Kmenu and KDE4

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Billie Walsh
Jonas Norlander wrote:

> 2008/12/21 Art Alexion <[hidden email]>:
>  
>> I'm one of those people who don't even like the "classic" Kmenu (or
>> any Start menu actually).  I loved katapult, and can live with its
>> merger into alt+F2.  What I miss is QuickLauncher.  I can add
>> launchers to the panel with KDE 4.1, but the icons  are so big, they
>> take up too much space.  Is there a way to make them smaller so that I
>> can fit two rows?  I noticed with my 3.5 and 4.1 machines side by side
>> that 8 launchers on the 3.5 panel take up the same space as one and a
>> half take up on 4.1.
>>
>>    
>
> There is a Quicklaunch plasmoid if you don't mind compile it yourself.
> http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/QuickLauncher+Applet?content=78061
>
> / Jonas
>
>  

Would be nice if it would install. Neither the general directions for
installing a plasmoid nor the installation instructions that come in the
file work.

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Derek Broughton-2
In reply to this post by claydoh
Clay Weber wrote:

> On Sat December 20 2008 10:08:21 am Billie Walsh wrote:
>>
>> You obviously weren't there for the mayhem. It was pretty ugly. They
>> called into question the parenthood of just about everyone at SUSE.
>> There were more than just a few posters. There were a _LOT_.
>>
>
> Another reason for them not to follow a user list, unfortunately :(
>
>> Besides a "majority" is only 51%. So, if only just over half the SUSE
>> users don't use it..........
> ......the remaining 49% are irrelevant?

Of course not, and nobody even suggested it.  
 
> With no real way to gauge this sort of thing, majority, minority,
> plurality, quorum, etc become meaningless terms

They are, but that doesn't alter the fact that if large numbers of users
are screaming, something is very wrong.  Sort of sounds like putting
KDE4 into Kubuntu 8.10...

fwiw, I rather like kickoff - the only thing wrong with it is that you
shouldn't have to click on anything to go down a level in the menu.
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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Derek Broughton-2
In reply to this post by claydoh
Clay Weber wrote:

> On Sat December 20 2008 9:34:27 am Billie Walsh wrote:
>>
>> It's very obvious that the devs don't pay attention to any user
>> lists. They should. If they had they wouldn't have been so quick to
>> choose SUSE's Kickoff. There was a major flap when SUSE released it
>> on the SUSE users lists. The majority of SUSE users don't use it and
>> hate it.
>>
> yes, from what I hear from discussions with various devs, they do not
> usually follow <foo>-user lists, as they are generally supposed to be
> for user-to-user support..
 
What a pathetic argument - since when were developers not users?  
Developers not following a user list because they just don't have the
time is understandable.  Not following them because they're not relevant
is shocking, if true.
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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Derek Broughton-2
In reply to this post by claydoh
Clay Weber wrote:

> On Sat December 20 2008 4:00:26 pm Billie Walsh wrote:

>> I don't know. I would think that if I was poring heart and soul into
>> something for others to use I would like to have some sort of
>> indication of their feelings about what I'm doing. If I'm not going
>> in the direction that is most beneficial then I would like to think I
>> would take it that direction. It's kind of a customer service type of
>> thing. If your a retail business and you stop listening to the
>> customers needs and start dictating to the customer, well, there's
>> another store just down the street. I've already seen many, at least
>> threatening to, jump off the KDE ship over this new KDE. There's
>> another interface available.
>
> Unfortunately, that is a bad analogy as the 'customer' and 'retail
> business' concepts do not really fit,

It certainly does.  Many of us in corporate life have had the whole
concept of "customer service" drilled into us even when we don't have
identifiable customers, and there's a good reason for that - the model
works.  

> as each individual person who contributes (in
> whatever capacity) to an open source project does  so for their own
> personal reasons, even in a project as large in scope as KDE. They are
> not necessarily tied to 'customer service' if you will.

They are invariably in it for _something_.  Even if it's only personal
gratification, where's the gratification in doing something that nobody
wants?

> Where/how do non-contributing users properly and sanely voice their
> concerns where the developers can easily see them?
 
It _has_ to be places like this, because the developers _can_ easily see
them.  Otherwise it's too awkward for the users.
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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Derek Broughton-2
In reply to this post by Lindsay Mathieson
Lindsay Mathieson wrote:

> Users do not drive innovation. If it was left entirely to users
> interfaces would *never* change. Sometimes developers have to role the
> dice and take a dive into the unknown.

That's true, but the developers still have to be willing to listen to
the users, and separate out the "I hate this because I hate change"
complaints from the "I hate this because it's unintuitive, complicated,
and is giving me repetitive strain injuries".  More than anything else,
the problem with KDE4 seems to be that there are NO developers who seem
willing to talk to users in a forum like this.
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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Derek Broughton-2
In reply to this post by Jonathan Jesse
Jonathan Jesse wrote:

>> I still think that KDE4 might be ready for Kubuntu by the time a new
>> stable release is due out.
>>
> I am confused as to what you mean by a stable release?  Are you
> confusing
> the terms Long Term Support (LTS) with stable?  8.10 and 8.04 were not
> expected to be LTS'd for Kubuntu.  Don't know what the discussion for
> the next LTS is or what version # that would be.

I really wish people would stop talking about non-LTS releases as if
they were testing platforms.  That was NEVER Ubuntu's plan.  All
releases are supposed to be _stable_, and the reason we jumped on the
bandwagon instead of sticking to Debian was that we were sick of the
time between stable releases. The next LTS for Kubuntu should be in
2010, but there should be two more _stable_ releases next year.  It
would be kind of nice if they were...
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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Derek Broughton-2
In reply to this post by claydoh
Clay Weber wrote:

> On Sat December 20 2008 7:11:26 pm Billie Walsh wrote:
>
>> Is there _really_ such a thing as a "non-contributing user".
>
> My wife makes one ;)

Really?  If she complains about something to you, do _you_ do something
about it (even if it's only to mention it here?).
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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Art Alexion-3
In reply to this post by Derek Broughton-2
On Sunday 21 December 2008 20:05:32 Derek Broughton wrote:
> fwiw, I rather like kickoff - the only thing wrong with it is that you
> shouldn't have to click on anything to go down a level in the menu.

IMO, all menus are more clicks than one should have to do for apps they use
daily.  Menus should only act as an archive for launching programs you rarely
use.  Launching a program should be a one click exercise.  I suppose
the "favorites" menu that opens with Kickoff is some acknowledgment of this,
but it is still one click too many.  The rest of Kickoff takes the too many
clicks complaint to the absurd extreme.  But that's just for me, and people
who work like me.


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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Art Alexion-3
In reply to this post by Derek Broughton-2
On Sunday 21 December 2008 20:15:25 Derek Broughton wrote:
> More than anything else,
> the problem with KDE4 seems to be that there are NO developers who seem
> willing to talk to users in a forum like this.

Now that you mention it, almost all of the user lists that I am on with heavy
developer participation (kdepim-user, tellico-use and kmymoney2-user) are all
for apps that aren't KDE4 yet.  Odd.

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Billie Walsh
In reply to this post by Derek Broughton-2
Derek Broughton wrote:

> Lindsay Mathieson wrote:
>
>  
>> Users do not drive innovation. If it was left entirely to users
>> interfaces would *never* change. Sometimes developers have to role the
>> dice and take a dive into the unknown.
>>    
>
> That's true, but the developers still have to be willing to listen to
> the users, and separate out the "I hate this because I hate change"
> complaints from the "I hate this because it's unintuitive, complicated,
> and is giving me repetitive strain injuries".  More than anything else,
> the problem with KDE4 seems to be that there are NO developers who seem
> willing to talk to users in a forum like this.
>  

I wonder if it's true that the devs don't monitor lists like this. How
could we, the disgruntled masses, ever know. After all, would you be
willing to tell those that are very upset with KDE 4.x that your the
guy/gal that did it? *<]:oD

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

claydoh
In reply to this post by Derek Broughton-2
On Sun December 21 2008 8:21:24 pm Derek Broughton wrote:

> Clay Weber wrote:
> > On Sat December 20 2008 7:11:26 pm Billie Walsh wrote:
> >> Is there _really_ such a thing as a "non-contributing user".
> >
> > My wife makes one ;)
>
> Really?  If she complains about something to you, do _you_ do something
> about it (even if it's only to mention it here?).
> --
> derek

Honestly, she has figured out everything that she has wanted to do on her own,
she is not a heavy user, just email, web browsing, simple games and the like.
So I do have it easy, really


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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Billie Walsh
In reply to this post by Art Alexion-3
Art Alexion wrote:

> On Sunday 21 December 2008 20:05:32 Derek Broughton wrote:
>  
>> fwiw, I rather like kickoff - the only thing wrong with it is that you
>> shouldn't have to click on anything to go down a level in the menu.
>>    
>
> IMO, all menus are more clicks than one should have to do for apps they use
> daily.  Menus should only act as an archive for launching programs you rarely
> use.  Launching a program should be a one click exercise.  I suppose
> the "favorites" menu that opens with Kickoff is some acknowledgment of this,
> but it is still one click too many.  The rest of Kickoff takes the too many
> clicks complaint to the absurd extreme.  But that's just for me, and people
> who work like me.
>
>  

That's why the Quick Launch applet is/was one of my favorites in KDE
3.x. The programs that I use everyday immediately available on the task
bar one click away.

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Alan (grokit)
In reply to this post by claydoh
 >Clay Weber wrote:
> . . .  
> Honestly, she has figured out everything that she has wanted to do on her own,
> she is not a heavy user, just email, web browsing, simple games and the like.
> So I do have it easy, really
>
>
You're a lucky man.  A lucky man.

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Derek Broughton-2
In reply to this post by Billie Walsh
Billie Walsh wrote:

> I wonder if it's true that the devs don't monitor lists like this.

It may not be true - but my complaint is that they won't actually
discuss KDE4 with us, here, whether they're reading the list or not.

> How
> could we, the disgruntled masses, ever know. After all, would you be
> willing to tell those that are very upset with KDE 4.x that your the
> guy/gal that did it? *<]:oD
 
Actually yes - I'm at a safe remove :-)  But really, I think people
would be a lot happier if we thought anybody was paying attention and
really cared about our problems.
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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

John L Fjellstad-2
In reply to this post by Derek Broughton-2
Derek Broughton <[hidden email]> writes:

> They are, but that doesn't alter the fact that if large numbers of users
> are screaming, something is very wrong.  Sort of sounds like putting
> KDE4 into Kubuntu 8.10...

A large number of users were complaining about the kcontrol.  Now that
KDE4 changed to a kubuntu-like control panel, you still hear complaints
about the new control panel.

People complained about konqueror (jack of trades, master of none).  KDE
pulled out the file management part, and now people are complaining
about that.

One thing is certain: There will always be people complaining about
everything you do or don't do.

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

marc-16
John L Fjellstad said...

> Derek Broughton <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> > They are, but that doesn't alter the fact that if large numbers of users
> > are screaming, something is very wrong.  Sort of sounds like putting
> > KDE4 into Kubuntu 8.10...
>
> A large number of users were complaining about the kcontrol.  Now that
> KDE4 changed to a kubuntu-like control panel, you still hear complaints
> about the new control panel.
>
> People complained about konqueror (jack of trades, master of none).  KDE
> pulled out the file management part, and now people are complaining
> about that.
>
> One thing is certain: There will always be people complaining about
> everything you do or don't do.

Well, we all know Linux offers choice. I don't think would be a bad
thing to offer options instead of a single preferred app.

For example, kcontrol or <whatever the new one is called>; konqueror, or
dolphin and firefox, and so on. Personally, I prefer krusader, though
;-)

Of course, all these can be set in alternatives, but perhaps the arcane
nature of alternatives is the problem.

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

marc-16
In reply to this post by Billie Walsh
Billie Walsh said...

> Clay Weber wrote:
> > On Sat December 20 2008 9:34:27 am Billie Walsh wrote:
> >  
> >> It's very obvious that the devs don't pay attention to any user lists.
> >> They should. If they had they wouldn't have been so quick to choose
> >> SUSE's Kickoff. There was a major flap when SUSE released it on the SUSE
> >> users lists. The majority of SUSE users don't use it and hate it.
> >>
> >>    
> > yes, from what I hear from discussions with various devs, they do not usually
> > follow <foo>-user lists, as they are generally supposed to be for user-to-user
> > support..
> >
> I don't know. I would think that if I was poring heart and soul into
> something for others to use I would like to have some sort of indication
> of their feelings about what I'm doing. If I'm not going in the
> direction that is most beneficial then I would like to think I would
> take it that direction. It's kind of a customer service type of thing.
> If your a retail business and you stop listening to the customers needs
> and start dictating to the customer, well, there's another store just
> down the street. I've already seen many, at least threatening to, jump
> off the KDE ship over this new KDE. There's another interface available.

Devs out there will probably be familiar with agile techniques. There's
a lot to be said for rolling out a limited edition, and then letting the
users drive the development for the front end. (The users don't care,
and should never be made aware of, what is going on behind the scenes.)

I do this in the wild, daily, and find it the path of least resistance.
In addition, when done, there are no surprises to the users.

The worst you can do is develop a ton of stuff that changes existing
processes and launch it in one go.

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

marc-16
In reply to this post by Lindsay Mathieson
Lindsay Mathieson said...
>
> Users do not drive innovation. If it was left entirely to users interfaces
> would *never* change. Sometimes developers have to role the dice and take a
> dive into the unknown.

Users can drive innovation; it's just a case of listening to them.
Equally, they may not be aware of what they can have, so it's down to
the devs to present the options. Just taking the time to do this can
lead to amazing results that neither side envisaged from the outset.

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Art Alexion-3
In reply to this post by John L Fjellstad-2
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 2:44 AM, John L Fjellstad
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> People complained about konqueror (jack of trades, master of none).  KDE
> pulled out the file management part, and now people are complaining
> about that.

Gee, I never read any complaints about konqueror.  I guess my
obliviousness to users concerns qualifies me as a KDE4 developer....

Sorry, I couldn't resist that cheap shot.  :^)

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Re: Kmenu and KDE4

Art Alexion-3
In reply to this post by marc-16
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 6:09 AM, marc <[hidden email]> wrote:
> (The users don't care,
> and should never be made aware of, what is going on behind the scenes.)
>

How UN-open source of you...  :^)


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