Krita view and/or export issue

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Krita view and/or export issue

ubuntu-users mailing list
Hi,

due to increasing issues with Gimp, I try to migrate from Gimp to Krita.

Is anybody experienced in using Krita?

At the moment I'm puzzled on how to come closer to "what you see is
nearly what you get", than what I experience at the moment, see
https://i.imgur.com/2AySCGp.png.

The wallpaper JPEG was exported with high quality JPEG settings. I
suspect it's not only loss caused by the export. My guess is, that the
100% / 1:1 view of Krita already is biased.

Does somebody know what view settings to chose, to get an unbiased view?
If I make a wallpaper for the monitor I'm using with Krita, there's no
need for a profile that does any biasing at a 100% site view, let alone
that the used monitor provides colour profiles for different tasks.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: Krita view and/or export issue

Karl Auer
On Mon, 2019-05-27 at 10:47 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users wrote:
> Is anybody experienced in using Krita?
>
> At the moment I'm puzzled on how to come closer to "what you see is
> nearly what you get", than what I experience at the moment, see
> https://i.imgur.com/2AySCGp.png.

Not experienced with Krita, but JPG nearly always dulls, especially
along edges. If you want to keep that vibrancy, start with using any
lossless format - TIFF, PNG or even GIF.

Also, if your original is JPG you may lose definition each time you
save it. When you are happy, save as JPG (if you absolutely must have
that format).

Regards, K.

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Re: Krita view and/or export issue

ubuntu-users mailing list
On Mon, 27 May 2019 20:02:42 +1000, Karl Auer wrote:

>On Mon, 2019-05-27 at 10:47 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users wrote:
>> Is anybody experienced in using Krita?
>>
>> At the moment I'm puzzled on how to come closer to "what you see is
>> nearly what you get", than what I experience at the moment, see
>> https://i.imgur.com/2AySCGp.png.  
>
>Not experienced with Krita, but JPG nearly always dulls, especially
>along edges. If you want to keep that vibrancy, start with using any
>lossless format - TIFF, PNG or even GIF.
>
>Also, if your original is JPG you may lose definition each time you
>save it. When you are happy, save as JPG (if you absolutely must have
>that format).

Hi,

thank you, but it's a misunderstanding.
You might have noticed that I'm migrating from Gimp to Krita ;), so I'm
not clueless regarding lossy formats.

I've never seen a difference regarding colour (saturation) like this
before. Issues related to loss are a very complex topic, see
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/384991/what-is-the-best-image-downscaling-algorithm-quality-wise/6171860.
A photo loaded already comes by a format... anyway, it's off-topic to
describe the whole process. It's not that easy as you said. However,
Krita provides several display options for scaling, but at 100% no
scaling is involved at all. If you take a look at the screenshot, the
view of Krita does show the picture creating the impression of a
saturated, yellow biased picture, while the exported JPEG, the
wallpaper, creates the impression of washed-out colours.

A countercheck, loading the _same_ JPEG of an original photo with Krita
and Mirage, both at 100% / 1:1 shows such a difference in
colouration, too.

FWIW the wallpaper is set via feh.

Apart from the scale settings, Krita provides settings for colour, too.
The default sRGB-elle-V2-srgbtrc.icc is used. I didn't test all
available (it's time consuming, since changing takes a while of
processing), but non of those I tested were better.

It doesn't make a difference if "Use system monitor profile" is or
isn't checked.

In sum, my question is really related to a Krita issue.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: Krita view and/or export issue

Karl Auer
On Mon, 2019-05-27 at 12:46 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users wrote:
> You might have noticed that I'm migrating from Gimp to Krita ;), so
> I'm not clueless regarding lossy formats.

I always assume people are clueless, it saves time. And it's not an
insult, we are all clueless about many things.

> In sum, my question is really related to a Krita issue.

Then you are probably best to go ask in a Krita-specific forum or
similar.

Also, next time provide all the detail up front. You just gave us an
image and said "what's wrong?", so we had to guess.


Regards, K.

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Re: Krita view and/or export issue

Karl Auer
In reply to this post by ubuntu-users mailing list
On Mon, 2019-05-27 at 12:46 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users wrote:
> In sum, my question is really related to a Krita issue.

PS: If you haven't already, google "krita colours washed out when
exported"

Regards, K.

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Re: Krita view and/or export issue

ubuntu-users mailing list
In reply to this post by Karl Auer
On Mon, 27 May 2019 21:09:39 +1000, Karl Auer wrote:
>Then you are probably best to go ask in a Krita-specific forum or
>similar.

Hi,

I tried to avoid to subscribe to hundreds of support channels.
However, in this case I did it again.

https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kimageshop/2019-May/015629.html

>Also, next time provide all the detail up front. You just gave us an
>image and said "what's wrong?"

A mail easily could become too long too read, I guess I already
provided relevant information:

"I try to migrate from Gimp to Krita.

Is anybody experienced in using Krita?

At the moment I'm puzzled on how to come closer to "what you see is
nearly what you get", than what I experience at the moment, see
https://i.imgur.com/2AySCGp.png.

The wallpaper JPEG was exported with high quality JPEG settings. I
suspect it's not only loss caused by the export. My guess is, that the
100% / 1:1 view of Krita already is biased.

Does somebody know what view settings to chose, to get an unbiased view?
If I make a wallpaper for the monitor I'm using with Krita, there's no
need for a profile that does any biasing at a 100% site view, let alone
that the used monitor provides colour profiles for different tasks." -

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2019-May/297066.html

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: Krita view and/or export issue

Mike Marchywka
On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 01:18:16PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users wrote:

> On Mon, 27 May 2019 21:09:39 +1000, Karl Auer wrote:
> >Then you are probably best to go ask in a Krita-specific forum or
> >similar.
>
> Hi,
>
> I tried to avoid to subscribe to hundreds of support channels.
> However, in this case I did it again.
>
> https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kimageshop/2019-May/015629.html
>
> >Also, next time provide all the detail up front. You just gave us an
> >image and said "what's wrong?"
>
> A mail easily could become too long too read, I guess I already
> provided relevant information:
>
> "I try to migrate from Gimp to Krita.
>
> Is anybody experienced in using Krita?
>
> At the moment I'm puzzled on how to come closer to "what you see is
> nearly what you get", than what I experience at the moment, see
> https://i.imgur.com/2AySCGp.png.

I missed most of the thread but did you look at before and after histograms
and opacity? That might be a good clue and should be easy to obtain.


>
> The wallpaper JPEG was exported with high quality JPEG settings. I
> suspect it's not only loss caused by the export. My guess is, that the
> 100% / 1:1 view of Krita already is biased.
>
> Does somebody know what view settings to chose, to get an unbiased view?
> If I make a wallpaper for the monitor I'm using with Krita, there's no
> need for a profile that does any biasing at a 100% site view, let alone
> that the used monitor provides colour profiles for different tasks." -
>
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2019-May/297066.html
>
> Regards,
> Ralf
>
>
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Re: Krita view and/or export issue

ubuntu-users mailing list
In reply to this post by Karl Auer
On Mon, 27 May 2019 21:12:00 +1000, Karl Auer wrote:
>If you haven't already, google "krita colours washed out when
>exported"

All hints I found by web research made the issues even more worse.

By testing I found out that

[ ] (unchecked) Use system monitor profile
Screen 1: Rec2020-elle-V2-srgbtrc.icc
Rendering intent: Perceptual

comes close to the exported wallpaper JPEG. Until now it provides the
best result. The remaining difference shouldn't, but could be related
to the export. I've done a countercheck with the same image again, see
https://i.imgur.com/NNxDZmf.png, Krita's view seems to be ok now. The
remaining difference of the exported JPEG (not shown by the screenshot)
might be "normal".


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Re: Krita view and/or export issue

Karl Auer
On Mon, 2019-05-27 at 14:11 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users wrote:
> comes close to the exported wallpaper JPEG. Until now it provides the
> best result.
> [...]
> The remaining difference of the exported JPEG (not shown by the
> screenshot) might be "normal".

How does it look if you export to an explicitly lossless format e.g
TIFF?

If you are concerned about quality, I do not understand why you are
bothering with JPG.

Regards, K.

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Re: Krita view and/or export issue

Mike Marchywka
In reply to this post by ubuntu-users mailing list
On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 02:11:19PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users wrote:

> On Mon, 27 May 2019 21:12:00 +1000, Karl Auer wrote:
> >If you haven't already, google "krita colours washed out when
> >exported"
>
> All hints I found by web research made the issues even more worse.
>
> By testing I found out that
>
> [ ] (unchecked) Use system monitor profile
> Screen 1: Rec2020-elle-V2-srgbtrc.icc
> Rendering intent: Perceptual
>
> comes close to the exported wallpaper JPEG. Until now it provides the
> best result. The remaining difference shouldn't, but could be related
> to the export. I've done a countercheck with the same image again, see
> https://i.imgur.com/NNxDZmf.png, Krita's view seems to be ok now. The
> remaining difference of the exported JPEG (not shown by the screenshot)
> might be "normal".

Pick a line and plot its value vs position that- removes the junk with the monitor.
See if the edge sharpness changes. One desirable feature of compression is that
is is only lossy on the first compress and that subsequent cycles with the same parameters
should give the same result but I'm not sure you can expect that here.
When you say wash out I assume you mean saturation but blur or jaggies could be a factor too.


If you can diagnose the problem in a way that points to a solution then you don't have
to guess with vague terms on google.

>
>
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Re: Krita view and/or export issue

ubuntu-users mailing list
In reply to this post by Karl Auer
On Mon, 27 May 2019 22:46:55 +1000, Karl Auer wrote:

>On Mon, 2019-05-27 at 14:11 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users wrote:
>> comes close to the exported wallpaper JPEG. Until now it provides the
>> best result.
>> [...]
>> The remaining difference of the exported JPEG (not shown by the
>> screenshot) might be "normal".  
>
>How does it look if you export to an explicitly lossless format e.g
>TIFF?
>
>If you are concerned about quality, I do not understand why you are
>bothering with JPG.

I either export a pixel graphic wallpaper to PNG or JPEG, since another
format doesn't make sense for a wallpaper. The issue with the extreme
error colour is not related to the export. Krita showed the picture
with a broken colour profile. For editing I use Gimp's own file format
when working with Gimp and Krita's own file format when working with
Krita. If I would export the existing artwork to a lossless format now,
it wouldn't divert from the Krita original anymore, but it anyway still
would not look as the artwork did look when I've done it in the first
place, since this picture was edited by using the broken colour
profile.

IOW I usually use a suitable file format for a wallpaper and if I
notice an issue after export, I use different settings or test another
file format.


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Re: Krita view and/or export issue

Colin Law
On Mon, 27 May 2019 at 14:17, Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Mon, 27 May 2019 22:46:55 +1000, Karl Auer wrote:
> >On Mon, 2019-05-27 at 14:11 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users wrote:
> >> comes close to the exported wallpaper JPEG. Until now it provides the
> >> best result.
> >> [...]
> >> The remaining difference of the exported JPEG (not shown by the
> >> screenshot) might be "normal".
> >
> >How does it look if you export to an explicitly lossless format e.g
> >TIFF?
> >
> >If you are concerned about quality, I do not understand why you are
> >bothering with JPG.
>
> I either export a pixel graphic wallpaper to PNG or JPEG, since another
> format doesn't make sense for a wallpaper. The issue with the extreme
> error colour is not related to the export. Krita showed the picture
> with a broken colour profile. For editing I use Gimp's own file format
> when working with Gimp and Krita's own file format when working with
> Krita. If I would export the existing artwork to a lossless format now,
> it wouldn't divert from the Krita original anymore, but it anyway still
> would not look as the artwork did look when I've done it in the first
> place, since this picture was edited by using the broken colour
> profile.
>
> IOW I usually use a suitable file format for a wallpaper and if I
> notice an issue after export, I use different settings or test another
> file format.

Are you saying that if you import an jpg and immediately export it (or
export it with minor edits) as a jpg that it dramatically changes it?

Colin

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Re: Krita view and/or export issue

ubuntu-users mailing list
In reply to this post by Mike Marchywka
On Mon, 27 May 2019 12:52:14 +0000, Mike Marchywka wrote:
>If you can diagnose the problem in a way that points to a solution
>then you don't have to guess with vague terms on google.

It's very simple.

Loading the same

  reference_picture.whatsoever_file_format

with Krita and other apps, it is viewed completely different by Krita,
than by any other app. I haven't done such a comparison in the first
place, since I never experienced such an issue with any other app.

I used Krita without being aware that Krita defaults to a broken colour
profile for the view. I noticed that, after exporting the artwork I've
done to a JPEG diverted that much from the original artwork, that it
never ever could be an issue related to the JPEG format. It still seemed
to be possible that it might be related to a broken export algorithm
used by Krita. Again I wasn't aware what was going on at that time,
since I try to migrate from Gimp to Krita.

I know how to do and export artwork with different software. I'm new to
Krita. I also don't have problems with "terms", I just tried to
describe the problem.

Comparing a reference picture using different apps wasn't my first
idea, right after the artwork was finished and exported. I did it after
taking a rest.

Internet research recommended viewing profiles that were way more
broken. Trial and error is very time-cosuming, since there are many
profiles available and it takes a few seconds to switch from one to the
other.

In the end I found a profile that seemingly isn't broken.


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Re: Krita view and/or export issue

ubuntu-users mailing list
In reply to this post by Colin Law
On Mon, 27 May 2019 14:33:04 +0100, Colin Law wrote:
>Are you saying that if you import an jpg and immediately export it (or
>export it with minor edits) as a jpg that it dramatically changes
>it?

Yesno, it happened, but the original cause of the issue is that the
view of Krita by default is broken, it's not the export that does cause
the problem.

If for testing purpose I "display a picture with Krita, then by default
I expect that it looks the same as when viewed with any other app, such
as a simple viewer such as feh or mirage, a web browser such as Firefox
or Chrome, as well as with other pixel manipulating software, such as
Gimp. Krita didn't, by using the defaults." For more information, such
as exif data of a reference picture used for testing purpose see
https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kimageshop/2019-May/015634.html.

Perhaps I should stay with Gimp for work such artwork as making a
wallpaper for my Linux PC. It's just a pity that latest releases of
Gimp suffers from issues on Ubuntu and Arch and probably on other
distros, too.


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