Let's get serious about Edubuntu's future

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Let's get serious about Edubuntu's future

Bugzilla from sh@lutzhaase.com
Hello everybody,

in case there actually is somebody left to read this message. I think it
is finally time to act. On IRC, we agree a lot that Edubuntu is
definitely going the wrong direction, which right now would be 'none'.
We all know that Canonical has largely lost interest in developing,
maintaining and caring for Edubuntu in general.
Some weeks ago, some people set out to get an official answer from
Canonical so that some light be shed on Edubuntu's current point of
existence but so far no answer has appeared and I doubt it will any time
soon.

I think Edubuntu's fate is now entirely in our capable hands. I suggest
we either have a live meeting on IRC at some point in the near future or
just keep discussing in this thread what is going to happen to Edubuntu.

To be more precise what I think Edubuntu is lacking currently (so we
agree about the short-comings):

1) Direction. I think Edubuntu has been without actual vision for some
time now. I don't mean to say that Edubuntu is a piece of crap, I mean
to say that currently it serves neither groups' interests to the point
which would be required to make it outstanding. The groups, as I see it,
would be:
1.1) Schools that want to deploy LTSP clients _EASILY_
1.2) Workstations at schools (for example a physics workstation in the
physics rooms)
1.3) Private users at home (for children, obviously)

2) Documentation. Currently, if you want to deploy LTSP clients and you
want to be informed about LTSP 5 (assuming you even know what that is,
imagine you are teacher trying out Edubuntu!), you will have to search
the official LTSP documentation, the Ubuntu LTSP documentation, the
Edubuntu cookbook, the Edubuntu handbook, the Edubuntu wiki. You WILL
find conflicting material and most of the stuff you find doesn't even
apply anymore (LTSP 4.2 anyone?). The user wants ONE definitive resource
for looking up things, to get going, for tips, to look for help. So
*many* scattered and contradicting resources are not very reassuring for
a school's IT admin to say it mildly.
Personally, I'm still a student but I serve as my school's primary IT
administrator and I would rate myself as quite Linux literate, maybe
even 'expert' (from a user's and administrator's point of view, that
is). I was not able to gather a definitive set of resources that would
always apply to what I wanted LTSP/Edubuntu to do. Maybe I'm just
incompetent but I imagine a natural sciences teacher with mere Windows
user experience wouldn't perform any better, if at all.

3) Split distribution. It seems that the Edubuntu-Addon itself is a
major problem for people wanting to try out Edubuntu. People want to TRY
Edubuntu. Most schools are completely Windows dependent and teachers are
afraid of installing anything they would not be able to get rid of
themselves. Edubuntu NEEDS to be able to showcase all its features from
a live system or many people will be afraid of even trying it out in a
running infrastructure (for a good reason). This will probably mean that
a LTSP environment will have to fit the live medium, which will make it
grow beyond CD size at any rate which on the other hand wouldn't matter
all that much judging by how popular DVD/USB is nowadays. Edubuntu
should NOT be restricted to fit onto a CD, that would be totally
unnecessary.

Those are my main three gripes. There are some minor ones but I won't go
over those now because it would probably make this mail lose direction.

I suggest completely revising Edubuntu and maybe even consider changing
the name. I thought about forking Ubuntu to Schoolbuntu but I'd rather
continue working under 'Edubuntu'. In case Canonical has other plans
with that name, though, I see nothing wrong with starting a separate
project forked from Ubuntu itself.

A few straight goals need to be set out for Edubuntu (or whatever the
name is going to be). We need to think about the target group. Currently
Edubuntu is just an Ubuntu with a couple of fancy educations in it that
match the tag 'education' and a LTSP server sitting beside. General
purpose is great for general stuff but in this case we're dealing with a
quite specialized use case and therefore Edubuntu might as well
specialize. For general purpose stuff, the is Ubuntu Alternate with LTSP.

A lot of the previous efforts will have to be discarded in order to make
place for something new and consistent. A "revolution" is needed, in my
opinion.

What we need is a dedicated bunch of a few people that are willing and
knowledgeable enough to help out to get things rolling. This would
require a great deal of spare time which I have but I assume others do not.

Let's hope somebody sees this.

-- Sven-Hendrik Haase

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Re: Let's get serious about Edubuntu's future

Mario Đanić
Hi Sven,

at least me and Jonathan from the Edubuntu community will be at UDS. Let's see what happens there, so together we can decide on a good plan of action. Ok? :)

Cheers,
M.

On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 21:54, Sven-Hendrik Haase <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello everybody,

in case there actually is somebody left to read this message. I think it
is finally time to act. On IRC, we agree a lot that Edubuntu is
definitely going the wrong direction, which right now would be 'none'.
We all know that Canonical has largely lost interest in developing,
maintaining and caring for Edubuntu in general.
Some weeks ago, some people set out to get an official answer from
Canonical so that some light be shed on Edubuntu's current point of
existence but so far no answer has appeared and I doubt it will any time
soon.

I think Edubuntu's fate is now entirely in our capable hands. I suggest
we either have a live meeting on IRC at some point in the near future or
just keep discussing in this thread what is going to happen to Edubuntu.

To be more precise what I think Edubuntu is lacking currently (so we
agree about the short-comings):

1) Direction. I think Edubuntu has been without actual vision for some
time now. I don't mean to say that Edubuntu is a piece of crap, I mean
to say that currently it serves neither groups' interests to the point
which would be required to make it outstanding. The groups, as I see it,
would be:
1.1) Schools that want to deploy LTSP clients _EASILY_
1.2) Workstations at schools (for example a physics workstation in the
physics rooms)
1.3) Private users at home (for children, obviously)

2) Documentation. Currently, if you want to deploy LTSP clients and you
want to be informed about LTSP 5 (assuming you even know what that is,
imagine you are teacher trying out Edubuntu!), you will have to search
the official LTSP documentation, the Ubuntu LTSP documentation, the
Edubuntu cookbook, the Edubuntu handbook, the Edubuntu wiki. You WILL
find conflicting material and most of the stuff you find doesn't even
apply anymore (LTSP 4.2 anyone?). The user wants ONE definitive resource
for looking up things, to get going, for tips, to look for help. So
*many* scattered and contradicting resources are not very reassuring for
a school's IT admin to say it mildly.
Personally, I'm still a student but I serve as my school's primary IT
administrator and I would rate myself as quite Linux literate, maybe
even 'expert' (from a user's and administrator's point of view, that
is). I was not able to gather a definitive set of resources that would
always apply to what I wanted LTSP/Edubuntu to do. Maybe I'm just
incompetent but I imagine a natural sciences teacher with mere Windows
user experience wouldn't perform any better, if at all.

3) Split distribution. It seems that the Edubuntu-Addon itself is a
major problem for people wanting to try out Edubuntu. People want to TRY
Edubuntu. Most schools are completely Windows dependent and teachers are
afraid of installing anything they would not be able to get rid of
themselves. Edubuntu NEEDS to be able to showcase all its features from
a live system or many people will be afraid of even trying it out in a
running infrastructure (for a good reason). This will probably mean that
a LTSP environment will have to fit the live medium, which will make it
grow beyond CD size at any rate which on the other hand wouldn't matter
all that much judging by how popular DVD/USB is nowadays. Edubuntu
should NOT be restricted to fit onto a CD, that would be totally
unnecessary.

Those are my main three gripes. There are some minor ones but I won't go
over those now because it would probably make this mail lose direction.

I suggest completely revising Edubuntu and maybe even consider changing
the name. I thought about forking Ubuntu to Schoolbuntu but I'd rather
continue working under 'Edubuntu'. In case Canonical has other plans
with that name, though, I see nothing wrong with starting a separate
project forked from Ubuntu itself.

A few straight goals need to be set out for Edubuntu (or whatever the
name is going to be). We need to think about the target group. Currently
Edubuntu is just an Ubuntu with a couple of fancy educations in it that
match the tag 'education' and a LTSP server sitting beside. General
purpose is great for general stuff but in this case we're dealing with a
quite specialized use case and therefore Edubuntu might as well
specialize. For general purpose stuff, the is Ubuntu Alternate with LTSP.

A lot of the previous efforts will have to be discarded in order to make
place for something new and consistent. A "revolution" is needed, in my
opinion.

What we need is a dedicated bunch of a few people that are willing and
knowledgeable enough to help out to get things rolling. This would
require a great deal of spare time which I have but I assume others do not.

Let's hope somebody sees this.

-- Sven-Hendrik Haase

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Re: Let's get serious about Edubuntu's future

Jordan Erickson
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from sh@lutzhaase.com
Hey Sven,

I'm gonna keep this quick and to the point.

Edubuntu shouldn't necessarily be tied to LTSP, at all anymore. It's not
about LTSP - it's about the educational applications and themes
available for Ubuntu. It *was* about LTSP, a while back, which is what
gave Edubuntu most of its popularity (easy LTSP installation method),
but now that was merged with the Ubuntu Alternate CD. From this
migration, Edubuntu has lost a lot of focus, both with devs and
users/admins. We shouldn't be focussing on LTSP at all with Edubuntu
anymore. It's available alongside it, but shouldn't be mentioned as PART
of Edubuntu at all. It'll be hard to break, I still see people hopping
on IRC and asking LTSP questions in #edubuntu.

The maintenance and grouping of educational applications and educational
themes/artwork is a good focus for Edubuntu - obviously, the people who
are involved with Edubuntu care a lot about these apps and their
successful integration into Ubuntu. They care a lot about the ease of
installation by school staff, to have a ready-to-go set of
education-based software for whatever type of school you're in. I think
this is a good thing, but shouldn't be the *only* focus (it's fairly
limited to the devs and package managers, which is a tiny subset of
people who *could* be contributing, such as countless motivated school
staff that want to have *buntu in their schools).

Personally, I think the people who comprise the Edubuntu community
should be primarily focussed on *promoting* Ubuntu directly to schools
and educational environments (after school clubs for kids, computer labs
everywhere, even libraries, etc.). I think the motivation is there for
all of us to want to see it out there being used by as many students as
possible (again I'm not just talking about the Edubuntu apps, but Ubuntu
as a whole). IMHO I think Edubuntu should shift general focus to being a
community of marketing (ick..I hate that word) F/OSS software, primarily
Ubuntu-based, in education. I think we need to collaborate on presenting
information such as easy to understand documentation, videos, and
anything else we can think of to the world of educational institutions.
I think video is of primary importance, in particular. Almost anyone can
jump on Youtube these days. We need to utilize what we have to expose
people to this great community and what we're trying to do to better
students' education. IMO We need people to hear "Edubuntu" and
immediately think "Those are the ones that *get* open source into
schools!" I'm definitely ready to do that, in fact that's what I've been
doing for the past 3 years. I started with Edubuntu because of LTSP, but
now I generally install Ubuntu and LTSP on top of it. Any educational
apps my schools want, I'll install for them. They need my help because
they don't know how to do it. I want to do more to help make it as easy
as possible for others. I guess what I'm saying is that maybe Edubuntu
should focus on the service, and not the product so much.

Just my $0.02...whoops, that wasn't quick. ;)


Cheers,
Jordan/Lns



Sven-Hendrik Haase wrote:

> Hello everybody,
>
> in case there actually is somebody left to read this message. I think it
> is finally time to act. On IRC, we agree a lot that Edubuntu is
> definitely going the wrong direction, which right now would be 'none'.
> We all know that Canonical has largely lost interest in developing,
> maintaining and caring for Edubuntu in general.
> Some weeks ago, some people set out to get an official answer from
> Canonical so that some light be shed on Edubuntu's current point of
> existence but so far no answer has appeared and I doubt it will any time
> soon.
>
> I think Edubuntu's fate is now entirely in our capable hands. I suggest
> we either have a live meeting on IRC at some point in the near future or
> just keep discussing in this thread what is going to happen to Edubuntu.
>
> To be more precise what I think Edubuntu is lacking currently (so we
> agree about the short-comings):
>
> 1) Direction. I think Edubuntu has been without actual vision for some
> time now. I don't mean to say that Edubuntu is a piece of crap, I mean
> to say that currently it serves neither groups' interests to the point
> which would be required to make it outstanding. The groups, as I see it,
> would be:
> 1.1) Schools that want to deploy LTSP clients _EASILY_
> 1.2) Workstations at schools (for example a physics workstation in the
> physics rooms)
> 1.3) Private users at home (for children, obviously)
>
> 2) Documentation. Currently, if you want to deploy LTSP clients and you
> want to be informed about LTSP 5 (assuming you even know what that is,
> imagine you are teacher trying out Edubuntu!), you will have to search
> the official LTSP documentation, the Ubuntu LTSP documentation, the
> Edubuntu cookbook, the Edubuntu handbook, the Edubuntu wiki. You WILL
> find conflicting material and most of the stuff you find doesn't even
> apply anymore (LTSP 4.2 anyone?). The user wants ONE definitive resource
> for looking up things, to get going, for tips, to look for help. So
> *many* scattered and contradicting resources are not very reassuring for
> a school's IT admin to say it mildly.
> Personally, I'm still a student but I serve as my school's primary IT
> administrator and I would rate myself as quite Linux literate, maybe
> even 'expert' (from a user's and administrator's point of view, that
> is). I was not able to gather a definitive set of resources that would
> always apply to what I wanted LTSP/Edubuntu to do. Maybe I'm just
> incompetent but I imagine a natural sciences teacher with mere Windows
> user experience wouldn't perform any better, if at all.
>
> 3) Split distribution. It seems that the Edubuntu-Addon itself is a
> major problem for people wanting to try out Edubuntu. People want to TRY
> Edubuntu. Most schools are completely Windows dependent and teachers are
> afraid of installing anything they would not be able to get rid of
> themselves. Edubuntu NEEDS to be able to showcase all its features from
> a live system or many people will be afraid of even trying it out in a
> running infrastructure (for a good reason). This will probably mean that
> a LTSP environment will have to fit the live medium, which will make it
> grow beyond CD size at any rate which on the other hand wouldn't matter
> all that much judging by how popular DVD/USB is nowadays. Edubuntu
> should NOT be restricted to fit onto a CD, that would be totally
> unnecessary.
>
> Those are my main three gripes. There are some minor ones but I won't go
> over those now because it would probably make this mail lose direction.
>
> I suggest completely revising Edubuntu and maybe even consider changing
> the name. I thought about forking Ubuntu to Schoolbuntu but I'd rather
> continue working under 'Edubuntu'. In case Canonical has other plans
> with that name, though, I see nothing wrong with starting a separate
> project forked from Ubuntu itself.
>
> A few straight goals need to be set out for Edubuntu (or whatever the
> name is going to be). We need to think about the target group. Currently
> Edubuntu is just an Ubuntu with a couple of fancy educations in it that
> match the tag 'education' and a LTSP server sitting beside. General
> purpose is great for general stuff but in this case we're dealing with a
> quite specialized use case and therefore Edubuntu might as well
> specialize. For general purpose stuff, the is Ubuntu Alternate with LTSP.
>
> A lot of the previous efforts will have to be discarded in order to make
> place for something new and consistent. A "revolution" is needed, in my
> opinion.
>
> What we need is a dedicated bunch of a few people that are willing and
> knowledgeable enough to help out to get things rolling. This would
> require a great deal of spare time which I have but I assume others do not.
>
> Let's hope somebody sees this.
>
> -- Sven-Hendrik Haase
>  



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Re: Let's get serious about Edubuntu's future

Scott Balneaves
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from sh@lutzhaase.com
On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 09:54:28PM +0200, Sven-Hendrik Haase wrote:

<snip>

> I think Edubuntu's fate is now entirely in our capable hands.

Oooohhh, boy.  Read on...

> I suggest
> we either have a live meeting on IRC at some point in the near future or
> just keep discussing in this thread what is going to happen to Edubuntu.

I've been busy as heck for the last 6 months, and haven't had a lot of time to
devote to Edubuntu.  However, if a meeting is planned, I'll show up.

<snip>

> 1) Direction. I think Edubuntu has been without actual vision for some
> time now.

Well, IMHO, this is incorrect.  The problem we've got is that there's a HUGE
AMOUNT of vision.  There's diddly-squat all people actually turning vision into
code/bugfixes/docs. etc.

<snip>

> 2) Documentation. Currently, if you want to deploy LTSP clients and you
> want to be informed about LTSP 5 (assuming you even know what that is,
> imagine you are teacher trying out Edubuntu!), you will have to search
> the official LTSP documentation, the Ubuntu LTSP documentation, the
> Edubuntu cookbook, the Edubuntu handbook, the Edubuntu wiki.

I spent an ENORMOUS amount of time 2-3 releases ago
organizing/colating/documenting the Edubuntu handbook, with LOTS of people
telling me they were going to contribute a lot of information.

Amount contributed: next to none.

Most of the existing XML Docbook info on LTSP 5 was contributed by me.  The
upstream docs were pulled out of, and updated from, the edubuntu handbook, with
the intention that they could be *included* from the upstream sources into the
edubuntu handbook which could then focus on documenting some of the higher
level aspects of running edubuntu (documenting some of the education programs,
more "why"'s instead of "how"'s etc.

> You WILL
> find conflicting material and most of the stuff you find doesn't even
> apply anymore (LTSP 4.2 anyone?). The user wants ONE definitive resource
> for looking up things, to get going, for tips, to look for help. So
> *many* scattered and contradicting resources are not very reassuring for
> a school's IT admin to say it mildly.

Agreed.  So, I have been working on the LTSP part of the docs, who's going to
start a branch on the rest of the docs?  I'll be happy to coordinate with
whoever.

> 3) Split distribution. It seems that the Edubuntu-Addon itself is a
> major problem for people wanting to try out Edubuntu. People want to TRY
> Edubuntu. Most schools are completely Windows dependent and teachers are
> afraid of installing anything they would not be able to get rid of
> themselves. Edubuntu NEEDS to be able to showcase all its features from
> a live system or many people will be afraid of even trying it out in a
> running infrastructure (for a good reason). This will probably mean that
> a LTSP environment will have to fit the live medium, which will make it
> grow beyond CD size at any rate which on the other hand wouldn't matter
> all that much judging by how popular DVD/USB is nowadays. Edubuntu
> should NOT be restricted to fit onto a CD, that would be totally
> unnecessary.

Lots of people want to try Edubuntu in Brazil and Africa, neither of which has
got a lot of DVD penetration yet.  So, you need to support both.

As well, producing a bootable CD or DVD's a HUGE undertaking (just ask ogra).
Someone's got to step forward and be willing to DO this.  It means code.  It
means hours and hours of work.

> Those are my main three gripes. There are some minor ones but I won't go
> over those now because it would probably make this mail lose direction.

Another one that I'm still committed to working on, is getting sabayon to work
correctly, as we need a management tool for desktops.  Again, my work life
intrudes.

> I suggest

Here is the core problem.

And I'm not meaning to take this out on you: there's been many, MANY people
who've *suggested* things about edubuntu/ltsp/ubuntu/linux/Open Source in
general.  What people never seem to get is the following:

Edubuntu doesn't need more suggestions.
Edubuntu needs more people sitting at more keyboards looking at more bug
reports coding more patches that fix more problems.  That's the bit we're
lacking.

> completely revising Edubuntu and maybe even consider changing
> the name. I thought about forking Ubuntu to Schoolbuntu but I'd rather
> continue working under 'Edubuntu'. In case Canonical has other plans
> with that name, though, I see nothing wrong with starting a separate
> project forked from Ubuntu itself.

Don't change the name
Don't fork the project
Don't revise edubuntu

DO fix bugs
DO write documentation
DO write new pieces of software to fill in gaps

> What we need is a dedicated bunch of a few people that are willing and
> knowledgeable enough to help out to get things rolling. This would
> require a great deal of spare time which I have but I assume others do not.

8 months or so ago we announced a bug day.  I *booked a day off work at my
expense* with the understanding that people from the mailing list were going to
show up and help me:

1) Identify the top bugs that were bothering us.
2) Test *exactly* what triggered the bug.
3) Help me to trace though the code to find the problem, and come up with a
   solution
4) Test solutions.

This idea of a bug day was implemented as a result of mailings on this list.
Everyone saw it, everyone knew about it.

Number of people who showed up for the 16+ hours I worked on bugs (Besides
LaserJock): 0.

About a month after bug day, work started getting heavy, and I admit I've kind
of drifted away from Edubuntu.  I'd love to come back.  I'd love to get in
there and work.  But it's supposed to be a *community*.  Not just me and a
couple of other people slaving away, with the "users" at large going "meh, why
don't things get fixed fast enough.... this sucks... etc."

If people aren't going to get involved helping to fix their own problems, why
should I?  I'm perfectly capable of solving my own problems all by my lonesome.

Name a day and time, I'll show up for the IRC meeting.

Cheers,
Scott

--
Scott L. Balneaves | He that breaks a thing to find out what it is
Systems Department | has left the path of wisdom.
Legal Aid Manitoba |     -- J.R.R. Tolkien

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Re: Let's get serious about Edubuntu's future

Bugzilla from sh@lutzhaase.com
On 19.05.2009 22:51, Scott Balneaves wrote:
On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 09:54:28PM +0200, Sven-Hendrik Haase wrote:


  
I suggest
we either have a live meeting on IRC at some point in the near future or
just keep discussing in this thread what is going to happen to Edubuntu.
    

I've been busy as heck for the last 6 months, and haven't had a lot of time to
devote to Edubuntu.  However, if a meeting is planned, I'll show up.

<snip>
  
In #edubuntu we decided not to act to drastically until UDS is over. We hope that Canonical are going to give us an official statement to Edubuntu's future.


  
1) Direction. I think Edubuntu has been without actual vision for some
time now.
    

Well, IMHO, this is incorrect.  The problem we've got is that there's a HUGE
AMOUNT of vision.  There's diddly-squat all people actually turning vision into
code/bugfixes/docs. etc.
  
I think this is part of the problem. I think Edubuntu should try to tackle one problem at a time, starting at the lowest problem difficulty: A workstation desktop with education applications which is pretty much what Edubuntu is right now and should be an easy first focus. Tackle harder stuff a little later on once one part has been polished.

As well, producing a bootable CD or DVD's a HUGE undertaking (just ask ogra).
Someone's got to step forward and be willing to DO this.  It means code.  It
means hours and hours of work.
  
I've been building another distribution over the last couple of weeks and it's actually quite easy once you grasp the underlying concept. The tools are there already, so it's really not that much in need of coding, just a bit of scripting. Building the images themselves doesn't take too long either. So yeah, I'm stepping up and am willing to do this :).

I suggest
    

Here is the core problem.

And I'm not meaning to take this out on you: there's been many, MANY people
who've *suggested* things about edubuntu/ltsp/ubuntu/linux/Open Source in
general.  What people never seem to get is the following:

Edubuntu doesn't need more suggestions.
Edubuntu needs more people sitting at more keyboards looking at more bug
reports coding more patches that fix more problems.  That's the bit we're
lacking.

  
Well, would you have preferred me saying that I *decided*? That would mean starting up something on my own with no coordination or team which was not in my intention. I'm NOT the one who just talks and doesn't do but I understand that a project this size isn't something I'm going to do on an afternoon all by myself. I am happily the person to get his hands dirty first, though.


  
completely revising Edubuntu and maybe even consider changing
the name. I thought about forking Ubuntu to Schoolbuntu but I'd rather
continue working under 'Edubuntu'. In case Canonical has other plans
with that name, though, I see nothing wrong with starting a separate
project forked from Ubuntu itself.
    

Don't change the name
Don't fork the project
Don't revise edubuntu

DO fix bugs
DO write documentation
DO write new pieces of software to fill in gaps
  
This wouldn't seem too drastic. It would mean going the same direction, still, and that didn't work out too well in my opinion. Why not revise Edubuntu (or rather, revive)? Also, forking would allow me to *do* just as I see fit and Edubuntu could profit from it. Currently in Edubuntu, my hands are more or less bound to my back. I'm uncertain about the Canonical situation, I don't have any permissions for the website, I can't just throw out all the old documentation or people would get angry, I can't deviate from its current course.
I'm not saying a fork is necessary, but it would allow me to gather some much needed technical experience about building and integrating a live distro on Ubuntu with LTSP.

If, however, you say I should go ahead and just work on Edubuntu where ever I see fit and make it what I want it to be, I will happily do that. But I want to be sure that the work I'm going to invest is not going to be discarded because what I did wasn't in the project's intentions.

Please do not take any offense in any of the stuff I say or said. I can see that you've been very involved with Edubuntu and that you've invested a great deal of time into it. But I can also see that you are not too happy about the way things are currently (declining/dead community, few people helping, lots of hot air, lack of Canonical support).
So even then, why do you want to keep steering the current course? In the past, it might have worked due to Canonicals support, now I'm pretty sure that won't do any more. Let's concentrate on a few things. Get diagrams up. Get a wiki up. And I don't mean Edubuntu's wiki, I mean a new wiki just for refurbishing Edubuntu so it can get back up to speed.

Since you don't like talkers, I'll try to get to know the casper system a bit in the coming days and release a DVD containing a built LTSP image and a full Edubuntu environment and see how it turns out.

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Re: Let's get serious about Edubuntu's future

Efrain Valles-2
In reply to this post by Scott Balneaves
I have been one that has been trying to contribute for a while now. I
can step up and help in every way I can. I can do some basic packaging
and some basic coding on python and java.

Is there a to do list in edubuntu... make them into taks and start to
see what we can do for the next release. lets keep the objectives
simple and that should help new contributors like me become more
commited to the edubuntu front.

kudos to all of those who have made edubuntu rock in the past presente
and future.

P.S. I will be attending UDS and would love to meet up and write specs
for things to happen for karmic.

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Scott Balneaves
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 09:54:28PM +0200, Sven-Hendrik Haase wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I think Edubuntu's fate is now entirely in our capable hands.
>
> Oooohhh, boy.  Read on...
>
>> I suggest
>> we either have a live meeting on IRC at some point in the near future or
>> just keep discussing in this thread what is going to happen to Edubuntu.
>
> I've been busy as heck for the last 6 months, and haven't had a lot of time to
> devote to Edubuntu.  However, if a meeting is planned, I'll show up.
>
> <snip>
>
>> 1) Direction. I think Edubuntu has been without actual vision for some
>> time now.
>
> Well, IMHO, this is incorrect.  The problem we've got is that there's a HUGE
> AMOUNT of vision.  There's diddly-squat all people actually turning vision into
> code/bugfixes/docs. etc.
>
> <snip>
>
>> 2) Documentation. Currently, if you want to deploy LTSP clients and you
>> want to be informed about LTSP 5 (assuming you even know what that is,
>> imagine you are teacher trying out Edubuntu!), you will have to search
>> the official LTSP documentation, the Ubuntu LTSP documentation, the
>> Edubuntu cookbook, the Edubuntu handbook, the Edubuntu wiki.
>
> I spent an ENORMOUS amount of time 2-3 releases ago
> organizing/colating/documenting the Edubuntu handbook, with LOTS of people
> telling me they were going to contribute a lot of information.
>
> Amount contributed: next to none.
>
> Most of the existing XML Docbook info on LTSP 5 was contributed by me.  The
> upstream docs were pulled out of, and updated from, the edubuntu handbook, with
> the intention that they could be *included* from the upstream sources into the
> edubuntu handbook which could then focus on documenting some of the higher
> level aspects of running edubuntu (documenting some of the education programs,
> more "why"'s instead of "how"'s etc.
>
>> You WILL
>> find conflicting material and most of the stuff you find doesn't even
>> apply anymore (LTSP 4.2 anyone?). The user wants ONE definitive resource
>> for looking up things, to get going, for tips, to look for help. So
>> *many* scattered and contradicting resources are not very reassuring for
>> a school's IT admin to say it mildly.
>
> Agreed.  So, I have been working on the LTSP part of the docs, who's going to
> start a branch on the rest of the docs?  I'll be happy to coordinate with
> whoever.
>
>> 3) Split distribution. It seems that the Edubuntu-Addon itself is a
>> major problem for people wanting to try out Edubuntu. People want to TRY
>> Edubuntu. Most schools are completely Windows dependent and teachers are
>> afraid of installing anything they would not be able to get rid of
>> themselves. Edubuntu NEEDS to be able to showcase all its features from
>> a live system or many people will be afraid of even trying it out in a
>> running infrastructure (for a good reason). This will probably mean that
>> a LTSP environment will have to fit the live medium, which will make it
>> grow beyond CD size at any rate which on the other hand wouldn't matter
>> all that much judging by how popular DVD/USB is nowadays. Edubuntu
>> should NOT be restricted to fit onto a CD, that would be totally
>> unnecessary.
>
> Lots of people want to try Edubuntu in Brazil and Africa, neither of which has
> got a lot of DVD penetration yet.  So, you need to support both.
>
> As well, producing a bootable CD or DVD's a HUGE undertaking (just ask ogra).
> Someone's got to step forward and be willing to DO this.  It means code.  It
> means hours and hours of work.
>
>> Those are my main three gripes. There are some minor ones but I won't go
>> over those now because it would probably make this mail lose direction.
>
> Another one that I'm still committed to working on, is getting sabayon to work
> correctly, as we need a management tool for desktops.  Again, my work life
> intrudes.
>
>> I suggest
>
> Here is the core problem.
>
> And I'm not meaning to take this out on you: there's been many, MANY people
> who've *suggested* things about edubuntu/ltsp/ubuntu/linux/Open Source in
> general.  What people never seem to get is the following:
>
> Edubuntu doesn't need more suggestions.
> Edubuntu needs more people sitting at more keyboards looking at more bug
> reports coding more patches that fix more problems.  That's the bit we're
> lacking.
>
>> completely revising Edubuntu and maybe even consider changing
>> the name. I thought about forking Ubuntu to Schoolbuntu but I'd rather
>> continue working under 'Edubuntu'. In case Canonical has other plans
>> with that name, though, I see nothing wrong with starting a separate
>> project forked from Ubuntu itself.
>
> Don't change the name
> Don't fork the project
> Don't revise edubuntu
>
> DO fix bugs
> DO write documentation
> DO write new pieces of software to fill in gaps
>
>> What we need is a dedicated bunch of a few people that are willing and
>> knowledgeable enough to help out to get things rolling. This would
>> require a great deal of spare time which I have but I assume others do not.
>
> 8 months or so ago we announced a bug day.  I *booked a day off work at my
> expense* with the understanding that people from the mailing list were going to
> show up and help me:
>
> 1) Identify the top bugs that were bothering us.
> 2) Test *exactly* what triggered the bug.
> 3) Help me to trace though the code to find the problem, and come up with a
>   solution
> 4) Test solutions.
>
> This idea of a bug day was implemented as a result of mailings on this list.
> Everyone saw it, everyone knew about it.
>
> Number of people who showed up for the 16+ hours I worked on bugs (Besides
> LaserJock): 0.
>
> About a month after bug day, work started getting heavy, and I admit I've kind
> of drifted away from Edubuntu.  I'd love to come back.  I'd love to get in
> there and work.  But it's supposed to be a *community*.  Not just me and a
> couple of other people slaving away, with the "users" at large going "meh, why
> don't things get fixed fast enough.... this sucks... etc."
>
> If people aren't going to get involved helping to fix their own problems, why
> should I?  I'm perfectly capable of solving my own problems all by my lonesome.
>
> Name a day and time, I'll show up for the IRC meeting.
>
> Cheers,
> Scott
>
> --
> Scott L. Balneaves | He that breaks a thing to find out what it is
> Systems Department | has left the path of wisdom.
> Legal Aid Manitoba |     -- J.R.R. Tolkien
>
> --
> edubuntu-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-devel
>



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https://launchpad.net/~effie-jayx
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Ubuntu Membership Board of the Americas Member
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Re: Let's get serious about Edubuntu's future

David Van Assche
If this is real, then I'm up for helping. I wanna see the code first though :-) It was me that ripped out the edubuntu ltsp handbook stuff and did the ltsp upstream handbook creation, did most of the major rewriting along with Scott, as well as editing the edubuntu.org site and updating the set of apps available as the addons, fatclient for ltsp, and a fair set of other things. So its not hot air from my end. Show us the code, and we'll step up... till then, this remains a wonderful set of dreams... and the possibility of a revival to a now defunct community... If u want I can forward u a set of edu apps that I reviewed and tested for Jaunty but that never made it in... That would at least start making it look a little like a distro closer to what opensuse-edu is, a fully working and quite beautiful educational distro, ready for the HP laptops novell has made a deal supporting. Oh... I am also the sugar maintainer for openSUSE, which is now at 0.84 with the largest set of activities of any distro... show me what u've got, and I'll add all I've done to make edubuntu catch up...

David (Nubae) Van Assche

On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 6:58 PM, Efrain <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have been one that has been trying to contribute for a while now. I
can step up and help in every way I can. I can do some basic packaging
and some basic coding on python and java.

Is there a to do list in edubuntu... make them into taks and start to
see what we can do for the next release. lets keep the objectives
simple and that should help new contributors like me become more
commited to the edubuntu front.

kudos to all of those who have made edubuntu rock in the past presente
and future.

P.S. I will be attending UDS and would love to meet up and write specs
for things to happen for karmic.

On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Scott Balneaves
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 09:54:28PM +0200, Sven-Hendrik Haase wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I think Edubuntu's fate is now entirely in our capable hands.
>
> Oooohhh, boy.  Read on...
>
>> I suggest
>> we either have a live meeting on IRC at some point in the near future or
>> just keep discussing in this thread what is going to happen to Edubuntu.
>
> I've been busy as heck for the last 6 months, and haven't had a lot of time to
> devote to Edubuntu.  However, if a meeting is planned, I'll show up.
>
> <snip>
>
>> 1) Direction. I think Edubuntu has been without actual vision for some
>> time now.
>
> Well, IMHO, this is incorrect.  The problem we've got is that there's a HUGE
> AMOUNT of vision.  There's diddly-squat all people actually turning vision into
> code/bugfixes/docs. etc.
>
> <snip>
>
>> 2) Documentation. Currently, if you want to deploy LTSP clients and you
>> want to be informed about LTSP 5 (assuming you even know what that is,
>> imagine you are teacher trying out Edubuntu!), you will have to search
>> the official LTSP documentation, the Ubuntu LTSP documentation, the
>> Edubuntu cookbook, the Edubuntu handbook, the Edubuntu wiki.
>
> I spent an ENORMOUS amount of time 2-3 releases ago
> organizing/colating/documenting the Edubuntu handbook, with LOTS of people
> telling me they were going to contribute a lot of information.
>
> Amount contributed: next to none.
>
> Most of the existing XML Docbook info on LTSP 5 was contributed by me.  The
> upstream docs were pulled out of, and updated from, the edubuntu handbook, with
> the intention that they could be *included* from the upstream sources into the
> edubuntu handbook which could then focus on documenting some of the higher
> level aspects of running edubuntu (documenting some of the education programs,
> more "why"'s instead of "how"'s etc.
>
>> You WILL
>> find conflicting material and most of the stuff you find doesn't even
>> apply anymore (LTSP 4.2 anyone?). The user wants ONE definitive resource
>> for looking up things, to get going, for tips, to look for help. So
>> *many* scattered and contradicting resources are not very reassuring for
>> a school's IT admin to say it mildly.
>
> Agreed.  So, I have been working on the LTSP part of the docs, who's going to
> start a branch on the rest of the docs?  I'll be happy to coordinate with
> whoever.
>
>> 3) Split distribution. It seems that the Edubuntu-Addon itself is a
>> major problem for people wanting to try out Edubuntu. People want to TRY
>> Edubuntu. Most schools are completely Windows dependent and teachers are
>> afraid of installing anything they would not be able to get rid of
>> themselves. Edubuntu NEEDS to be able to showcase all its features from
>> a live system or many people will be afraid of even trying it out in a
>> running infrastructure (for a good reason). This will probably mean that
>> a LTSP environment will have to fit the live medium, which will make it
>> grow beyond CD size at any rate which on the other hand wouldn't matter
>> all that much judging by how popular DVD/USB is nowadays. Edubuntu
>> should NOT be restricted to fit onto a CD, that would be totally
>> unnecessary.
>
> Lots of people want to try Edubuntu in Brazil and Africa, neither of which has
> got a lot of DVD penetration yet.  So, you need to support both.
>
> As well, producing a bootable CD or DVD's a HUGE undertaking (just ask ogra).
> Someone's got to step forward and be willing to DO this.  It means code.  It
> means hours and hours of work.
>
>> Those are my main three gripes. There are some minor ones but I won't go
>> over those now because it would probably make this mail lose direction.
>
> Another one that I'm still committed to working on, is getting sabayon to work
> correctly, as we need a management tool for desktops.  Again, my work life
> intrudes.
>
>> I suggest
>
> Here is the core problem.
>
> And I'm not meaning to take this out on you: there's been many, MANY people
> who've *suggested* things about edubuntu/ltsp/ubuntu/linux/Open Source in
> general.  What people never seem to get is the following:
>
> Edubuntu doesn't need more suggestions.
> Edubuntu needs more people sitting at more keyboards looking at more bug
> reports coding more patches that fix more problems.  That's the bit we're
> lacking.
>
>> completely revising Edubuntu and maybe even consider changing
>> the name. I thought about forking Ubuntu to Schoolbuntu but I'd rather
>> continue working under 'Edubuntu'. In case Canonical has other plans
>> with that name, though, I see nothing wrong with starting a separate
>> project forked from Ubuntu itself.
>
> Don't change the name
> Don't fork the project
> Don't revise edubuntu
>
> DO fix bugs
> DO write documentation
> DO write new pieces of software to fill in gaps
>
>> What we need is a dedicated bunch of a few people that are willing and
>> knowledgeable enough to help out to get things rolling. This would
>> require a great deal of spare time which I have but I assume others do not.
>
> 8 months or so ago we announced a bug day.  I *booked a day off work at my
> expense* with the understanding that people from the mailing list were going to
> show up and help me:
>
> 1) Identify the top bugs that were bothering us.
> 2) Test *exactly* what triggered the bug.
> 3) Help me to trace though the code to find the problem, and come up with a
>   solution
> 4) Test solutions.
>
> This idea of a bug day was implemented as a result of mailings on this list.
> Everyone saw it, everyone knew about it.
>
> Number of people who showed up for the 16+ hours I worked on bugs (Besides
> LaserJock): 0.
>
> About a month after bug day, work started getting heavy, and I admit I've kind
> of drifted away from Edubuntu.  I'd love to come back.  I'd love to get in
> there and work.  But it's supposed to be a *community*.  Not just me and a
> couple of other people slaving away, with the "users" at large going "meh, why
> don't things get fixed fast enough.... this sucks... etc."
>
> If people aren't going to get involved helping to fix their own problems, why
> should I?  I'm perfectly capable of solving my own problems all by my lonesome.
>
> Name a day and time, I'll show up for the IRC meeting.
>
> Cheers,
> Scott
>
> --
> Scott L. Balneaves | He that breaks a thing to find out what it is
> Systems Department | has left the path of wisdom.
> Legal Aid Manitoba |     -- J.R.R. Tolkien
>
> --
> edubuntu-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/edubuntu-devel
>



--
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https://launchpad.net/~effie-jayx
Ubuntu LoCo Council Member
Ubuntu Membership Board of the Americas Member
Vento Developer
https://launchpad.net/vento

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Re: Let's get serious about Edubuntu's future

Bugzilla from laserjock@ubuntu.com
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from sh@lutzhaase.com
On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Sven-Hendrik Haase <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 19.05.2009 22:51, Scott Balneaves wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 09:54:28PM +0200, Sven-Hendrik Haase wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I suggest
> we either have a live meeting on IRC at some point in the near future or
> just keep discussing in this thread what is going to happen to Edubuntu.

Thanks a ton for starting this thread. It's great to see people taking
any interest in the future of Edubuntu.

>
> I've been busy as heck for the last 6 months, and haven't had a lot of time
> to
> devote to Edubuntu.  However, if a meeting is planned, I'll show up.
>
> <snip>
>
>
> In #edubuntu we decided not to act to drastically until UDS is over. We hope
> that Canonical are going to give us an official statement to Edubuntu's
> future.
>
> 1) Direction. I think Edubuntu has been without actual vision for some
> time now.
>
>
> Well, IMHO, this is incorrect.  The problem we've got is that there's a HUGE
> AMOUNT of vision.  There's diddly-squat all people actually turning vision
> into
> code/bugfixes/docs. etc.
>
>
> I think this is part of the problem. I think Edubuntu should try to tackle
> one problem at a time, starting at the lowest problem difficulty: A
> workstation desktop with education applications which is pretty much what
> Edubuntu is right now and should be an easy first focus. Tackle harder stuff
> a little later on once one part has been polished.

I think https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument should be at
the center of this type of discussion. There are a number of important
questions that need to be answered here. A few I can think of off the
top of my head are:

 * What are the target audiences for Edubuntu?
 * What are the deliverables for Edubuntu?
 * What should be the areas of focus for Edubuntu?
 * What kind of community should Edubuntu be?

> As well, producing a bootable CD or DVD's a HUGE undertaking (just ask
> ogra).
> Someone's got to step forward and be willing to DO this.  It means code.  It
> means hours and hours of work.
>
>
> I've been building another distribution over the last couple of weeks and
> it's actually quite easy once you grasp the underlying concept. The tools
> are there already, so it's really not that much in need of coding, just a
> bit of scripting. Building the images themselves doesn't take too long
> either. So yeah, I'm stepping up and am willing to do this :).

Well, frankly it's quite non-trivial to build a distro that is up to
Ubuntu's standards. As of right now, Edubuntu is still supported by
Canonical and I think a lot of ground would be lost if all of the
infrastructure was abandoned now.
- Show quoted text -


> Here is the core problem.
>
> And I'm not meaning to take this out on you: there's been many, MANY people
> who've *suggested* things about edubuntu/ltsp/ubuntu/linux/Open Source in
> general.  What people never seem to get is the following:
>
> Edubuntu doesn't need more suggestions.
> Edubuntu needs more people sitting at more keyboards looking at more bug
> reports coding more patches that fix more problems.  That's the bit we're
> lacking.
>
>
>
> Well, would you have preferred me saying that I *decided*? That would mean
> starting up something on my own with no coordination or team which was not
> in my intention. I'm NOT the one who just talks and doesn't do but I
> understand that a project this size isn't something I'm going to do on an
> afternoon all by myself. I am happily the person to get his hands dirty
> first, though.
>
> completely revising Edubuntu and maybe even consider changing
> the name. I thought about forking Ubuntu to Schoolbuntu but I'd rather
> continue working under 'Edubuntu'. In case Canonical has other plans
> with that name, though, I see nothing wrong with starting a separate
> project forked from Ubuntu itself.
>
>
> Don't change the name
> Don't fork the project
> Don't revise edubuntu
>
> DO fix bugs
> DO write documentation
> DO write new pieces of software to fill in gaps
>
>
> This wouldn't seem too drastic. It would mean going the same direction,
> still, and that didn't work out too well in my opinion. Why not revise
> Edubuntu (or rather, revive)? Also, forking would allow me to *do* just as I
> see fit and Edubuntu could profit from it. Currently in Edubuntu, my hands
> are more or less bound to my back. I'm uncertain about the Canonical
> situation, I don't have any permissions for the website, I can't just throw
> out all the old documentation or people would get angry, I can't deviate
> from its current course.
> I'm not saying a fork is necessary, but it would allow me to gather some
> much needed technical experience about building and integrating a live
> distro on Ubuntu with LTSP.

It radically different direction is not necessarily needed. Edubuntu
still has quite a lot of infrastructure, but it doesn't have the hands
to turn the cranks. We have a wiki, website, automatic .iso building,
bug tracking, packages, etc. All that really needs to be done is to:

1) define what Edubuntu *should* be
2) get a strategy put together to accomplish the goals
3) get people willing to implement organized and moving

> If, however, you say I should go ahead and just work on Edubuntu where ever
> I see fit and make it what I want it to be, I will happily do that. But I
> want to be sure that the work I'm going to invest is not going to be
> discarded because what I did wasn't in the project's intentions.

I really think it would be unwise to completely take "Edubuntu" off
into a non-Ubuntu project. It would no longer be Edubuntu at that
point, would lose it's place as an Ubuntu project, lose any Canonical
support, and probably lose a lot of ground with the community. There's
no inherent reason to do so either. Edubuntu didn't "die" because of
being an Ubuntu project or bad infrastructure.

> Please do not take any offense in any of the stuff I say or said. I can see
> that you've been very involved with Edubuntu and that you've invested a
> great deal of time into it. But I can also see that you are not too happy
> about the way things are currently (declining/dead community, few people
> helping, lots of hot air, lack of Canonical support).
> So even then, why do you want to keep steering the current course? In the
> past, it might have worked due to Canonicals support, now I'm pretty sure
> that won't do any more. Let's concentrate on a few things. Get diagrams up.
> Get a wiki up. And I don't mean Edubuntu's wiki, I mean a new wiki just for
> refurbishing Edubuntu so it can get back up to speed.

We have a wiki that is free to use, we have a website, we have
Launchpad teams, etc. Let's not worry about recreating wheels here.
Let's focus on figuring out what needs to be done and getting people
energized to do it.

> Since you don't like talkers, I'll try to get to know the casper system a
> bit in the coming days and release a DVD containing a built LTSP image and a
> full Edubuntu environment and see how it turns out.

The Ubuntu DVD can do something quite close to this already. I think
it would be helpful though to back the discussion up a bit first. I
know it might be frustrating since you've obviously thought quite a
bit about this, but I think the first step is to define higher level
things (i.e. what Edubuntu should be, who it should target, and what
kind of deliverables it should have) first before jumping into DVD
creation.

-Jordan

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Re: Let's get serious about Edubuntu's future

Scott Balneaves
In reply to this post by David Van Assche
On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 07:16:32PM -0400, David Van Assche wrote:
> If this is real, then I'm up for helping. I wanna see the code first though
> :-) It was me that ripped out the edubuntu ltsp handbook stuff and did the
> ltsp upstream handbook creation, did most of the major rewriting along with
> Scott, as well as editing the edubuntu.org site and updating the set of apps
> available as the addons, fatclient for ltsp, and a fair set of other things.

Good to see you again David.

I'm reading through the manual again right now.

Gadi's done a lot of work on the xrandr side of things in LTSP, I'm going to
try to document it over the next week or two, and get it pushed up.

Scott

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Systems Department | but they will never replace kisses and punches.
Legal Aid Manitoba |     -- Ashleigh Brilliant

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Re: Let's get serious about Edubuntu's future

David Van Assche
Cool, maybe we should meet up on irc and have a ltsp/edu/buntu discussion concerning documentation, packaging, extra universe and multiverse packages  not officially supported by canonical both listed on the website and included in meta packages, triaging, and of course more. If we set the irc meeting and all these folks show up and can help with these elements, we know that its for real and we can start getting work done. Interestingly, I was just at Sugar Camp, where we did a workshop on the methodology of autopackaging or distribution, ie, getting the software onto the computer from the moment a upstream dev makes a commit. We've managed to automate the entire process by using oBS which is actually an opensource project. We use gitorious on the sugar side to get the activities in place. So what we've done is, the minute a new gitorious commit is made, a new revision to that package happens using some scripting, and a spec file is either created if not already there and then uploaded to be built in the oBS cloud. So we go automatically from git -> jhconvert (this creates various templates for various distros and architectures) and finally to -> rpms, srpms and .xo bundles for various architectures.

We could certainly try the same for ubuntu, depending on how ubuntu policy works with that. What I mean is, an open source based build service could make .debs just fine, and that might all be whats needed to get up to date with many of the activities.Funnily enough, the Sugar team has a similar dynamic to what edubuntu has turned out to be. We call the base window making elements and framework Glucose, and the activities that run within it Fructose. Those are the supported big ones who we really want to make sure work, the core activities are about 15-20 or so. The rest of the activities we call honey, and those will also be available in rpm bundles based on theme or whatever. So in edubuntu we have the edubuntu-extra packages, which should really be universe and multiverse packages... any way a decision should be made as to what to carry. I sent an email to laserjock some time ago describing the tools I thought were good edu tools and had tested all of these too, so I know they work. I shall paste that to the list, if movement is really starting to happen.

Anyway, first thing would be a irc meeting... when would be good for you guys? Laserjock or Scott should probably set it, and whoever still considers themselves part of the community and these new enthusiasts should attend.

Then we could start hacking at stuff. Sugar on edubuntu is a real concern at the moment. We are being held back due to debian policy. IE, debian is still working on packaging the 0.84, so they only have 0.82 packages, which are now ancient and pretty useless. This has made many users switch to things like Mandriva and openSUSE, who have their acts together in the edu market... lets see if we can't catch up.

A live dvd/stick is the obvious way to go. CD too, no reason it cant be on multiples... but I think it really requires thinking about edubuntu as a set of ubuntu+educational packages. From what I've seen, no one understands the addons only definition of edubuntu 6 months on.... I'm around, and can be convinced to move some of my work from opensuse-edu to edubuntu, if things really start happening again.

It has to be mentioned finally that much kudos must go to Jordan Mantha for working through these difficult times to even have an edubuntu to install... if it wasnt for him, edubuntu would be totally and officially dead...

so, irc meeting, when?

David (nubae) Van Assche


On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 9:20 PM, Scott Balneaves <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 07:16:32PM -0400, David Van Assche wrote:
> If this is real, then I'm up for helping. I wanna see the code first though
> :-) It was me that ripped out the edubuntu ltsp handbook stuff and did the
> ltsp upstream handbook creation, did most of the major rewriting along with
> Scott, as well as editing the edubuntu.org site and updating the set of apps
> available as the addons, fatclient for ltsp, and a fair set of other things.

Good to see you again David.

I'm reading through the manual again right now.

Gadi's done a lot of work on the xrandr side of things in LTSP, I'm going to
try to document it over the next week or two, and get it pushed up.

Scott

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Systems Department | but they will never replace kisses and punches.
Legal Aid Manitoba |     -- Ashleigh Brilliant

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Re: Let's get serious about Edubuntu's future

Jonathan Carter-10
Hi David

David Van Assche wrote:
> so, irc meeting, when?

I think as soon as possible (before the UDS) within a reasonable notice
period. How does Friday afternoon 18:00 UTC work for for most people? I
remember Jordan (LaserJock) saying that that time of the day is a bit
friendlier for him, so it might be a good time for people in the
American and European time zones.

-Jonathan

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Re: Let's get serious about Edubuntu's future

Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from sh@lutzhaase.com
Hi Sven

Sven-Hendrik Haase wrote:
> On 19.05.2009 22:51, Scott Balneaves wrote:
> In #edubuntu we decided not to act to drastically until UDS is over. We
> hope that Canonical are going to give us an official statement to
> Edubuntu's future.

We've been talking to Oliver (ogra) about this on IRC, he said that
Canonical is fine with whatever we plan and do, he said that it's
basically acknowledged that Edubuntu is a community project at the
moment. It wasn't exactly a formal statement, but it's go-ahead from a
Canonical employee who has always been involved with Edubuntu so can
accept that and move on. I meant to post about it to the list earlier,
I'll find the IRC logs and post it.

-Jonathan

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Re: Let's get serious about Edubuntu's future

David Groos
In reply to this post by David Van Assche
Hi All,

Over these last weeks I've been reading, and inside-my-head responding to these many posts on different lists about people's feelings about the condition and vision of Edubuntu.  I feel quite an outsider as I've just started to use Ubuntu/Edubuntu just this school year.  Regardless, as Jordan Mantha once said on an irc, one can be a developer of edubuntu w/out knowing a lick of code.  I know I have a useful perspective to bring to this project and this discussion but can't contribute code and at this point I don't think I can contribute docs--though do look to helping out with this at some point.

I've spent many hours each week this school year trying to make a LTSP/Edubuntu 8.0.4 work in my classroom.  I'm working in a 'real' situation w/challenges with limited/no on-site support.  I can't say that I'm on my own though--many of you have provided me with real help in the form of encouragement, suggestions/answers and code and more encouragement :-)  Thanks.

While I'm not a programmer, nor sys admin--I'm a 20 year middle and high school teacher--I learn quickly in the area of technology.  Speaking immodestly, I'm probably more tech capable than many of the teachers that the Edubuntu community would like to target as users of their wonderful products.  So, if I'm techie-teacher, how come it took so many months to get my classroom thin client LAN up and running...and limpingly at that?  For example, it takes me about an hour to start all 17 thin clients in my class because after the first 3 start, only 1 computer will pxe-boot every 4-5 minutes.  Yes, I've read all forum stuff on this seeming bug but haven't really set to solve it yet.  Why?  I still need to set up Squid and SquidGuard, first, and I'm too exhausted at this point of the year and will work on it this summer...

'Nuff whining...  I could delineate all the minor but important issues I've run into and currently have but that's not the point here.  My point is that for Edubuntu to rival/surpass Mac and Windows in the schools it needs to have a core, semi-flawless, set of apps that will get the system up and running for a teacher.  And I mean a teacher or tech person who doesn't have to understand "acl's and why that wierd-indentation and what does it mean and what do I have to do..."  Again, I could write volumns but neither of us have time (you can check the tip of the iceberg of this project at http://groosd.blogspot.com if you do have the time ;-)

My thoughts--and I'm concurring with things I've read in this discussion--this community needs to revisit it's vision, set some goals/mission and develop appropriate strategies.  It needs to be a living document and while the strategies page that Jordan M refrenced on the wiki is probably the public face of that document, the development of these ideas ought to be on something more versitle w/potential for simultaneous editing such as a google doc.  Here's a mock-up I threw together to show the idea--Each person would have his/her own line but could comment on other's lines in the comment column.

THANKS for your leadership,
yours in education,
David Groos

PS if you want teachers to be able to participate in the online meeting it would need to take place over the week end--quite a challenge in 24 hours worth of world time zones.

On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 10:47 PM, David Van Assche <[hidden email]> wrote:
Cool, maybe we should meet up on irc and have a ltsp/edu/buntu discussion concerning documentation, packaging, extra universe and multiverse packages  not officially supported by canonical both listed on the website and included in meta packages, triaging, and of course more. If we set the irc meeting and all these folks show up and can help with these elements, we know that its for real and we can start getting work done. Interestingly, I was just at Sugar Camp, where we did a workshop on the methodology of autopackaging or distribution, ie, getting the software onto the computer from the moment a upstream dev makes a commit. We've managed to automate the entire process by using oBS which is actually an opensource project. We use gitorious on the sugar side to get the activities in place. So what we've done is, the minute a new gitorious commit is made, a new revision to that package happens using some scripting, and a spec file is either created if not already there and then uploaded to be built in the oBS cloud. So we go automatically from git -> jhconvert (this creates various templates for various distros and architectures) and finally to -> rpms, srpms and .xo bundles for various architectures.

We could certainly try the same for ubuntu, depending on how ubuntu policy works with that. What I mean is, an open source based build service could make .debs just fine, and that might all be whats needed to get up to date with many of the activities.Funnily enough, the Sugar team has a similar dynamic to what edubuntu has turned out to be. We call the base window making elements and framework Glucose, and the activities that run within it Fructose. Those are the supported big ones who we really want to make sure work, the core activities are about 15-20 or so. The rest of the activities we call honey, and those will also be available in rpm bundles based on theme or whatever. So in edubuntu we have the edubuntu-extra packages, which should really be universe and multiverse packages... any way a decision should be made as to what to carry. I sent an email to laserjock some time ago describing the tools I thought were good edu tools and had tested all of these too, so I know they work. I shall paste that to the list, if movement is really starting to happen.

Anyway, first thing would be a irc meeting... when would be good for you guys? Laserjock or Scott should probably set it, and whoever still considers themselves part of the community and these new enthusiasts should attend.

Then we could start hacking at stuff. Sugar on edubuntu is a real concern at the moment. We are being held back due to debian policy. IE, debian is still working on packaging the 0.84, so they only have 0.82 packages, which are now ancient and pretty useless. This has made many users switch to things like Mandriva and openSUSE, who have their acts together in the edu market... lets see if we can't catch up.

A live dvd/stick is the obvious way to go. CD too, no reason it cant be on multiples... but I think it really requires thinking about edubuntu as a set of ubuntu+educational packages. From what I've seen, no one understands the addons only definition of edubuntu 6 months on.... I'm around, and can be convinced to move some of my work from opensuse-edu to edubuntu, if things really start happening again.

It has to be mentioned finally that much kudos must go to Jordan Mantha for working through these difficult times to even have an edubuntu to install... if it wasnt for him, edubuntu would be totally and officially dead...

so, irc meeting, when?

David (nubae) Van Assche



On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 9:20 PM, Scott Balneaves <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 07:16:32PM -0400, David Van Assche wrote:
> If this is real, then I'm up for helping. I wanna see the code first though
> :-) It was me that ripped out the edubuntu ltsp handbook stuff and did the
> ltsp upstream handbook creation, did most of the major rewriting along with
> Scott, as well as editing the edubuntu.org site and updating the set of apps
> available as the addons, fatclient for ltsp, and a fair set of other things.

Good to see you again David.

I'm reading through the manual again right now.

Gadi's done a lot of work on the xrandr side of things in LTSP, I'm going to
try to document it over the next week or two, and get it pushed up.

Scott

--
Scott L. Balneaves | Words are a wonderful form of communication,
Systems Department | but they will never replace kisses and punches.
Legal Aid Manitoba |     -- Ashleigh Brilliant

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Re: Let's get serious about Edubuntu's future

Bugzilla from sh@lutzhaase.com
In reply to this post by Jonathan Carter-10
On 20.05.2009 06:54, Jonathan Carter wrote:
Hi David

David Van Assche wrote:
  
so, irc meeting, when?
    

I think as soon as possible (before the UDS) within a reasonable notice
period. How does Friday afternoon 18:00 UTC work for for most people? I
remember Jordan (LaserJock) saying that that time of the day is a bit
friendlier for him, so it might be a good time for people in the
American and European time zones.

-Jonathan

  
I can agree to that, I'm currently UTC + 2 so that would be a fine time.

-- Sven-Hendrik
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