Lets Drop Old Monitors

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Lets Drop Old Monitors

Bill Vance

Howdy;

Do excuse me for mooching, (part of), a Subject: line.  :-)

In a sense, this is about a similar sort of problem, but coming
at it from a different direction.  My hope here, is to provide
some ideas for improving on what so far, is _very_ frustrating.

A while back when my trusty old Optiquest Q-71 monitor died, and
I replaced it with a brand new HD monitor, I expected it to solve
a host of problems.  Unfortunately, a bunch of really nasty
problems showed up, mostly dealling with text, and symbol sizes.
I am constantly running up against this problem.  Obviously,
there's only going to be more, and more HD monitors out there
as time goes on, so.......

Therefore, as a way of solving the agravation involved, and
fixing the source, I would like to suggest the following to
those involved in programming the OS.

1.  A plugin module which any programmer can include in their
     software, to make the change from old style to HD, a better
     controlled, nicer, easier, experience.  The less they have
     to do to make it work, the better.  If item 2, (below), is
     done adequately, this could be a simple Kernel option.

2.  It should be something as simple as a possible Ctrl/Alt key
     combination at the start of any text sequence or symbol item
     so the system knows it may need re-sizing, and act accordingly.

3.  A list of which bit of text, or symbol should have which size
     should be in something like /etc/prog-name/sizes.

4.  The install disk should be capable of determining which
     sort of monitor the system has, and include it or not.
     It should be capable of being added if an old monitor,
     (like mine), dies, and gets replaced.

5.  Changing the size of text, or symbol, should be as easy
     as putting the mouse pointer on it, and activating the
     appropriate up/down menu item of the left+right button
     clipboard style options.

These are just a few ideas, and there are no doubt others out
there, too.  Don't be "bash"full, now :-) if you've a few of
your own send 'em in.  Things won't improve without input. :-)

Bill

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Re: Lets Drop Old Monitors

David Lang
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018, Bill Vance wrote:

> 1.  A plugin module which any programmer can include in their
>     software, to make the change from old style to HD, a better
>     controlled, nicer, easier, experience.  The less they have
>     to do to make it work, the better.  If item 2, (below), is
>     done adequately, this could be a simple Kernel option.

exactly what changes do you think this flag should make in the application?

No application should care what the actual screen resolution is, if you make
them optimize for 1080P HD, then they will be horrible on a 4k or 8k screen (or
a small screen for that matter)

you also don't know if your 4K screen is a 24" screen or a 40" screen, and even
if you do know it's a 40" screen, you don't know if the user is 2' from the
screen or 10' from the screen.

the user needs to set the size of things, not the app.

David Lang

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Re: Lets Drop Old Monitors

Bill Vance


On Thu, 12 Jul 2018, David Lang wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Jul 2018, Bill Vance wrote:
>
>> 1.  A plugin module which any programmer can include in their
>>     software, to make the change from old style to HD, a better
>>     controlled, nicer, easier, experience.  The less they have
>>     to do to make it work, the better.  If item 2, (below), is
>>     done adequately, this could be a simple Kernel option.
>
> exactly what changes do you think this flag should make in the application?
>
> No application should care what the actual screen resolution is, if you make
> them optimize for 1080P HD, then they will be horrible on a 4k or 8k screen
> (or
> a small screen for that matter)
>
> you also don't know if your 4K screen is a 24" screen or a 40" screen, and
> even
> if you do know it's a 40" screen, you don't know if the user is 2' from the
> screen or 10' from the screen.
>
> the user needs to set the size of things, not the app.

Exactly what I'm saying.  Unfortunately, the only option the
user has right now, is more vs. a _lot_ more frustration.
The apps need a way for the user to make the adjustments, and
right now it just isn't there.  Screen size is a system
settings thing, but even that needs help.  On a fresh install
I need a _BIG_ magnifying glass to read the tiny, microscopic
text there.  It works eventually, but it's still a major
pain in the ass.  The fact that every last app needs adjusting,
and the adjustments are imperfect from one to another doesn't
help any.  When the menu text looks right in one app, but looks
like it's too big to even be the banner across the top of the
next app, the appearance sucks.  As the old hardware dies off/
wears out, and gets replaced by the new, this is just going to
be more of a problem, and should be addressed now.

That's why I'm saying the old/HD settings choice should be a
Kernel thing, with the various text/symbol sizes individually
controllable through the mouse pointer/buttons.

Bill

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Re: Lets Drop Old Monitors

David Lang
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018, Bill Vance wrote:

>
> Exactly what I'm saying.  Unfortunately, the only option the
> user has right now, is more vs. a _lot_ more frustration.
> The apps need a way for the user to make the adjustments, and
> right now it just isn't there.  Screen size is a system
> settings thing, but even that needs help.  On a fresh install
> I need a _BIG_ magnifying glass to read the tiny, microscopic
> text there.  It works eventually, but it's still a major
> pain in the ass.  The fact that every last app needs adjusting,
> and the adjustments are imperfect from one to another doesn't
> help any.

with kubuntu go to systems settings and then the font settings, there is a dpi
setting there, tweak that until you have adjusted the size to what you want.

If apps are hard-coding sizes, then your new proposed way to change sizes won't
work.

Instead of asking for something new, encourage app developers to use an existing
standard.

David Lang

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Re: Lets Drop Old Monitors

Billie Walsh
In reply to this post by Bill Vance
On 07/12/2018 11:01 AM, Bill Vance wrote:

>
> Howdy;
>
> Do excuse me for mooching, (part of), a Subject: line.  :-)
>
> In a sense, this is about a similar sort of problem, but coming
> at it from a different direction.  My hope here, is to provide
> some ideas for improving on what so far, is _very_ frustrating.
>
> A while back when my trusty old Optiquest Q-71 monitor died, and
> I replaced it with a brand new HD monitor, I expected it to solve
> a host of problems.  Unfortunately, a bunch of really nasty
> problems showed up, mostly dealling with text, and symbol sizes.
> I am constantly running up against this problem.  Obviously,
> there's only going to be more, and more HD monitors out there
> as time goes on, so.......
>
> Therefore, as a way of solving the agravation involved, and
> fixing the source, I would like to suggest the following to
> those involved in programming the OS.
>
> 1.  A plugin module which any programmer can include in their
>     software, to make the change from old style to HD, a better
>     controlled, nicer, easier, experience.  The less they have
>     to do to make it work, the better.  If item 2, (below), is
>     done adequately, this could be a simple Kernel option.
>
> 2.  It should be something as simple as a possible Ctrl/Alt key
>     combination at the start of any text sequence or symbol item
>     so the system knows it may need re-sizing, and act accordingly.
>
> 3.  A list of which bit of text, or symbol should have which size
>     should be in something like /etc/prog-name/sizes.
>
> 4.  The install disk should be capable of determining which
>     sort of monitor the system has, and include it or not.
>     It should be capable of being added if an old monitor,
>     (like mine), dies, and gets replaced.
>
> 5.  Changing the size of text, or symbol, should be as easy
>     as putting the mouse pointer on it, and activating the
>     appropriate up/down menu item of the left+right button
>     clipboard style options.
>
> These are just a few ideas, and there are no doubt others out
> there, too.  Don't be "bash"full, now :-) if you've a few of
> your own send 'em in.  Things won't improve without input. :-)
>
> Bill

How about <Control>+<+>
or
<control>+<->


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Re: Lets Drop Old Monitors

Bill Vance


On Fri, 13 Jul 2018, Billie Walsh wrote:

> On 07/12/2018 11:01 AM, Bill Vance wrote:
>>
>> Howdy;
>>
>> Do excuse me for mooching, (part of), a Subject: line.  :-)
>>
>> In a sense, this is about a similar sort of problem, but coming
>> at it from a different direction.  My hope here, is to provide
>> some ideas for improving on what so far, is _very_ frustrating.
>>
>> A while back when my trusty old Optiquest Q-71 monitor died, and
>> I replaced it with a brand new HD monitor, I expected it to solve
>> a host of problems.  Unfortunately, a bunch of really nasty
>> problems showed up, mostly dealling with text, and symbol sizes.
>> I am constantly running up against this problem.  Obviously,
>> there's only going to be more, and more HD monitors out there
>> as time goes on, so.......
>>
>> Therefore, as a way of solving the agravation involved, and
>> fixing the source, I would like to suggest the following to
>> those involved in programming the OS.
>>
>> 1.  A plugin module which any programmer can include in their
>>     software, to make the change from old style to HD, a better
>>     controlled, nicer, easier, experience.  The less they have
>>     to do to make it work, the better.  If item 2, (below), is
>>     done adequately, this could be a simple Kernel option.
>>
>> 2.  It should be something as simple as a possible Ctrl/Alt key
>>     combination at the start of any text sequence or symbol item
>>     so the system knows it may need re-sizing, and act accordingly.
>>
>> 3.  A list of which bit of text, or symbol should have which size
>>     should be in something like /etc/prog-name/sizes.
>>
>> 4.  The install disk should be capable of determining which
>>     sort of monitor the system has, and include it or not.
>>     It should be capable of being added if an old monitor,
>>     (like mine), dies, and gets replaced.
>>
>> 5.  Changing the size of text, or symbol, should be as easy
>>     as putting the mouse pointer on it, and activating the
>>     appropriate up/down menu item of the left+right button
>>     clipboard style options.
>>
>> These are just a few ideas, and there are no doubt others out
>> there, too.  Don't be "bash"full, now :-) if you've a few of
>> your own send 'em in.  Things won't improve without input. :-)
>>
>> Bill
>
> How about <Control>+<+>
> or
> <control>+<->
Is that a Control+/Control-, I.e., Ctrl and plus/minus key, or
is it a Ctrl key, and a plus/minus key followed by another
plus/minus key, (double strike), or what?  Changing screen
resolution used to be as simple as Ctrl plus or minus, but I
believe that went away with 14.04.  It should do fine for
switching between old, and HD modes now though.

Bill
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Re: Lets Drop Old Monitors

Bill Vance
In reply to this post by David Lang


On Fri, 13 Jul 2018, David Lang wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Jul 2018, Bill Vance wrote:
>
>> Exactly what I'm saying.  Unfortunately, the only option the
>> user has right now, is more vs. a _lot_ more frustration.
>> The apps need a way for the user to make the adjustments, and
>> right now it just isn't there.  Screen size is a system
>> settings thing, but even that needs help.  On a fresh install
>> I need a _BIG_ magnifying glass to read the tiny, microscopic
>> text there.  It works eventually, but it's still a major
>> pain in the ass.  The fact that every last app needs adjusting,
>> and the adjustments are imperfect from one to another doesn't
>> help any.
>
> with kubuntu go to systems settings and then the font settings, there is a
> dpi
> setting there, tweak that until you have adjusted the size to what you want.


When the menu text looks right in one app, but looks like it's
too big to even be the banner across the top of the next app, the
appearance sucks.  That's just the menuing.  Tool bars, symbols,
data, and so on need the same help between one app and the next.


> If apps are hard-coding sizes, then your new proposed way to change sizes
> won't  work.

They will if they want to keep up with the latest greatest.

> Instead of asking for something new, encourage app developers to use an
> existing standard.

The point you're missing here, is that there is no current
working standard, and that a new standard is needed.

By the by, your flame war tactic of deleting my points, and
then continuing on, pretending they were never made, is not
appreciated.

Bill

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Re: Lets Drop Old Monitors

Billie Walsh
In reply to this post by Bill Vance
On 07/15/2018 11:18 AM, Bill Vance wrote:
>
> Is that a Control+/Control-, I.e., Ctrl and plus/minus key, or
> is it a Ctrl key, and a plus/minus key followed by another
> plus/minus key, (double strike), or what?  Changing screen
> resolution used to be as simple as Ctrl plus or minus, but I
> believe that went away with 14.04.  It should do fine for
> switching between old, and HD modes now though.
>
> Bill

The old Control+ and Control - still work just fine in 18.04. At least
in Thunderbird and Firefox.


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Re: Lets Drop Old Monitors

Bill Vance


On Sun, 15 Jul 2018, Billie Walsh wrote:

> On 07/15/2018 11:18 AM, Bill Vance wrote:
>>
>> Is that a Control+/Control-, I.e., Ctrl and plus/minus key, or
>> is it a Ctrl key, and a plus/minus key followed by another
>> plus/minus key, (double strike), or what?  Changing screen
>> resolution used to be as simple as Ctrl plus or minus, but I
>> believe that went away with 14.04.  It should do fine for
>> switching between old, and HD modes now though.
>>
>> Bill
>
> The old Control+ and Control - still work just fine in 18.04. At least
> in Thunderbird and Firefox.
True enough, though I was refering to the OS/desktop as a whole.
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Re: Lets Drop Old Monitors

Billie Walsh
On 07/15/2018 04:54 PM, Bill Vance wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, 15 Jul 2018, Billie Walsh wrote:
>
>> On 07/15/2018 11:18 AM, Bill Vance wrote:
>>>
>>> Is that a Control+/Control-, I.e., Ctrl and plus/minus key, or
>>> is it a Ctrl key, and a plus/minus key followed by another
>>> plus/minus key, (double strike), or what?  Changing screen
>>> resolution used to be as simple as Ctrl plus or minus, but I
>>> believe that went away with 14.04.  It should do fine for
>>> switching between old, and HD modes now though.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>
>> The old Control+ and Control - still work just fine in 18.04. At
>> least in Thunderbird and Firefox.
>
> True enough, though I was refering to the OS/desktop as a whole.

OK. My bad. I had never tried it anywhere else. I just tried it in
another application and it didn't work.


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Re: Lets Drop Old Monitors

Doug McGarrett

On 07/15/2018 06:27 PM, Billie Walsh wrote:

_skip_

I'm coming late to this thread. Is anyone suggesting that a normal video
card will not work with a modern Linux, to connect to a
"normal"—1920x1080—video display? Or that such a display

will not work with a modern Linux?  I have an NVIDIO card from at least
5 years ago, and I update my PCLinuxOS every Sunday, and I have no
trouble with video either on a 24" Viewsonic or

a 27" AOC monitor. And I have no intention of ever throwing them out in
favor of something I never even heard of. What is this all about?

--doug
>
>


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Re: Lets Drop Old Monitors

Bruce Marshall
The problem is with the newer video monitors and laptops.  A year ago, I bought a Lenovo laptop with a UHD monitor.  ( 3840x2160 or thereabouts).  Darn near impossible to install Linux and even after a LOT of tweaking, the fonts and viewing isn’t ideal.

I keep a magnifying glass handy whenever I am using it.




From: Doug <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Lets Drop Old Monitors
Date: 7/15/18 7:57 PM
To: Kubuntu user technical support <[hidden email]>



On 07/15/2018 06:27 PM, Billie Walsh wrote:

_skip_

I'm coming late to this thread. Is anyone suggesting that a normal video
card will not work with a modern Linux, to connect to a
"normal"—1920x1080—video display? Or that such a display

will not work with a modern Linux? I have an NVIDIO card from at least
5 years ago, and I update my PCLinuxOS every Sunday, and I have no
trouble with video either on a 24" Viewsonic or

a 27" AOC monitor. And I have no intention of ever throwing them out in
favor of something I never even heard of. What is this all about?

--doug
>
>


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Re: Lets Drop Old Monitors

David Lang
On Sun, 15 Jul 2018, Bmarsh wrote:

> The problem is with the newer video monitors and laptops.  A year ago, I bought a Lenovo laptop with a UHD monitor.  ( 3840x2160 or thereabouts).  Darn near impossible to install Linux and even after a LOT of tweaking, the fonts and viewing isn’t ideal.
>
> I keep a magnifying glass handy whenever I am using it.

have you tried changing the DPI setting?
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Re: Lets Drop Old Monitors

Bill Vance
In reply to this post by Billie Walsh


On Sun, 15 Jul 2018, Billie Walsh wrote:

> On 07/15/2018 04:54 PM, Bill Vance wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 15 Jul 2018, Billie Walsh wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/15/2018 11:18 AM, Bill Vance wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Is that a Control+/Control-, I.e., Ctrl and plus/minus key, or
>>>> is it a Ctrl key, and a plus/minus key followed by another
>>>> plus/minus key, (double strike), or what?  Changing screen
>>>> resolution used to be as simple as Ctrl plus or minus, but I
>>>> believe that went away with 14.04.  It should do fine for
>>>> switching between old, and HD modes now though.
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>
>>> The old Control+ and Control - still work just fine in 18.04. At
>>> least in Thunderbird and Firefox.
>>
>> True enough, though I was refering to the OS/desktop as a whole.
>
> OK. My bad. I had never tried it anywhere else. I just tried it in
> another application and it didn't work.
It still works in pdf readers, too.
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Re: Lets Drop Old Monitors

Bill Vance
In reply to this post by Doug McGarrett


On Sun, 15 Jul 2018, Doug wrote:

> On 07/15/2018 06:27 PM, Billie Walsh wrote:
>
> _skip_
>
> I'm coming late to this thread. Is anyone suggesting that a normal video
> card will not work with a modern Linux, to connect to a
> "normal"—1920x1080—video display? Or that such a display
>
> will not work with a modern Linux?  I have an NVIDIO card from at least
> 5 years ago, and I update my PCLinuxOS every Sunday, and I have no
> trouble with video either on a 24" Viewsonic or
>
> a 27" AOC monitor. And I have no intention of ever throwing them out in
> favor of something I never even heard of. What is this all about?
>
> --doug

It's not about the card, but the display device, (the monitor),
itself, and the lack of decent font/symbol size control for newer
High Def monitors.  On a new/fresh OS install the fonts are so
small that you need an electron microscpe just to see that something
is actually there.  Trying to read whats on the system settings
page is a real pain.
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Re: Lets Drop Old Monitors

Bill Vance
In reply to this post by David Lang


On Sun, 15 Jul 2018, David Lang wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Jul 2018, Bmarsh wrote:
>
>> The problem is with the newer video monitors and laptops.  A year ago, I
>> bought a Lenovo laptop with a UHD monitor.  ( 3840x2160 or thereabouts).
>> Darn near impossible to install Linux and even after a LOT of tweaking, the
>> fonts and viewing isn’t ideal.
>>
>> I keep a magnifying glass handy whenever I am using it.
>
> have you tried changing the DPI setting?
That is one of two methods of changing font sizes in system
settings.  Neither of them is anywhere close to working
perfectly.
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Re: Lets Drop Old Monitors

David Lang
On Mon, 16 Jul 2018, Bill Vance wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Jul 2018, David Lang wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 15 Jul 2018, Bmarsh wrote:
>>
>>> The problem is with the newer video monitors and laptops.  A year ago, I
>>> bought a Lenovo laptop with a UHD monitor.  ( 3840x2160 or thereabouts).
>>> Darn near impossible to install Linux and even after a LOT of tweaking,
>>> the fonts and viewing isn’t ideal.
>>>
>>> I keep a magnifying glass handy whenever I am using it.
>>
>> have you tried changing the DPI setting?
>
> That is one of two methods of changing font sizes in system
> settings.  Neither of them is anywhere close to working
> perfectly.
the DPI setting changes not just the font size, but also the graphics sizes, at
least for all apps that pay attention to this.

There really isn't a good way to override what the app does if it's not well
behaved.

remember you need to logout after changing the DPI for it to work.

I recently replaced by 1080 HD monitor with a 4K monitor the same size, and I've
had a laptop with a 4k screen, so I've had to deal with this and with kubuntu,
the DPI setting fixed pretty much everything.

David Lang
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Re: Lets Drop Old Monitors

Doug McGarrett

On 07/16/2018 03:40 PM, David Lang wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jul 2018, Bill Vance wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jul 2018, David Lang wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jul 2018, Bmarsh wrote:

The problem is with the newer video monitors and laptops.  A year ago, I bought a Lenovo laptop with a UHD monitor.  ( 3840x2160 or thereabouts). Darn near impossible to install Linux and even after a LOT of tweaking, the fonts and viewing isn’t ideal.

I keep a magnifying glass handy whenever I am using it.

have you tried changing the DPI setting?

That is one of two methods of changing font sizes in system
settings.  Neither of them is anywhere close to working
perfectly.

the DPI setting changes not just the font size, but also the graphics sizes, at least for all apps that pay attention to this.

There really isn't a good way to override what the app does if it's not well behaved.

remember you need to logout after changing the DPI for it to work.

I recently replaced by 1080 HD monitor with a 4K monitor the same size, and I've had a laptop with a 4k screen, so I've had to deal with this and with kubuntu, the DPI setting fixed pretty much everything.

David Lang


I've been looking at this thread for a while, and it looks to me that the title is wrong: it's the old monitors that provide proper sized fonts. I just bought a 27" AOC monitor, and I have an older NVIDIA
card in the machine, and everything works perfectly. Why would anyone want to phase out the old monitors? The new one I just bought looks fine. (And the old one, a ViewSonic, also worked fine.)
--doug


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Re: Lets Drop Old Monitors

Bill Vance


On Mon, 16 Jul 2018, Doug wrote:

> On 07/16/2018 03:40 PM, David Lang wrote:
>       On Mon, 16 Jul 2018, Bill Vance wrote:
>
>             On Sun, 15 Jul 2018, David Lang wrote:
>
>                   On Sun, 15 Jul 2018, Bmarsh wrote:
>
>                         The problem is with the newer
>                         video monitors and laptops.  A
>                         year ago, I bought a Lenovo
>                         laptop with a UHD monitor.  (
>                         3840x2160 or thereabouts). Darn
>                         near impossible to install Linux
>                         and even after a LOT of
>                         tweaking, the fonts and viewing
>                         isn’t ideal.
>
>                         I keep a magnifying glass handy
>                         whenever I am using it.
>
>
>                   have you tried changing the DPI setting?
>
>
>             That is one of two methods of changing font sizes in
>             system
>             settings.  Neither of them is anywhere close to working
>             perfectly.
>
>
>       the DPI setting changes not just the font size, but also the
>       graphics sizes, at least for all apps that pay attention to this.
Which, unfortunately, is no guarentee that they'll do a good job
of it, which is one of the main reasons I'm lobbying for making
individual adjustments to text, and symbol sizes.

>       There really isn't a good way to override what the app does if it's
>       not well behaved.

Which is no excuse whatsoever for not being able to do anything
about it.

>       remember you need to logout after changing the DPI for it to work.
>
>       I recently replaced by 1080 HD monitor with a 4K monitor the same
>       size, and I've had a laptop with a 4k screen, so I've had to deal
>       with this and with kubuntu, the DPI setting fixed pretty much
>       everything.
>
>       David Lang

I should be so freaking lucky.

>
> I've been looking at this thread for a while, and it looks to me that the title
> is wrong: it's the old monitors that provide proper sized fonts. I just bought a
> 27" AOC monitor, and I have an older NVIDIA
> card in the machine, and everything works perfectly. Why would anyone want to
> phase out the old monitors? The new one I just bought looks fine. (And the old
> one, a ViewSonic, also worked fine.)
> --doug

I didn't, "phase out", my old monitor, I used it till it died.
Then I got a new HD monitor, and what was starting to be a
problem on the old one, became infinitely worse.  I think
you'll find most people will use their stuff till it wears
out, dies, or otherwise becomes incapable of doing the desired
work.

Bill
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Re: Lets Drop Old Monitors

Bruce Marshall





From: Bill Vance <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: Lets Drop Old Monitors
Date: 7/17/18 10:42 AM
To: Kubuntu user technical support <[hidden email]>

<snip>



On Mon, 16 Jul 2018, Doug wrote:


>
> have you tried changing the DPI setting?
>
>
> That is one of two methods of changing font sizes in
> system
> settings.  Neither of them is anywhere close to working
> perfectly.
>
>
> the DPI setting changes not just the font size, but also the
> graphics sizes, at least for all apps that pay attention to this.

Which, unfortunately, is no guarentee that they'll do a good job
of it, which is one of the main reasons I'm lobbying for making
individual adjustments to text, and symbol sizes. 

I don’t much care for the idea of individual adjustments.  I really don’t want to have to go thru what could be 100 or more ‘adjustments’ every time I switch to a new release or download a new app.  Just one would do...  and I hate to say this but Windows handles different monitors quite well.
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