Konsole select into primary clipboard

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Konsole select into primary clipboard

Xen
Hi,

I wonder if it's possible to have a terminal like Konsole to not use 2
different copy paste buffers,




but to put the text selection immediately not just in the 2nd buffer,
but also in the first one.

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Re: Konsole select into primary clipboard

Liam Proven
On 8 November 2017 at 11:02, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I wonder if it's possible to have a terminal like Konsole to not use 2
> different copy paste buffers,
>
> but to put the text selection immediately not just in the 2nd buffer, but
> also in the first one.

(?)

But there is only 1, system-wide one...?

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Re: Konsole select into primary clipboard

Xen
Liam Proven schreef op 09-11-2017 0:21:

> On 8 November 2017 at 11:02, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I wonder if it's possible to have a terminal like Konsole to not use 2
>> different copy paste buffers,
>>
>> but to put the text selection immediately not just in the 2nd buffer,
>> but
>> also in the first one.
>
> (?)
>
> But there is only 1, system-wide one...?

No there are two.

1 is mouse-select middle-button paste

2 is ctrl-c or ctrl-shift-v, etc.

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Re: Konsole select into primary clipboard

Liam Proven
On 9 November 2017 at 00:54, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> No there are two.
>
> 1 is mouse-select middle-button paste
>
> 2 is ctrl-c or ctrl-shift-v, etc.
>

Ah, I see what you mean.

It's not strictly speaking a clipboard -- it has no independent
existence like a clipboard, it's just the current selection -- but
yes, in that sense, there *are* 2.

I really like it that way. I miss it badly on Mac and Linux.

E.g. I can copy the page title and the URL of a page in a single
operation. Very very useful and a huge timesaver.

I know of no way to unify them but I wouldn't want to so I've not looked.

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Re: Konsole select into primary clipboard

Xen
Liam Proven schreef op 09-11-2017 22:40:

> Ah, I see what you mean.
>
> It's not strictly speaking a clipboard -- it has no independent
> existence like a clipboard, it's just the current selection -- but
> yes, in that sense, there *are* 2.

No it's not just the current selection, you can deselect the text and it
will still be in the buffer.

> I really like it that way. I miss it badly on Mac and Windows.

> E.g. I can copy the page title and the URL of a page in a single
> operation. Very very useful and a huge timesaver.

Well it is a dumb system if you ask me, if we had something like Vim but
then more useful (because " is not useful on international dead
keyboards)

Like you select something then instead of directly pressing ctrl-c you
press ctrl-', a, ctrl-c, or even

ctrl-', a, c, to put it in the "a" buffer and so on.

I mean that's just the first thing I've come up with, I have tried
before to think of something but not really hard.

ctrl-' could be the "clipboard menu".

Just like "screen" has a menu under "ctrl-a".... but etc.



The problem of course is if you come from Windows and you are used to
Putty the following happens:

- you select some text and expect it to be copied, which it does but
only middle mouse click

- you paste the text using ctrl-v, but it pastes your old text

- you now select the text to delete it, but this overwrites the
previously selected text in the select-buffer.

- now you can start again.

FUCK.

I have to remember in time to press Ctrl-Z to undo my paste and not
using select, so I can still use my select-paste.




> I know of no way to unify them but I wouldn't want to so I've not
> looked.

Yeah well it's for the Konsole.

ctrl-shift-c is horrendous.

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Re: Konsole select into primary clipboard

Liam Proven
On 10 November 2017 at 07:07, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Well it is a dumb system if you ask me, if we had something like Vim but
> then more useful

An editor I've hated since I first saw vi in 1988 or so. I refuse to
use it. I refuse to use anything that is not CUA compliant.

>  (because " is not useful on international dead keyboards)

Then don't use one. The simplest most internationally-portable
keyboard is US English with a compose key. Then you can type anything.
I use UK English with a compose key, because I _am_ UK English. But I
can type naïveté and ¥42 and Naměstí Míru and Křižikova no problem at
all. Dead keys are a pain.

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Re: Konsole select into primary clipboard

Xen
Liam Proven schreef op 10-11-2017 13:11:
> On 10 November 2017 at 07:07, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Well it is a dumb system if you ask me, if we had something like Vim
>> but
>> then more useful
>
> An editor I've hated since I first saw vi in 1988 or so. I refuse to
> use it. I refuse to use anything that is not CUA compliant.

It's still a better system than having one archaic selection thing from
the past that happens to live on, and then the other one from the IBM
world.

That just happen to coexist.

With no design behind it whatsoever.

Actually Klipper in KDE saves both :p.

You really just need multiple buffers and they exist but it is just
random chance that they do currently.

You said I need to use a compose key, I didn't know how but now I do
after reading tutorials for some 10 minutes.

I didn't know it required that much setup.

It is still no excuse for having this dumb dead keys.

Even if you don't like them, then also don't make them stupider than
they have to be.


But the ctrl-' thing I proposed is a form of compose key.

I'm not telling you to copy more than 1% of Vim.

But you are falling into the "I don't like to eat oranges, so I will
also not use the color orange" trap.



> Then don't use one. The simplest most internationally-portable
> keyboard is US English with a compose key.

I didn't know. Honestly. I have been wanting to find out for a long time
but I can't spend my entire day googling (and I'm often a bit lazy) (or
too busy with other stuff, whatever).

You gave me the pointer to look up how to do it.

The energy so to speak.

> Then you can type anything.

Yeah I wanted that but I couldn't, but now it doesn't do 3rd level
combining anymore, don't know why.

But now I can compose diacritics and not be bugged by 'n thank you.

But now my typing in Windows will be different unless I can do it there
too (I hope).

Thanks.

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Re: Konsole select into primary clipboard

Liam Proven
On 10 November 2017 at 13:44, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It's still a better system than having one archaic selection thing from the
> past that happens to live on, and then the other one from the IBM world.

CUA is pretty good. It was inspired by Apple's Human Interface
Guidelines for the Mac, but IBM formalised a PC version. There's an
excellent Wikipedia article on it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Common_User_Access

(I can say that, because I wrote it. ;-) )

Apple moved _closer_ to CUA with Mac OS X.

GNOME uses it. KDE uses it. LXDE and Xfce use it. Windows uses it.
Almost everything does. Maybe not a complete implementation but enough
that you can work it.

But most people now only use a mouse and know almost no keyboard shortcuts.

My #1 recommendation to UI developers and testers is:

Unplug your mouse. _Now_ try to use your app. You'll probably find you
can't. Fix that and you'll find you have a much better UI for mouse
users, too.

> That just happen to coexist.
>
> With no design behind it whatsoever.

True. _Which is why it's useful and why I like it._ Because I get 2 at
once, not a fiddly selection menu or anything.

> Actually Klipper in KDE saves both :p.

A tool I used to disable or uninstall when I used KDE, because it got
in the way and annoyed me.

But whatever you prefer. I'm not saying I'm right and anyone else is
wrong, just that I like the current system.

> You really just need multiple buffers and they exist but it is just random
> chance that they do currently.

Yup. Happy accident. Works great.

> You said I need to use a compose key, I didn't know how but now I do after
> reading tutorials for some 10 minutes.

They're great!

> I didn't know it required that much setup.

Depends on desktop.

Unity/GNOME 3: install the Tweak Tool and it's a ticky-box under
Keyboard settings.

It used to be built into to both but so few people know about it,
nobody used it, so GNOME removed it -- as they do everything useful --
and Unity inherited that.

> It is still no excuse for having this dumb dead keys.

With Compose, you need no dead keys.

> Even if you don't like them, then also don't make them stupider than they
> have to be.

*Shrug* No comment.

> But the ctrl-' thing I proposed is a form of compose key.
>
> I'm not telling you to copy more than 1% of Vim.
>
> But you are falling into the "I don't like to eat oranges, so I will also
> not use the color orange" trap.

I get that a lot. I have worked for both Red Hat & SUSE. Both are
_full_ of Vi lovers, with a few Emacs lovers. Both evangelise their
editors.

Neither understand when I say I won't use anything that isn't CUA.

There's a standard editor UI -- not just menus but keyboard shortcuts,
terminology, etc. -- that _all_ GUI editors use and have used for
about 30 years now. Some console-mode/text-mode editors use it too.

I used to know about 15-12 different word processor UIs in the era of
MS-DOS. I liked and used MS Word, LocoScript, MS-DOS 5 Editor. If I
had to, I could use WordPerfect 5.1. I disliked but also worked with
and supported:
* Wordstar
* Wordstar 2000 (totally different)
* Wordstar Express/Wordstar 1512  (totally different again)
* MultiMate
* DisplayWrite
* DECwrite
* PC Write
* XyWrite
* Samna Executive
* WordPerfect 4.2 (no menus)
* Lotus Symphony
* Edlin
* VMS EDIT
... and others.

Every one had a different UI. Nothing in common. I used them all.

I hated them all to some degree, some more than others.

Then came the Mac and later Windows and it all went away. Everyone had
a File menu, an Edit menu, a View menu, etc. Everyone understood
Ctrl-O is open, Ctrl-S is save, Ctrl-P is print, Shift-Del or Ctrl-X
is cut, etc.

So I happily forgot all that proprietary nastiness and moved to the
new standard.

I am not going back for _anybody_. I don't code, I don't care about
any code-editing features. I write English and other human languages.
I don't care _how_ powerful anyone's editor is, unless it complies
with the standard UI, I'm not interested.

So unless someone does _again_ what Borland did with Sprint, 25y ago,
and rewrite Emacs to have a bog-standard UI. Files, not "buffers".
Windows and panes. All the CUA menus, commands and keystrokes, at the
console as well as in a GUI.

Then I'll look.

After the power is no use if I can't use it as a simple editor like
any other, and with vi and Emacs, I can't. So, not interested. The
mountain must come to Mohammed. ;-)

>> Then don't use one. The simplest most internationally-portable
>> keyboard is US English with a compose key.
>
>
> I didn't know. Honestly. I have been wanting to find out for a long time but
> I can't spend my entire day googling (and I'm often a bit lazy) (or too busy
> with other stuff, whatever).
>
> You gave me the pointer to look up how to do it.
>
> The energy so to speak.

Well, good! :-)

>> Then you can type anything.
>
>
> Yeah I wanted that but I couldn't, but now it doesn't do 3rd level combining
> anymore, don't know why.

That I don't know.

> But now I can compose diacritics and not be bugged by 'n thank you.

Great! You're welcome!

The thing I love about compose key sequences is that you can just
guess almost all of them.

` + letter == grave accent
' + letter == acute accent (and čarka: é, á)
" + letter == umlaut/diaresis
^ + letter == circumflex
/ + letter == line through (¢, ¥, Ł, ø)
etc. etc.
a + e == æ
o + e == œ
a + a == å
Czech style hačky are a less-than sign: ř, š, č, ť, ď
Cedilla is a comma: ç
Tilde is a tilde, obviously -- ~ + n == ñ


> But now my typing in Windows will be different unless I can do it there too
> (I hope).

https://sourceforge.net/projects/allchars/

or

https://github.com/samhocevar/wincompose

> Thanks.

You're welcome. :-)


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Re: Konsole select into primary clipboard

Xen
Liam Proven schreef op 10-11-2017 20:36:

> CUA is pretty good.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it. I love it too.


> A tool I used to disable or uninstall when I used KDE, because it got
> in the way and annoyed me.

I don't like Klipper for 2 reasons.

- it is unintended
- you can't actually view the history for very long

> But whatever you prefer. I'm not saying I'm right and anyone else is
> wrong, just that I like the current system.

I'm just saying it doesn't work if you are co-existing in any other
environment.

That said I haven't checked Konsole options yet...

Lol yeah euhm.... it had an option for what I wanted :p.



KDE generally makes me not want to explore options...

:(.

:p.

Now at least it will work the way Putty does.

No surprises anymore now.

I think a better system than a menu is when you decide the buffer at the
end of your action.

For instance.



You could hold down a key combination (e.g.  ctrl-c) and if you hold it
down for longer than a second a menu pops up with a choice of 1 2 3 and
4.

Bit hard to paste that way though.

The Vim system doesn't work all that bad but Vims biggest problem is
that you can't delete any text while overwriting your ordinary save
buffer.



Vim only has ctrl-x, no "del" button.

This constantly risks overwriting your save buffer and makes the program
unusable.


> It used to be built into to both but so few people know about it,
> nobody used it, so GNOME removed it -- as they do everything useful --
> and Unity inherited that.

It's sometimes hard to discover everything on your own...

They should make it default in KDE.

The only thing is you cannot discover it on your own how it works.

Well I mean make left-shift + right alt the compose key by default.

Interferes with nothing.

Now how to tell people...


>> Even if you don't like them, then also don't make them stupider than
>> they
>> have to be.
>
> *Shrug* No comment.

I have no great issue with the dead keys in Windows. It makes it
annoying while programming that's true, but you can live with it. What
you can't live with if the behaviour suddenly changes from system to
system.

I could use AltGr as compose but how to type € then?


>> But you are falling into the "I don't like to eat oranges, so I will
>> also
>> not use the color orange" trap.
>
> I get that a lot.

You're missing the point. I'm not telling you to use Vim.

Even the most worthless thing in existence has something good to it.

Or as Cruijff said: Elk nadeel heb ze voordeel.

(Every disadvantage has its advantage).

(As a football strategist).

So even though Vim is a pain in the ass to use.

It does have multiple buffers.



> Neither understand when I say I won't use anything that isn't CUA.

I have no problem understanding that.


> There's a standard editor UI -- not just menus but keyboard shortcuts,
> terminology, etc. -- that _all_ GUI editors use and have used for
> about 30 years now. Some console-mode/text-mode editors use it too.
>
> I used to know about 15-12 different word processor UIs in the era of
> MS-DOS. I liked and used MS Word, LocoScript, MS-DOS 5 Editor. If I
> had to, I could use WordPerfect 5.1. I disliked but also worked with
> and supported:
> * Wordstar
> * Wordstar 2000 (totally different)
> * Wordstar Express/Wordstar 1512  (totally different again)
> * MultiMate
> * DisplayWrite
> * DECwrite
> * PC Write
> * XyWrite
> * Samna Executive
> * WordPerfect 4.2 (no menus)
> * Lotus Symphony
> * Edlin
> * VMS EDIT
> ... and others.
>
> Every one had a different UI. Nothing in common. I used them all.
>
> I hated them all to some degree, some more than others.
>
> Then came the Mac and later Windows and it all went away. Everyone had
> a File menu, an Edit menu, a View menu, etc. Everyone understood
> Ctrl-O is open, Ctrl-S is save, Ctrl-P is print, Shift-Del or Ctrl-X
> is cut, etc.
>
> So I happily forgot all that proprietary nastiness and moved to the
> new standard.
>
> I am not going back for _anybody_.

I'm not telling you to.

You don't understand what "Just because you don't like to eat an orange,
you can still use orange paint" means.

I'm not telling you to use Vim.

I'm not telling you to eat the orange.

I'm just saying there might be some ideas in the editor that are worth
considering if they could be implemented in something else that is
actually a bit more userfriendly.

Just because in general the interface is worthless doesn't mean it is
completely devoid of good ideas.


Don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

I am talking on the level of inspiration, not existing software.


> So unless someone does _again_ what Borland did with Sprint, 25y ago,
> and rewrite Emacs to have a bog-standard UI. Files, not "buffers".
> Windows and panes. All the CUA menus, commands and keystrokes, at the
> console as well as in a GUI.
>
> Then I'll look.
>
> After the power is no use if I can't use it as a simple editor like
> any other, and with vi and Emacs, I can't. So, not interested.

Where did I tell you to use vi?

> The thing I love about compose key sequences is that you can just
> guess almost all of them.
>
> ` + letter == grave accent
> ' + letter == acute accent (and čarka: é, á)
> " + letter == umlaut/diaresis
> ^ + letter == circumflex
> / + letter == line through (¢, ¥, Ł, ø)
> etc. etc.
> a + e == æ
> o + e == œ
> a + a == å
> Czech style hačky are a less-than sign: ř, š, č, ť, ď
> Cedilla is a comma: ç
> Tilde is a tilde, obviously -- ~ + n == ñ

> https://sourceforge.net/projects/allchars/
>
> or
>
> https://github.com/samhocevar/wincompose

Right. Should fix things a little bit. Although I'm comfortable with
dead keys.

I would rather stay with dead keys in Linux as long as they are the same
as in Windows.

Which is only annoying for " and ', but you get used to the rhythm.

But as usual in Linux there are only useless options to choose from (as
far as I have discovered).

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Re: Konsole select into primary clipboard

Liam Proven
On 10 November 2017 at 21:31, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think a better system than a menu is when you decide the buffer at the end
> of your action.

MS-Word does that. It drives me crazy.

> You could hold down a key combination (e.g.  ctrl-c) and if you hold it down
> for longer than a second a menu pops up with a choice of 1 2 3 and 4.
>
> Bit hard to paste that way though.

Ew! Sounds horrid. As before -- happy for anyone to use it if they
want, but I'd like the main OS and standard apps to use the normal way
that everyone's used since 1984, please.


> The Vim system doesn't work all that bad but Vims biggest problem is that
> you can't delete any text while overwriting your ordinary save buffer.
>
>
>
> Vim only has ctrl-x, no "del" button.
>
> This constantly risks overwriting your save buffer and makes the program
> unusable.

I didn't know that. Thanks, I've learned something today! :-)

> Well I mean make left-shift + right alt the compose key by default.
>
> Interferes with nothing.

As you wish. I use Right Alt, AltGr.

> Now how to tell people...

The world missed a big chance in 1982 or so.

IBM's Enhanced Keyboard layout took inspiration from a DEC terminal
keyboard. I'm not sure which DEC device was first -- it might have
been a VT-220:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VT220

IBM first introduced this layout with the 3161 terminal in 1985:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3101#IBM_3161.2F3163

... then it came to the later-model PC AT and the PS/2 range.

Look at the IBM and DEC layouts. The function keys across the top in
groups of 4. The cursor keys between the main QWERTY block and the
numeric keypad. The cursor keys in an inverted-T layout, directly
below the other editing keys.

IBM copied DEC.

But IBM didn't copy the DEC Compose key. Sun did, IBM left it out.

And so had to produce dozens of different variants for languages with
extra letters than the US ASCII A-Z, 0-9, $ set. French, German, all
the Scandinavian and Nordic languages -- all rich countries who bought
PCs and all needed their own keyboards.

Result: chaos.

If they'd given everyone a Compose key, supported it in DOS and said
"if you want é, press Compose+e+'..." then we'd all have the US layout
and a lot of pain would have been avoided.

A sad loss.

> I could use AltGr as compose but how to type € then?

Compose + E + =



There you go. :-)

> You're missing the point. I'm not telling you to use Vim.

No, I know, but I would be resistant to anything from Vim's weird
old-fashioned (even anachronistic) UI being made more widespread. It
exists in its own little world and I'm happy to leave it there!

> Even the most worthless thing in existence has something good to it.

Definitely, yes.

>
> Or as Cruijff said: Elk nadeel heb ze voordeel.
>
> (Every disadvantage has its advantage).
>
> (As a football strategist).
>
> So even though Vim is a pain in the ass to use.
>
> It does have multiple buffers.

Fair enough. But you can't just delete!


> You don't understand what "Just because you don't like to eat an orange, you
> can still use orange paint" means.
>
> I'm not telling you to use Vim.
>
> I'm not telling you to eat the orange.
>
> I'm just saying there might be some ideas in the editor that are worth
> considering if they could be implemented in something else that is actually
> a bit more userfriendly.

Oh, definitely, yes, and I did get that.

A couple of editors I would _love_ to see re-implemented on modern hardware:

Ted Nelson's JOT:

http://fileformats.archiveteam.org/wiki/JOT

https://archive.org/details/jot_0.53_ted_nelson

Jef Raskin's SwyftCard:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jef_Raskin#Pioneering_the_information_appliance

And the Canon Cat:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_Cat


> Just because in general the interface is worthless doesn't mean it is
> completely devoid of good ideas.

Agreed, strongly.

> Where did I tell you to use vi?

No no, it's OK, I get it!

> Right. Should fix things a little bit. Although I'm comfortable with dead
> keys.

It is probably possible to combine both.

> I would rather stay with dead keys in Linux as long as they are the same as
> in Windows.
>
> Which is only annoying for " and ', but you get used to the rhythm.

The thing I notice here in Czechia is this.

The Czechs don't consider the diacritical marks as "accents" over a
normal letter. Like the Scandinavians, they are extra letters, tagged
on the end of the alphabet.

Norwegian: A-Z, Æ, Å, Ø
Swedish: A-Z, Ä, Å, Ö

Czech: A-Z, Á, É, Č, Ř, Š, Ž

(I may have the order wrong.)

So, no dead keys. They need their own special keys, because they are
not combinations, they are single letters.

But there are dead keys in the International layout in Windows, and
people use an accent on its own -- ´ -- instead of an apostrophe.

"Liam´s book" instead of "Liam's book". If you look, it takes much
more space. The gap between M and S is bigger with the accent than an
actual apostrophe. This drives me _crazy_.

> But as usual in Linux there are only useless options to choose from (as far
> as I have discovered).

Compose is a wonderful one. Once you get used to it, you will wonder
how you ever lived without it, I promise you!


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Re: Konsole select into primary clipboard

Xen
Liam Proven schreef op 10-11-2017 22:37:
> On 10 November 2017 at 21:31, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I think a better system than a menu is when you decide the buffer at
>> the end
>> of your action.
>
> MS-Word does that. It drives me crazy.

Didn't know that.

>> You could hold down a key combination (e.g.  ctrl-c) and if you hold
>> it down
>> for longer than a second a menu pops up with a choice of 1 2 3 and 4.
>>
>> Bit hard to paste that way though.
>
> Ew! Sounds horrid. As before -- happy for anyone to use it if they
> want, but I'd like the main OS and standard apps to use the normal way
> that everyone's used since 1984, please.

Except you haven't.

You have been using an archaic side effect that pretty much no one has
been using, to augment a system that otherwise would be too limited.

Yes and In Windows I Just Use Notepad As Another Scratch Pad but I
haven't found a good, or I have never found a good notepad in Linux for
that.

So I have been rarely bugged by the lack of "scratch pad" in Windows.

In Linux, against my wishes, I use Klipper for a modicum of that, but it
is unreliable because it is unintended and you can lose your history.


>> Vim only has ctrl-x, no "del" button.
>>
>> This constantly risks overwriting your save buffer and makes the
>> program
>> unusable.
>
> I didn't know that. Thanks, I've learned something today! :-)

Well imagine the following block:

"Text
text

Leave
Leave"

You want to cut the 2 lines of text, and then delete the white line.

But if you first copy those 2 lines and then press "dd" on the white
line, the deletion will now have overwritten your save buffer.

With 'luck' your save buffer will have been moved to a higher number, so
it might be sitting in "1", but actually I believe the text you saved is
now actually in buffer "0".

There is a dedicated buffer only used for "copies". Now you have to use
it using "0p.

Provided you don't have dead keys because that will $%#@ everything up.

So the problem with Vi is that they don't differentiate between delete
and cut.

And that the primary clipboard is used for both.


>> Well I mean make left-shift + right alt the compose key by default.
>>
>> Interferes with nothing.
>
> As you wish. I use Right Alt, AltGr.

How do you type Euro key?

Oh you answered.

>> Now how to tell people...

> But IBM didn't copy the DEC Compose key. Sun did, IBM left it out.
>
> And so had to produce dozens of different variants for languages with
> extra letters than the US ASCII A-Z, 0-9, $ set. French, German, all
> the Scandinavian and Nordic languages -- all rich countries who bought
> PCs and all needed their own keyboards.
>
> Result: chaos.
>
> If they'd given everyone a Compose key, supported it in DOS and said
> "if you want é, press Compose+e+'..." then we'd all have the US layout
> and a lot of pain would have been avoided.

I still feel something good would have been lost.

Now that I know how to type the Euro I guess I can put the compose on
the same button as you have.

But apple normally also just uses key combinations right?

I mean clearly if dead keys are this stupid then compose is superior.

I prefer to have it on right-ctrl actually but right-alt is faster...

In the past while I was programming I would switch layouts but this was
always annoying.

I still prefer a good dead-keys thing, in fact in the Netherlands we
have always used US keyboard layout for computers.

We had Dutch layout for typing machines, but switched to US layout for
computers.

The only issue with dead keys is that they have to be similar.

So we never had the "multitude of different keyboards".

The problem with Compose is that it is completely hidden.

Combination keys can be put directly on the keyboard.

How is a novice going to learn about these combinations?

If it was purely for proze I would never step away from the Windows dead
keys.

It only "bugs" while doing <--.

And only slightly, but you get used to that and it never bugs you after
that.

The biggest problem is while coding :p.

Particularly because you couldn't, and can't, "fix" applications to a
certain keyboard layout between restarts.

> Compose + E + =
>
> €
>
> There you go. :-)

Thanks.

> No, I know, but I would be resistant to anything from Vim's weird
> old-fashioned (even anachronistic) UI being made more widespread. It
> exists in its own little world and I'm happy to leave it there!

Lol. Afraid of contamination.

> Fair enough. But you can't just delete!

Yes well.

I guess it dates from the problems terminals had with arrow keys and key
combinations.

It would be easy enough to add "ctrl-shift-right" to Vim honestly.

They already have ctrl-right...

Then make sure the "x" key doesn't overwrite things...

Make sure the undo buffer is per-word by default...

Ensure visual selection selects entire lines and not the first character
of the line you happen to be at...

And so on and so on. There are plenty of things you can improve.

This "counting lines" thing is very annoying.

Where you have to use mental resources ahead of time to calculate the
number of lines you want to delete instead of doing it visually.

Then I'm sure you can find a way...

To introduce a "cut" key as well.

In fact shift-X is "backspace", I mean, I get that it is for their
command mode, but...

shift-X would be more natural as a cut operation.

Space and backspace do cursor movements in command mode... which is just
always confusing to me even after many years and typically never what
you want because you have (a) arrow keys and (b) hjkl keys.

So I also don't need "enter" to do "down".

So you can start cutting away all of the nonsense and in the end you
will have a leaner machine that will more approach something sensible
and then you will definitely get room I think to fix the anomalies.

But yeah whatever.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_Cat

Well you have your own goals to go after ;-).

> The Czechs don't consider the diacritical marks as "accents" over a
> normal letter. Like the Scandinavians, they are extra letters, tagged
> on the end of the alphabet.
>
> Norwegian: A-Z, Æ, Å, Ø
> Swedish: A-Z, Ä, Å, Ö
>
> Czech: A-Z, Á, É, Č, Ř, Š, Ž
>
> (I may have the order wrong.)
>
> So, no dead keys. They need their own special keys, because they are
> not combinations, they are single letters.
>
> But there are dead keys in the International layout in Windows, and
> people use an accent on its own -- ´ -- instead of an apostrophe.
>
> "Liam´s book" instead of "Liam's book". If you look, it takes much
> more space. The gap between M and S is bigger with the accent than an
> actual apostrophe. This drives me _crazy_.

Not in monospace ;-).

But yeah.

So Czech also would not like compose key combinations for those letters?

> Compose is a wonderful one. Once you get used to it, you will wonder
> how you ever lived without it, I promise you!

Yeah I get that it solves the issue and sometimes I drooled about it in
my sleep.... No just kidding.

But it seems that for practical purposes a dedicated feature set for a
specific layout is more pleasant.

I could say "better".

But it needs to be done _right_.

If you can't do it right, as is in Linux usually the case, then yeah you
need the simplest solution.

I never explored all of the KDE options in the Advanced Tab.

You can't select "alt-shift" as the key layout change key in the
settings.
But you can select it using a special option in the advanced tab.

Little did I know.

Okay so there are people who have tried to fix the thing and apparently
succeeded but it doesn't work for me.

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Re: Konsole select into primary clipboard

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Duane Whitty schreef op 11-11-2017 16:00:

> I realize that this may not be of much help since it seems you don't
> use
> /don't want to use vi/vim much but you might be interested in checking
> out the information on registers in vim
> :help registers

Yes I know that the previous deletion if it is multi-line ends up in
register 2.

So with the above example I could delete the empty line and it would end
up in 1, pushing the previous deletion (my cut) to register 2.

Regardless that is pretty complicated.

You constantly have to watch how much stuff you have deleted or how many
times.

But the problem is I cannot delete and copy at the same time while using
the 0 register,

except by explicitly mentioning another one, such as by doing

"add

on the lines I want to copy.

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Re: Konsole select into primary clipboard

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Xen
On 11 November 2017 at 10:26, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> MS-Word does that. It drives me crazy.
>
> Didn't know that.

If you do Paste Special.
> Except you haven't.
>
> You have been using an archaic side effect

*Shrug* So?

> that pretty much no one has been
> using,

Hey. Whoa whoa whoa! [[Citation needed]]

Among skilled Unix users, this is well-known and widely used, IME.
_Very_ widely used. More widely used than Vi, I reckon.

>  to augment a system that otherwise would be too limited.

Also total nonsense. There are about 100x as many Mac and Windows
users as Linux users. They all have only one clipboard. They seem fine
with it. I read no complaints. "Too limited" is _not true_.

> Yes and In Windows I Just Use Notepad As Another Scratch Pad but I haven't
> found a good, or I have never found a good notepad in Linux for that.

(?)

There are a thousand Linux text editors. What do you want?

[Stuff about vi snipped]

My usage of vi is so basic, I don't even try cut-and-paste, so I never
found this. I use it only for edits of just a few characters.

My Linux editor of choice is Tilde:

https://os.ghalkes.nl/tilde/

I have blogged about this:

http://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/42908.html

> I still feel something good would have been lost.

National keyboards? Maybe so.

> Now that I know how to type the Euro I guess I can put the compose on the
> same button as you have.

It works for me. I don't use Alt heavily. I do use Ctrl heavily. But
use whatever suits you.

> But apple normally also just uses key combinations right?

Yes. I dislike them, because I have to memorise them, and they don't
work on anything else.

I have yet to find a way that actually works to get a compose key on
Mac OS X. This annoys me.

> I mean clearly if dead keys are this stupid then compose is superior.

Some people must like dead keys, I guess!

> I prefer to have it on right-ctrl actually but right-alt is faster...
>
> In the past while I was programming I would switch layouts but this was
> always annoying.

Agreed.

> I still prefer a good dead-keys thing, in fact in the Netherlands we have
> always used US keyboard layout for computers.
>
> We had Dutch layout for typing machines, but switched to US layout for
> computers.

I didn't know that. Interesting.

> The only issue with dead keys is that they have to be similar.
>
> So we never had the "multitude of different keyboards".
>
> The problem with Compose is that it is completely hidden.

If you look closely at a DEC keyboard, you'll see Compose has its own
dedicated key:

http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/retro/images/KEYBOARD-MAIN.JPG

Sun gave it a dedicated key, too:

http://xahlee.info/kbd/i/kb/sun_type_6_keyboard_meta_compose_altgraph_keys.jpg

> Combination keys can be put directly on the keyboard.

True.

> How is a novice going to learn about these combinations?

When I did that sort of thing for a living, I told people how it
worked and gave them a demo.

Then I made it a little game. I got them to try it and then made them
guess new combinations that I had _not_ shown them.

Most people quickly learn how it works and start to guess correctly.
This gives them a feeling of achievement -- positive reinforcement,
and it's fun. Leave them to experiment -- a check and reminder once or
twice after 2-3 days -- and they are off. It's a very discoverable
feature.

> If it was purely for proze I would never step away from the Windows dead
> keys.
>
> It only "bugs" while doing <--.

Compose + < + - == ←

:-)

And → too.


> And only slightly, but you get used to that and it never bugs you after
> that.

Ah, right, I see.

> The biggest problem is while coding :p.

I bet.

> Particularly because you couldn't, and can't, "fix" applications to a
> certain keyboard layout between restarts.
>
>> Compose + E + =
>>
>> €
>>
>> There you go. :-)
>
>
> Thanks.

Graag gedaan.

> Lol. Afraid of contamination.

Well, from what I regard as a nasty source.

>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_Cat
>
>
> Well you have your own goals to go after ;-).

Worth a read. Once there were some _radically_ different ways to edit text.


>> "Liam´s book" instead of "Liam's book". If you look, it takes much
>> more space. The gap between M and S is bigger with the accent than an
>> actual apostrophe. This drives me _crazy_.
>
>
> Not in monospace ;-).
>
> But yeah.
>

Heh. OK.

> Yeah I get that it solves the issue and sometimes I drooled about it in my
> sleep.... No just kidding.
>
> But it seems that for practical purposes a dedicated feature set for a
> specific layout is more pleasant.

If you mainly type only in 1 language, yes.

I have worked for several nationalities of employer in several
countries. For people with a more international life, it's a problem.

> I never explored all of the KDE options in the Advanced Tab.

That is a very deep rabbit hole.

> You can't select "alt-shift" as the key layout change key in the settings.
> But you can select it using a special option in the advanced tab.

(!)

> Okay so there are people who have tried to fix the thing and apparently
> succeeded but it doesn't work for me.

I really don't like KDE any more, either. I will reformat my work
laptop at some point and remove it again. Maybe try Cinnamon or
something.

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Re: Konsole select into primary clipboard

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Liam Proven schreef op 11-11-2017 23:53:

> If you do Paste Special.

Right. Well LibreOffice also has its paste menu whenever something is
formatted.

>> Except you haven't.
>>
>> You have been using an archaic side effect
>
> *Shrug* So?

So the IBM/DEC interface you rumour is not up to the test.

>> that pretty much no one has been
>> using,
>
> Hey. Whoa whoa whoa! [[Citation needed]]
>
> Among skilled Unix users, this is well-known and widely used, IME.
> _Very_ widely used. More widely used than Vi, I reckon.

Which is how many people on a global scale?

"Among skilled Unix users".

Unix (Linux) accounts for no more than 3% of desktop users.

If we add todays smartphone users, it is even less (those don't account
for Linux desktop).

Today, 1/3 of web visits happens through mobile.

Of the 2/3 that is desktop visits, 3% is Linux/Unix.

Of the 1/3 that is mobile visit, nothing is Linux/Unix.

Enough citation?


>>  to augment a system that otherwise would be too limited.
>
> Also total nonsense. There are about 100x as many Mac and Windows
> users as Linux users. They all have only one clipboard. They seem fine
> with it. I read no complaints. "Too limited" is _not true_.

Then why do you fear discarding it?

You don't see how contradictory you are?

You laud a system you say is unnecessary, but is in "heavy" use.

Me, I *do* miss another clipboard in Windows.

It frequently happens that I forget to save something and I lose some
text.

Normally when I think of it, as said, I put it in a Notepad window.


>> Yes and In Windows I Just Use Notepad As Another Scratch Pad but I
>> haven't
>> found a good, or I have never found a good notepad in Linux for that.
>
> (?)

I notice a question mark wrapped in 2 parentheses. Good for you.


> My Linux editor of choice is Tilde:
>
> https://os.ghalkes.nl/tilde/
>
> I have blogged about this:
>
> http://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/42908.html


Still sounds like you found something that "will do", nothing great.

But anyway.

There is a clone of the MS-DOS editor right. Is that Tilde?


>> I still prefer a good dead-keys thing, in fact in the Netherlands we
>> have
>> always used US keyboard layout for computers.
>>
>> We had Dutch layout for typing machines, but switched to US layout for
>> computers.
>
> I didn't know that. Interesting.

Dutch layout wasn't that much different except - was on the ? key, and a
few others.

£ may have had its own key.


>> The only issue with dead keys is that they have to be similar.
>>
>> So we never had the "multitude of different keyboards".
>>
>> The problem with Compose is that it is completely hidden.
>
> If you look closely at a DEC keyboard, you'll see Compose has its own
> dedicated key:
>
> http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/retro/images/KEYBOARD-MAIN.JPG

Right.

> Sun gave it a dedicated key, too:
>
> http://xahlee.info/kbd/i/kb/sun_type_6_keyboard_meta_compose_altgraph_keys.jpg

Looks better.

>> How is a novice going to learn about these combinations?
>
> When I did that sort of thing for a living, I told people how it
> worked and gave them a demo.
>
> Then I made it a little game. I got them to try it and then made them
> guess new combinations that I had _not_ shown them.
>
> Most people quickly learn how it works and start to guess correctly.
> This gives them a feeling of achievement -- positive reinforcement,
> and it's fun. Leave them to experiment -- a check and reminder once or
> twice after 2-3 days -- and they are off. It's a very discoverable
> feature.
>
>> If it was purely for proze I would never step away from the Windows
>> dead
>> keys.
>>
>> It only "bugs" while doing <--.
>
> Compose + < + - == ←

I meant " characters ;-).

> :-)
>
> And → too.

I can do that in Zim! But I ctrl-Z it ;-).

>> But it seems that for practical purposes a dedicated feature set for a
>> specific layout is more pleasant.
>
> If you mainly type only in 1 language, yes.
>
> I have worked for several nationalities of employer in several
> countries. For people with a more international life, it's a problem.

Personally if they would put the spellcheck off by default or think of
people who are bilingual,

that would be the biggest thing.


>> Okay so there are people who have tried to fix the thing and
>> apparently
>> succeeded but it doesn't work for me.
>
> I really don't like KDE any more, either. I will reformat my work
> laptop at some point and remove it again. Maybe try Cinnamon or
> something.

I am on a mobile connection atm,

so I can't download ISOs on a batch

or I would probably have installed Ubuntu 16.04 (Unity)

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Re: Konsole select into primary clipboard

Liam Proven
On 12 November 2017 at 04:38, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Liam Proven schreef op 11-11-2017 23:53:
>
>> If you do Paste Special.
>
>
> Right. Well LibreOffice also has its paste menu whenever something is
> formatted.

Fair enough.

>>> Except you haven't.
>>>
>>> You have been using an archaic side effect
>>
>> *Shrug* So?
>
> So the IBM/DEC interface you rumour is not up to the test.

We are talking about 2 totally different, unconnected things here.

Compose keys versus clipboards. There's no connection. Keep them separate.

The middle-click-to-insert-current-selection feature isn't a clipboard
at all. There is no intermediate storage. It's a useful feature
separate from and in addition to the clipboard-based cut/copy/paste
function. It's not anything to do with DEC or IBM. It's a feature of
X.11 as far as I know. I like it, I use it.

Honestly, I don't really care whether you like it or not. Your choice.
But I will protest most strongly if you want to take it away from me.
Even if you want to replace it with something you think is more
powerful. I don't care. I don't want your more powerful feature. I
like the one I have.

>> Hey. Whoa whoa whoa! [[Citation needed]]
>>
>> Among skilled Unix users, this is well-known and widely used, IME.
>> _Very_ widely used. More widely used than Vi, I reckon.
>
>
> Which is how many people on a global scale?
>
> "Among skilled Unix users".
>
> Unix (Linux) accounts for no more than 3% of desktop users.
>
> If we add todays smartphone users, it is even less (those don't account for
> Linux desktop).

Totally irrelevant: they have no keyboards or mice, so middle-clicking
is not possible.

> Today, 1/3 of web visits happens through mobile.
>
> Of the 2/3 that is desktop visits, 3% is Linux/Unix.
>
> Of the 1/3 that is mobile visit, nothing is Linux/Unix.
>
> Enough citation?

No.

Not even close.

We are talking about a Unix feature, something that is a function of
X.11 and a 3-button mouse. Anything that isn't Unix, doesn't have
pointing devices with 3+ buttons, is totally irrelevant.

>> Also total nonsense. There are about 100x as many Mac and Windows
>> users as Linux users. They all have only one clipboard. They seem fine
>> with it. I read no complaints. "Too limited" is _not true_.
>
>
> Then why do you fear discarding it?

I don't fear it. I use it, I like it. I don't want any crappy features
from any crappy old junk like Vim replacing it.

This is the same as you complaining about GNOME 3. I don't like GNOME
3 either. I like what I have and I don't want it taken away. You did
too. So we both disliked GNOME 3.

Now, you're being the GNOME developer. "I don't like this, so you
can't gave it."

That is not OK. Do not take away my tool which I like because you don't like it.

> You don't see how contradictory you are?

No, because you want to take something off me. That's something I am
not accepting. That's not being contradictory.

> You laud a system you say is unnecessary, but is in "heavy" use.
>
> Me, I *do* miss another clipboard in Windows.
>
> It frequently happens that I forget to save something and I lose some text.
>
> Normally when I think of it, as said, I put it in a Notepad window.

So use a Windows clipboard enhancement tool.

https://www.howtogeek.com/howto/19420/store-multiple-items-to-clipboard-in-windows/

https://lifehacker.com/5298615/five-best-clipboard-managers

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/3-clipboard-managers-windows/

I don't want it, so I don't use it. Same as Windows itself. Don't
want, don't use.

>>> Yes and In Windows I Just Use Notepad As Another Scratch Pad but I
>>> haven't
>>> found a good, or I have never found a good notepad in Linux for that.
>>
>>
>> (?)
>
>
> I notice a question mark wrapped in 2 parentheses. Good for you.

It means a question. It is questioning your statement. How can you not
find a good notepad in Linux? There are _hundreds_.

> Still sounds like you found something that "will do", nothing great.
>
> But anyway.
>
> There is a clone of the MS-DOS editor right. Is that Tilde?

Yes, basically.

> Dutch layout wasn't that much different except - was on the ? key, and a few
> others.
>
> £ may have had its own key.

Is there any use for '£' in Dutch?

I imagined 'ij' might be a key, or 'ÿ'. I can't think of anything else
but I don't speak Dutch.

>>> It only "bugs" while doing <--.
>>
>>
>> Compose + < + - == ←
>
>
> I meant " characters ;-).

I worked that out belatedly. Double-quotes, we call them. Yes, they
are a problem with dead keys.

> Personally if they would put the spellcheck off by default or think of
> people who are bilingual,
>
> that would be the biggest thing.

Agreed.

> I am on a mobile connection atm,
>
> so I can't download ISOs on a batch
>
> or I would probably have installed Ubuntu 16.04 (Unity)

Ah. Sorry to hear that. Perhaps a wifi hotspot, or an Internet café might help.


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