MUA rethreading (was: Re: Meltdown – Spectre - Was: kernel 4.4.0-108 / 16.04 LTS does not boot anymore

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MUA rethreading (was: Re: Meltdown – Spectre - Was: kernel 4.4.0-108 / 16.04 LTS does not boot anymore

Peter Flynn
On 13/01/18 11:17, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
[...]
> Actually I'm the OP of this thread ;). You messed up this thread,
> with the original thread, but note, this thread was not in reply to
> the original thread, it's a new opened thread. You could notice the
> difference, if you let your MUA sort by thread.

I've been banging on about this for a couple of decades. It's entirely
possible that the poster referred to *is* using an MUA that sorts by
thread — the problem is that some replies are not in the thread.

 From observation, there seem to be two reasons for this:

1. There are users who don't know how to Reply, and instead use Forward
    or even Compose an entirely new message, and then copy and paste the
    Subject.

2. There are MUAs which don't preserve the headers necessary for the
    propagation of the thread, so replies are sent without the References
    or In-Reply-To headers. This breaks the thread, even though it
    preserves the Subject.

I have tried to argue to the authors of MUAs that they could perform a
service to the human race by adding a Rethread feature. This would allow
the user to click on a message line of a wrongly-threaded message or
collapsed group of messages in the summary pane (assuming a traditional
interface with a summary pane and a text pane below it or beside it),
and drag and drop the message[s] onto the thread where it/they belong[s].

The feature would then rewrite the headers necessary for the message[s]
to remain in place for the future. There appears to be a plugin for
Tbird which includes something akin to this, but mixed in with a huge
amount of other features, and reported to be buggy. I have also
petitioned Hiri (new MUA for Exchange) to look at doing this.

For people who rely on threading to manage email, this feature would
remediate the two problems above. In an ideal world, of course, we would
educate the users who don't know how to use email, and get rid of the
fauty software, but in the absence of a magick wand, a Rethread feature
would be a major help.

///Peter

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Re: MUA rethreading (was: Re: Meltdown – Spectre - Was: kernel 4.4.0-108 / 16.04 LTS does not boot anymore

Ralf Mardorf-2
On Sat, 13 Jan 2018 20:26:06 +0000, Peter Flynn wrote:

>On 13/01/18 11:17, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>[...]
>> Actually I'm the OP of this thread ;). You messed up this thread,
>> with the original thread, but note, this thread was not in reply to
>> the original thread, it's a new opened thread. You could notice the
>> difference, if you let your MUA sort by thread.  
>
>I've been banging on about this for a couple of decades. It's entirely
>possible that the poster referred to *is* using an MUA that sorts by
>thread — the problem is that some replies are not in the thread.
>
> From observation, there seem to be two reasons for this:
>
>1. There are users who don't know how to Reply, and instead use Forward
>    or even Compose an entirely new message, and then copy and paste
> the Subject.
>
>2. There are MUAs which don't preserve the headers necessary for the
>    propagation of the thread, so replies are sent without the
> References or In-Reply-To headers. This breaks the thread, even
> though it preserves the Subject.
>
>I have tried to argue to the authors of MUAs that they could perform a
>service to the human race by adding a Rethread feature. This would
>allow the user to click on a message line of a wrongly-threaded
>message or collapsed group of messages in the summary pane (assuming a
>traditional interface with a summary pane and a text pane below it or
>beside it), and drag and drop the message[s] onto the thread where
>it/they belong[s].
>
>The feature would then rewrite the headers necessary for the
>message[s] to remain in place for the future. There appears to be a
>plugin for Tbird which includes something akin to this, but mixed in
>with a huge amount of other features, and reported to be buggy. I have
>also petitioned Hiri (new MUA for Exchange) to look at doing this.
>
>For people who rely on threading to manage email, this feature would
>remediate the two problems above. In an ideal world, of course, we
>would educate the users who don't know how to use email, and get rid
>of the fauty software, but in the absence of a magick wand, a Rethread
>feature would be a major help.
>
>///Peter

Actually I'm not sorting by thread, but since I changed the subject
(and for good reasons started a new thread, too), I hoped replies to
each thread as well as each subject would be separated from each other.
Fortunately it wasn't hard to sort, since I anyway read mails in reply
to both threads/subjects.

However, in some cases this could become a serious issue.


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Re: MUA rethreading (was: Re: Meltdown – Spectre - Was: kernel 4.4.0-108 / 16.04 LTS does not boot anymore

Ralf Mardorf-2
On Sat, 13 Jan 2018 21:37:57 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>Actually I'm not sorting by thread

This should read, that I don't sort by thread by default, but sometimes
it's helpful to temporarily sort by thread. Toggling between sorting by
thread and not sorting by thread is done by a simple/reasonable
shortcut, by default it's the same on all MUAs I'm using.


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Re: MUA rethreading (was: Re: Meltdown – Spectre - Was: kernel 4.4.0-108 / 16.04 LTS does not boot anymore

Colin Watson
In reply to this post by Peter Flynn
On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 08:26:06PM +0000, Peter Flynn wrote:
> I have tried to argue to the authors of MUAs that they could perform a
> service to the human race by adding a Rethread feature. This would allow the
> user to click on a message line of a wrongly-threaded message or collapsed
> group of messages in the summary pane (assuming a traditional interface with
> a summary pane and a text pane below it or beside it), and drag and drop the
> message[s] onto the thread where it/they belong[s].

Mutt has such a feature: it's called "link-threads", and bound to the
"&" key by default.  You tag the wrongly-threaded child message with
"t", move to its correct parent message, press "&", and you're done.
Replies to the tagged child message will be rethreaded as you'd expect,
unless they themselves have incorrect In-Reply-To (etc.) headers in
which case you can repeat the procedure.

(Of course, no doubt many more people use graphical MUAs.)

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Re: MUA rethreading (was: Re: Meltdown – Spectre - Was: kernel 4.4.0-108 / 16.04 LTS does not boot anymore

robert rottermann
In reply to this post by Peter Flynn
there is an other possible cause

some people are not yet fully awake early in the morning when they crank
up the computer and stumble across the keyboard to answer their first mails.
So a partial blindness is is sometimes hard to avoid ..

robert (having started with a coffee this time)

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Re: MUA rethreading

Peter Flynn
In reply to this post by Colin Watson
On 14/01/18 01:38, Colin Watson wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 08:26:06PM +0000, Peter Flynn wrote:
>> I have tried to argue to the authors of MUAs that they could perform a
>> service to the human race by adding a Rethread feature. This would allow the
>> user to click on a message line of a wrongly-threaded message or collapsed
>> group of messages in the summary pane (assuming a traditional interface with
>> a summary pane and a text pane below it or beside it), and drag and drop the
>> message[s] onto the thread where it/they belong[s].
>
> Mutt has such a feature: it's called "link-threads", and bound to the
> "&" key by default.

Wow :-) I haven't used mutt for years (I was an elm devotee).

> You tag the wrongly-threaded child message with
> "t", move to its correct parent message, press "&", and you're done.

Does that actually munge the headers so that the change is permanent?

> Replies to the tagged child message will be rethreaded as you'd expect,
> unless they themselves have incorrect In-Reply-To (etc.) headers in
> which case you can repeat the procedure.

Good point...given some of my users/correspondents that's entirely
likely. Of course, a really smart MUA would cache what it had done so
that it could repeat it automatically for fresh incoming messages :-)

The problem is then that most of my email is either in Exchange or in my
ISP's IMAP-accessible mailboxes (I don't actually know what their
backend is). That means that if I download a lab of mail and fix it, I
then have to find a way to put it back.

Hmm. I know Tbird lets you move messages between systems. I shall
experiment.


On 14/01/18 07:05, robert wrote:
> there is an other possible cause
>
> some people are not yet fully awake early in the morning when they
> crank up the computer and stumble across the keyboard to answer their
> first mails.
That also is true. I follow Tom Limoncelli's advice and don't look at
email until I have done something more interesting and important :-)

///Peter

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Re: MUA rethreading

Ralf Mardorf-2
On BSD, Linux and similar related mailing lists it's possible to
educate the users and to stand accidents, such as a not strong enough
coffee in the morning. Hey, US-American folks, to make a coffee you
need to put the milled coffee beans into the water, it's not enough
just to show the water the milled coffee beans. What you call coffee in
the USA, we call water in the rest of the world. However, outside of
BSD, Linux and similar related mailing lists "sind Hopfen und Malz
verloren" (there seems to be no nice idiome in English, so here's the
translation https://www.dict.cc/?s=hopfen+und+malz+verlohren ).


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Re: MUA rethreading

Colin Watson
In reply to this post by Peter Flynn
On Sun, Jan 14, 2018 at 04:40:39PM +0000, Peter Flynn wrote:
> On 14/01/18 01:38, Colin Watson wrote:
> > You tag the wrongly-threaded child message with "t", move to its
> > correct parent message, press "&", and you're done.
>
> Does that actually munge the headers so that the change is permanent?

It does, yes.

> > Replies to the tagged child message will be rethreaded as you'd expect,
> > unless they themselves have incorrect In-Reply-To (etc.) headers in
> > which case you can repeat the procedure.
>
> Good point...given some of my users/correspondents that's entirely likely.
> Of course, a really smart MUA would cache what it had done so that it could
> repeat it automatically for fresh incoming messages :-)

If it could do that, then there'd be no need for caching - it could just
compute the thread layout "correctly" in the first place ...

> The problem is then that most of my email is either in Exchange or in my
> ISP's IMAP-accessible mailboxes (I don't actually know what their backend
> is). That means that if I download a lab of mail and fix it, I then have to
> find a way to put it back.

mutt can talk to an IMAP folder directly (and hence edit messages in it
directly, etc.), so you could try that.

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Re: MUA rethreading

Ralf Mardorf-2
In reply to this post by Ralf Mardorf-2
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 18:07:32 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>On BSD, Linux and similar related mailing lists it's possible to
>educate the users and to stand accidents, such as a not strong enough
>coffee in the morning. Hey, US-American folks, to make a coffee you
>need to put the milled coffee beans into the water, it's not enough
>just to show the water the milled coffee beans. What you call coffee in
>the USA, we call water in the rest of the world. However, outside of
>BSD, Linux and similar related mailing lists "sind Hopfen und Malz
>verloren" (there seems to be no nice idiome in English, so here's the
 ^^^^^^^^ correct
>translation https://www.dict.cc/?s=hopfen+und+malz+verlohren ).
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^ incorrect
Without typo:

https://www.dict.cc/?s=hopfen+und+malz+verloren


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OT (was: Re: MUA rethreading

Peter Flynn
In reply to this post by Ralf Mardorf-2
On 14/01/18 17:07, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On BSD, Linux and similar related mailing lists it's possible to
> educate the users and to stand accidents, such as a not strong enough
> coffee in the morning. Hey, US-American folks, to make a coffee you
> need to put the milled coffee beans into the water, it's not enough
> just to show the water the milled coffee beans. What you call coffee in
> the USA, we call water in the rest of the world.

That's a little unfair these days; it really only applies to what they
call "regular" coffee.

> However, outside of
> BSD, Linux and similar related mailing lists "sind Hopfen und Malz
> verloren" (there seems to be no nice idiom in English, so here's the
> translation https://www.dict.cc/?s=hopfen+und+malz+verloren ).

...outside of BSD, Linux, and similar related mailing lists there isn't
an icicle's hope in hell (so hoffnungslos wie ein Eiszapfen in der Hölle :-)

///Peter





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Re: MUA rethreading

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Ralf Mardorf-2
On 14 January 2018 at 18:07, Ralf Mardorf <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On BSD, Linux and similar related mailing lists it's possible to
> educate the users and to stand accidents, such as a not strong enough
> coffee in the morning. Hey, US-American folks, to make a coffee you
> need to put the milled coffee beans into the water, it's not enough
> just to show the water the milled coffee beans. What you call coffee in
> the USA, we call water in the rest of the world.

Heh.

About 25 years ago, I ran IT for a Swedish stockbroker in London.

I was banned from making the coffee. I made it with the recommended
amount of ground coffee and water. It was black and opaque and it
provided a welcoming stimulant effect.

My Swedish colleagues couldn't drink it. They filled the Kona jug to
the brim -- about 2½× the recommended amount of water. The result
looked like tea and tasted like, well, warm water that had been in the
same room as coffee.

I used to put Nescafé in my mug and fill it with Swedish-style brown
water for a beverage that resembled coffee.

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