like to have some sort of indication
>> of their feelings about what I'm doing. If I'm not going in the
>> direction that is most beneficial then I would like to think I would
>> take it that direction. It's kind of a customer service type of thing.
>> If your a retail business and you stop listening to the customers needs
>> and start dictating to the customer, well, there's another store just
>> down the street. I've already seen many, at least threatening to, jump
>> off the KDE ship over this new KDE. There's another interface available.
>>
>> --
>> Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans.
>>    
>
> Unfortunately, that is a bad analogy as the 'customer' and 'retail business'
> concepts do not really fit, as each individual person who contributes (in
> whatever capacity) to an open source project does  so for their own personal
> reasons, even in a project as large in scope as KDE. They are not necessarily
> tied to 'customer service' if you will.
>
> http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/category/kde/
> the above link, and the comments, show some good insight from both sides in
> relation to Lancelot.
>
> Also please not that I am not necessarily disagreeing with you on the overall
> subject at hand.
>
> Where/how do non-contributing users properly and sanely voice their concerns
> where the developers can easily see them?
>
>  

Why is it a bad analogy. The devs, one, two, a dozen, have a product
they want users, customers, to use. As long as the users are happy they
use the product of the devs labors. When the devs stop making a product
the users are happy with the users will go to another product. When the
users stop using the product of the devs labors what is the point of
making it any more. The devs provide a service to the users, a workable
desktop. The users "pay" for this with their "thanks" [ probably not
often enough ], bug reports, requests for new services, and suggestions
for improvement.

I'm not so sure I completely buy the "I only do it for myself" line.
They might do it for their own use, but then why put it out for the
world to use. There has to be some satisfaction that hundred, thousands,
millions (?) find pleasure in your labors. You do it about as much for
them as for yourself.

Is there _really_ such a thing as a "non-contributing user". Some might
contribute more than others but almost everybody contributes in some
way. There have been many discussions on this list that have developed
into bug reports. Not always posted by the person that had the problem,
but a bug gets posted because they "contributed" their problem to the
list. Maybe today I have a problem and get help. Maybe tomorrow someone
else has a problem and I can help "fix" it in some small way. I think we
all contribute in some way. Maybe not directly, but still take part in
making this work.

I think we are having a nice discussion.

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Art Alexion-3
In reply to this post by Lindsay Mathieson
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 7:05 PM, Lindsay Mathieson
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Interesting times are ahead for KDE.
>

I always thought the phrase, "May you live in interesting times", was
a curse ;^)



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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Billie Walsh
Art Alexion wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 7:05 PM, Lindsay Mathieson
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> Interesting times are ahead for KDE.
>>
>>    
>
> I always thought the phrase, "May you live in interesting times", was
> a curse ;^)
>  

Are you sure it isn't. Perhaps that's what he meant.

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

claydoh
In reply to this post by Billie Walsh
On Sat December 20 2008 7:11:26 pm Billie Walsh wrote:

> Why is it a bad analogy. The devs, one, two, a dozen, have a product
> they want users, customers, to use. As long as the users are happy they
> use the product of the devs labors. When the devs stop making a product
> the users are happy with the users will go to another product. When the
> users stop using the product of the devs labors what is the point of
> making it any more. The devs provide a service to the users, a workable
> desktop. The users "pay" for this with their "thanks" [ probably not
> often enough ], bug reports, requests for new services, and suggestions
> for improvement.

Because, no matter what the motivation, they are not truly beholden to end
users 100%. They don't demand or expect anything generally speaking, imo.

>
> I'm not so sure I completely buy the "I only do it for myself" line.
> They might do it for their own use, but then why put it out for the
> world to use. There has to be some satisfaction that hundred, thousands,
> millions (?) find pleasure in your labors. You do it about as much for
> them as for yourself.

"I only do it for myself" doesn't exclude that satisfaction, at least that's
how I am taking it to mean in many cases.

> Is there _really_ such a thing as a "non-contributing user".

My wife makes one ;)

> Some might
> contribute more than others but almost everybody contributes in some
> way. There have been many discussions on this list that have developed
> into bug reports. Not always posted by the person that had the problem,
> but a bug gets posted because they "contributed" their problem to the
> list. Maybe today I have a problem and get help. Maybe tomorrow someone
> else has a problem and I can help "fix" it in some small way. I think we
> all contribute in some way. Maybe not directly, but still take part in
> making this work.
>
> I think we are having a nice discussion.

 So do I :)

> --
> Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans.

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Shabakthanai
In reply to this post by Lindsay Mathieson
On Saturday 20 December 2008 7:05:40 pm Lindsay Mathieson wrote:
> Users do not drive innovation. If it was left entirely to users interfaces
> would *never* change. Sometimes developers have to role the dice and take a
> dive into the unknown.
>
> I say this as a user (of KDE) and a developer (of unrelated projects).
> There's a lot I would have done differently with KDE4 but overall I applaud
> the chutzpah of the project. Interesting times are ahead for KDE.

As little as I know, I agree completely.  Playing it safe in the comfort zone
is like swamp water.

Steven

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Jonas Norlander
In reply to this post by Art Alexion-3
2008/12/21 Art Alexion <[hidden email]>:
> I'm one of those people who don't even like the "classic" Kmenu (or
> any Start menu actually).  I loved katapult, and can live with its
> merger into alt+F2.  What I miss is QuickLauncher.  I can add
> launchers to the panel with KDE 4.1, but the icons  are so big, they
> take up too much space.  Is there a way to make them smaller so that I
> can fit two rows?  I noticed with my 3.5 and 4.1 machines side by side
> that 8 launchers on the 3.5 panel take up the same space as one and a
> half take up on 4.1.
>

There is a Quicklaunch plasmoid if you don't mind compile it yourself.
http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/QuickLauncher+Applet?content=78061

/ Jonas

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Knapp
In reply to this post by Shabakthanai
On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 4:13 AM, Steven Vollom
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Saturday 20 December 2008 7:05:40 pm Lindsay Mathieson wrote:
>> Users do not drive innovation. If it was left entirely to users interfaces
>> would *never* change. Sometimes developers have to role the dice and take a
>> dive into the unknown.
>>
>> I say this as a user (of KDE) and a developer (of unrelated projects).
>> There's a lot I would have done differently with KDE4 but overall I applaud
>> the chutzpah of the project. Interesting times are ahead for KDE.
>
> As little as I know, I agree completely.  Playing it safe in the comfort zone
> is like swamp water.
>
> Steven

I too think what the KDE team is doing is great but that is not to say
it could not be done better. When it comes to any problems with KDE4,
for me it is because of distros adopting the work before it is ready
to work in a stable full featured way.

I still think that KDE4 might be ready for Kubuntu by the time a new
stable release is due out.

For the Kubuntu Devs to enter into an agreement to give us a stable
KDE system and then back out is wrong, they broke their word to the
users. 8.10 should have been a stable KDE3 system and then they might
have thought about switching to KDE4. None of this is a fault of the
KDE dev team!! Innovation has a place and that place is not in the
slot of an expected and planed stable release.

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Art Alexion-3
In reply to this post by Jonas Norlander
On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 4:23 AM, Jonas Norlander <[hidden email]> wrote:
> There is a Quicklaunch plasmoid if you don't mind compile it yourself.
> http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/QuickLauncher+Applet?content=78061

Thanks!

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Jonathan Jesse
In reply to this post by Knapp


On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Knapp <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 4:13 AM, Steven Vollom
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Saturday 20 December 2008 7:05:40 pm Lindsay Mathieson wrote:
>> Users do not drive innovation. If it was left entirely to users interfaces
>> would *never* change. Sometimes developers have to role the dice and take a
>> dive into the unknown.
>>
>> I say this as a user (of KDE) and a developer (of unrelated projects).
>> There's a lot I would have done differently with KDE4 but overall I applaud
>> the chutzpah of the project. Interesting times are ahead for KDE.
>
> As little as I know, I agree completely.  Playing it safe in the comfort zone
> is like swamp water.
>
> Steven

I too think what the KDE team is doing is great but that is not to say
it could not be done better. When it comes to any problems with KDE4,
for me it is because of distros adopting the work before it is ready
to work in a stable full featured way.

I still think that KDE4 might be ready for Kubuntu by the time a new
stable release is due out.

For the Kubuntu Devs to enter into an agreement to give us a stable
KDE system and then back out is wrong, they broke their word to the
users. 8.10 should have been a stable KDE3 system and then they might
have thought about switching to KDE4. None of this is a fault of the
KDE dev team!! Innovation has a place and that place is not in the
slot of an expected and planed stable release.
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I am confused as to what you mean by a stable release?  Are you confusing the terms Long Term Support (LTS) with stable?  8.10 and 8.04 were not expected to be LTS'd for Kubuntu.  Don't know what the discussion for the next LTS is or what version # that would be.

JOnathan

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