Mouse accessibility problem

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Mouse accessibility problem

Jim Price-4
I'm trying to solve a problem with double clicking the mouse for someone
with jittery hand movements. The problem is that there is usually enough
movement between their first and second clicks of a double click that it
is registered as two single clicks in different places. This has all
sorts of unwanted side effects, all of which include doing something
different to what was intended. I have an idea of what it might take to
address the issue - hold the mouse pointer still for the duration of the
double click detection period. This would be a bit like sticky keys for
the keyboard, but googling for sticky mouse doesn't get me very far as
anyone who remembers ball mice will understand. Has anyone seen a
setting anywhere which might do this, or maybe a program or any other
way of doing it? Suggestions welcome.

--
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Re: Mouse accessibility problem

J Fernyhough
On 08/04/18 14:08, Jim Price wrote:
> I'm trying to solve a problem with double clicking the mouse for someone
> with jittery hand movements. The problem is that there is usually enough
> movement between their first and second clicks of a double click that it
> is registered as two single clicks in different places.

Which DE are you using, and in what context are you double-clicking?

e.g. I've just tested under MATE 1.20 by moving the mouse while
(relatively slowly) clicking twice on an item in Caja (e.g. once on the
folder icon, once on the text) - each time it detects this as a
double-click on that item.

The other alternative is to use a trackball instead of a mouse
(something I've come to prefer generally _anyway_).

J


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Re: Mouse accessibility problem

Jim Price-4
On 08/04/18 15:44, J Fernyhough wrote:
> On 08/04/18 14:08, Jim Price wrote:
>> I'm trying to solve a problem with double clicking the mouse for someone
>> with jittery hand movements. The problem is that there is usually enough
>> movement between their first and second clicks of a double click that it
>> is registered as two single clicks in different places.
>
> Which DE are you using, and in what context are you double-clicking?

MATE is what we're trying to use, but if there's a solution only in a
desktop other than MATE then that's what it's going to be. The context
is any application which needs a double click to do things, and drag and
drop is affected too, which is a further problem but easier to deal with
than double clicking. My suggested solution allows drag and drop to
start working after the double click timeout has expired. I would  have
thought that it wouldn't necessarily be desktop specific as the
underlying mouse activity is handled by X11. Some desktops do get
involved I believe but by no means all of them. A solution which only
relies on X11 should work for all of them.

> e.g. I've just tested under MATE 1.20 by moving the mouse while
> (relatively slowly) clicking twice on an item in Caja (e.g. once on the
> folder icon, once on the text) - each time it detects this as a
> double-click on that item.

If you can use a keyboard you don't have it as bad as this user. She has
a sense of timing which is about enough to hit a location with the
mouse, but usually only once at the same location. A double click rarely
works either because of change of location and/or inability to get two
clicks done in time - sometimes both. Upping the double click delay
often results in the second click being even further away. Slowing the
mouse right down makes typing on the onscreen keyboard even more laborious.

> The other alternative is to use a trackball instead of a mouse
> (something I've come to prefer generally _anyway_).

Sadly that didn't work out, but thanks for the suggestions.

--
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Re: Mouse accessibility problem

J Fernyhough
On 08/04/18 16:27, Jim Price wrote:
> MATE is what we're trying to use

How about Mouse Keys (under Keyboard Preferences)?

Cursor can be positioned by both/either numpad keys or mouse, then a
click by pressing a key without worrying about accidentally moving the
cursor around.

Though, if the person concerned isn't able to easily use a keyboard it's
not really a solution...

J

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Re: Mouse accessibility problem

Jim Price-4
On 08/04/18 16:52, J Fernyhough wrote:

> On 08/04/18 16:27, Jim Price wrote:
>> MATE is what we're trying to use
>
> How about Mouse Keys (under Keyboard Preferences)?
>
> Cursor can be positioned by both/either numpad keys or mouse, then a
> click by pressing a key without worrying about accidentally moving the
> cursor around.
>
> Though, if the person concerned isn't able to easily use a keyboard it's
> not really a solution...

Unfortunately that is the case. The chances of hitting something with
the mouse are quite a lot higher than hitting a given key on the
keyboard. A significantly larger keyboard might help but I haven't
managed to find a suitable one, plus it needs to be usable from a bed.
That's where the mouse wins as you don't have to take your eyes away
from the screen to aim at the target and you can keep your fingers on
the one (or sometimes two) buttons needed to use a mouse a lot more
reliably than four keyboard keys (and big button mice have proved
straightforward to obtain).
Thanks anyway.

--
Jim


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Re: Mouse accessibility problem

Ram-48
In reply to this post by Jim Price-4
Not at my Ubuntu machine so can't check. But, I've got my opensuse laptop at hand. There's an option to use a single click to open files and folders.  Not sure if this is of use.

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Today's Topics:

   1.  Mouse accessibility problem (Jim Price)
   2. Re:  Mouse accessibility problem (J Fernyhough)
   3. Re:  Mouse accessibility problem (Jim Price)
   4. Re:  Mouse accessibility problem (J Fernyhough)
   5. Re:  Mouse accessibility problem (Jim Price)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 14:08:46 +0100
From: Jim Price <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [ubuntu-uk] Mouse accessibility problem
Message-ID: <pad44v$gau$[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

I'm trying to solve a problem with double clicking the mouse for someone 
with jittery hand movements. The problem is that there is usually enough 
movement between their first and second clicks of a double click that it 
is registered as two single clicks in different places. This has all 
sorts of unwanted side effects, all of which include doing something 
different to what was intended. I have an idea of what it might take to 
address the issue - hold the mouse pointer still for the duration of the 
double click detection period. This would be a bit like sticky keys for 
the keyboard, but googling for sticky mouse doesn't get me very far as 
anyone who remembers ball mice will understand. Has anyone seen a 
setting anywhere which might do this, or maybe a program or any other 
way of doing it? Suggestions welcome.

-- 
Jim




------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 15:44:59 +0100
From: J Fernyhough <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] Mouse accessibility problem
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On 08/04/18 14:08, Jim Price wrote:
> I'm trying to solve a problem with double clicking the mouse for someone
> with jittery hand movements. The problem is that there is usually enough
> movement between their first and second clicks of a double click that it
> is registered as two single clicks in different places.

Which DE are you using, and in what context are you double-clicking?

e.g. I've just tested under MATE 1.20 by moving the mouse while
(relatively slowly) clicking twice on an item in Caja (e.g. once on the
folder icon, once on the text) - each time it detects this as a
double-click on that item.

The other alternative is to use a trackball instead of a mouse
(something I've come to prefer generally _anyway_).

J

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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 16:27:02 +0100
From: Jim Price <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] Mouse accessibility problem
Message-ID: <padc8a$30a$[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 08/04/18 15:44, J Fernyhough wrote:
> On 08/04/18 14:08, Jim Price wrote:
>> I'm trying to solve a problem with double clicking the mouse for someone
>> with jittery hand movements. The problem is that there is usually enough
>> movement between their first and second clicks of a double click that it
>> is registered as two single clicks in different places.
> 
> Which DE are you using, and in what context are you double-clicking?

MATE is what we're trying to use, but if there's a solution only in a 
desktop other than MATE then that's what it's going to be. The context 
is any application which needs a double click to do things, and drag and 
drop is affected too, which is a further problem but easier to deal with 
than double clicking. My suggested solution allows drag and drop to 
start working after the double click timeout has expired. I would  have 
thought that it wouldn't necessarily be desktop specific as the 
underlying mouse activity is handled by X11. Some desktops do get 
involved I believe but by no means all of them. A solution which only 
relies on X11 should work for all of them.

> e.g. I've just tested under MATE 1.20 by moving the mouse while
> (relatively slowly) clicking twice on an item in Caja (e.g. once on the
> folder icon, once on the text) - each time it detects this as a
> double-click on that item.

If you can use a keyboard you don't have it as bad as this user. She has 
a sense of timing which is about enough to hit a location with the 
mouse, but usually only once at the same location. A double click rarely 
works either because of change of location and/or inability to get two 
clicks done in time - sometimes both. Upping the double click delay 
often results in the second click being even further away. Slowing the 
mouse right down makes typing on the onscreen keyboard even more laborious.

> The other alternative is to use a trackball instead of a mouse
> (something I've come to prefer generally _anyway_).

Sadly that didn't work out, but thanks for the suggestions.

-- 
Jim




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 16:52:17 +0100
From: J Fernyhough <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] Mouse accessibility problem
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

On 08/04/18 16:27, Jim Price wrote:
> MATE is what we're trying to use

How about Mouse Keys (under Keyboard Preferences)?

Cursor can be positioned by both/either numpad keys or mouse, then a
click by pressing a key without worrying about accidentally moving the
cursor around.

Though, if the person concerned isn't able to easily use a keyboard it's
not really a solution...

J



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 17:02:37 +0100
From: Jim Price <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] Mouse accessibility problem
Message-ID: <padeat$kon$[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 08/04/18 16:52, J Fernyhough wrote:
> On 08/04/18 16:27, Jim Price wrote:
>> MATE is what we're trying to use
> 
> How about Mouse Keys (under Keyboard Preferences)?
> 
> Cursor can be positioned by both/either numpad keys or mouse, then a
> click by pressing a key without worrying about accidentally moving the
> cursor around.
> 
> Though, if the person concerned isn't able to easily use a keyboard it's
> not really a solution...

Unfortunately that is the case. The chances of hitting something with 
the mouse are quite a lot higher than hitting a given key on the 
keyboard. A significantly larger keyboard might help but I haven't 
managed to find a suitable one, plus it needs to be usable from a bed. 
That's where the mouse wins as you don't have to take your eyes away 
from the screen to aim at the target and you can keep your fingers on 
the one (or sometimes two) buttons needed to use a mouse a lot more 
reliably than four keyboard keys (and big button mice have proved 
straightforward to obtain).
Thanks anyway.

-- 
Jim




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Re: Mouse accessibility problem

Jim Price-4
In reply to this post by Jim Price-4
That'll solve the problem for a file manager, but there is another
related problem which it won't solve. When the mouse moves after the
button down of a single click in e.g. Firefox the link can move instead
of registering a click. Getting the mouse button down and up in a short
time is as difficult as getting a reliable double click it would seem.
The text of the link then floats above the page and drops wherever the
release of the mouse button happens. This makes opening pages from a
link somewhat dependent on being able to keep the mouse stable.
Apologies for the mission creep.

Thanks anyway for the suggestion.

--
Jim

On 09/04/18 14:58, [hidden email] wrote:
> Not at my Ubuntu machine so can't check. But, I've got my opensuse laptop at hand. There's an option to use a single click to open files and folders.  Not sure if this is of use.



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Re: Mouse accessibility problem

J Fernyhough
On 09/04/18 17:50, Jim Price wrote:
> Getting the mouse button down and up in a short
> time is as difficult as getting a reliable double click it would seem.


After doing some more digging the libinput "DragLockButtons" option may
help with this:


>  Option "DragLockButtons" "L1 B1 L2 B2 ..."
>
>     Sets "drag lock buttons" that simulate a button logically down even when it has been physically released. To logically release a locked button, a second click of the same button is required.
>
>     If the option is a single button number, that button acts as the "meta" locking button for the next button number. See section Button Drag Lock for details.
>
>     If the option is a list of button number pairs, the first number of each number pair is the lock button, the second number the logical button number to be locked. See section Button Drag Lock for details.
>
>     For both meta and button pair configuration, the button numbers are device button numbers, i.e. the ButtonMapping applies after drag lock.


http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/xenial/man4/libinput.4.html


However, it also seems as though you're trying to address
mutually-exclusive issues. On the one hand, you want to allow a
single-click-then-move to trigger drag-and-drop behaviour, while at the
same time you want to prevent a single-click-and-move from triggering
drag-and-drop behaviour.

The only way to address this is to separate cursor movement from
clicking and so allow independent control over both activities. This can
not be accomplished with a single mouse - you either need to look again
at larger trackballs (with a central ball, Expert or Orbit-style), or
some other input device, for example a trackpad, trackpoint/joystick,
dedicated "click" key/button, or breath controller.

J

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Re: Mouse accessibility problem

Paul Sutton-3
In reply to this post by Jim Price-4
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

In CSS can you use the code that makes a border around the text,  so
as well as the actual visible link text there is a border you can't
see round the side, if you use a:hover then you can change the link
text too,  so it changes colour when in the right place.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2570972/css-font-border

basically increase the area where the mouse changes from a pointer to
a text select thing.

Paul

On 09/04/18 17:50, Jim Price wrote:

> That'll solve the problem for a file manager, but there is another
> related problem which it won't solve. When the mouse moves after
> the button down of a single click in e.g. Firefox the link can move
> instead of registering a click. Getting the mouse button down and
> up in a short time is as difficult as getting a reliable double
> click it would seem. The text of the link then floats above the
> page and drops wherever the release of the mouse button happens.
> This makes opening pages from a link somewhat dependent on being
> able to keep the mouse stable. Apologies for the mission creep.
>
> Thanks anyway for the suggestion.
>

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Torbay Tech Jam http://torbaytechjam.org.uk
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Re: Mouse accessibility problem

Jim Price-4
In reply to this post by J Fernyhough
Discussion inline - see below:

On 09/04/18 21:06, J Fernyhough wrote:
> On 09/04/18 17:50, Jim Price wrote:
>> Getting the mouse button down and up in a short
>> time is as difficult as getting a reliable double click it would seem.
>
>
> After doing some more digging the libinput "DragLockButtons" option may
> help with this:

Thanks, will investigate.

> http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/xenial/man4/libinput.4.html

The "TappingDrag" setting might be worth looking at too. The overall
problem is similar to the problem some people have with using
tap-to-click on touchpads, but this setting enables dragging to be
disabled between button-down and button-up, if I understand it correctly.

> However, it also seems as though you're trying to address
> mutually-exclusive issues. On the one hand, you want to allow a
> single-click-then-move to trigger drag-and-drop behaviour, while at the
> same time you want to prevent a single-click-and-move from triggering
> drag-and-drop behaviour.

Maybe I didn't explain it very well. The idea is to eliminate
drag-and-drop altogether in the case of a single click. Normally the
drag would occur between button-down and button-up, and the user pretty
much can't avoid dragging between button-down and button-up. With double
clicks (assuming the first single click worked), the interval between
the first click and the end of the second click unavoidably includes
movement, which causes all kinds of unwanted behaviour. Again, disabling
movement in the double click timeout period would at least allow a
double click to be executed in the same place, albeit at the expense of
jettisoning drag-n-drop.

> The only way to address this is to separate cursor movement from
> clicking and so allow independent control over both activities. This can
> not be accomplished with a single mouse - you either need to look again
> at larger trackballs (with a central ball, Expert or Orbit-style), or
> some other input device, for example a trackpad, trackpoint/joystick,
> dedicated "click" key/button, or breath controller.

I'd still like to try the disabling of all dragging and dropping by
disabling movement during a double click timeout, as many desktops can
be operated without drag and drop altogether. I have not ruled out other
hardware solutions, but the trackballs and trackpads tried so far have
not worked out. The trackpad was the most promising, but getting hold of
a suitably large trackpad has proven difficult. There have been some
fairly large ones made, but the best looking candidates have been
discontinued (thanks Logitec). A graphics tablet would be large enough,
so that might be another possibility.

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Re: Mouse accessibility problem

Jim Price-4
In reply to this post by Paul Sutton-3
Thanks. It might be possible to insert this kind of thing into the users
browser, but that leaves all other applications with the same problem,
the crucial one being the onscreen keyboard.

--
Jim

On 09/04/18 23:16, Paul Sutton wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> In CSS can you use the code that makes a border around the text,  so
> as well as the actual visible link text there is a border you can't
> see round the side, if you use a:hover then you can change the link
> text too,  so it changes colour when in the right place.
>
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2570972/css-font-border
>
> basically increase the area where the mouse changes from a pointer to
> a text select thing.
>
> Paul
>
> On 09/04/18 17:50, Jim Price wrote:
>> That'll solve the problem for a file manager, but there is another
>> related problem which it won't solve. When the mouse moves after
>> the button down of a single click in e.g. Firefox the link can move
>> instead of registering a click. Getting the mouse button down and
>> up in a short time is as difficult as getting a reliable double
>> click it would seem. The text of the link then floats above the
>> page and drops wherever the release of the mouse button happens.
>> This makes opening pages from a link somewhat dependent on being
>> able to keep the mouse stable. Apologies for the mission creep.
>>
>> Thanks anyway for the suggestion.
>>
>
> - --
> http://www.zleap.net
> Torbay Tech Jam http://torbaytechjam.org.uk
> Next Tech jam 2nd Saturday of the month
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Re: Mouse accessibility problem

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Jim Price-4
On 10 April 2018 at 14:25, Jim Price <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The trackpad was the most promising, but getting hold of a
> suitably large trackpad has proven difficult.

IME trackpads require _more_ precise motor control than mice etc.


> There have been some fairly
> large ones made, but the best looking candidates have been discontinued
> (thanks Logitec).

Such things exist:

https://www.amazon.com/BIGtrack-2-0-Trackball-Buttons-12000006/dp/B0006ZM7VY

More info:

http://www.fentek-ind.com/Bigtrack.htm

Alternative:

https://www.infogrip.com/kidtrac.html


> A graphics tablet would be large enough, so that might be
> another possibility.

Usually these are high-precision devices which might not be helpful.

Re keyboards, we used these for my computers-for-the-elderly startup:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-Oversized-Large-Print-Elderly-kid-Child-Computer-Keyboard-Big-Yellow-Keys-/112405647101

Also see:

http://www.inclusive.co.uk/big-keys-lx-p1997

But an overlay with holes above the screens can be a big help for
those with severe motor deficits.

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Re: Mouse accessibility problem

Liam Proven
On 10 April 2018 at 16:06, Liam Proven <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> But an overlay with holes above the screens can be a big help for
> those with severe motor deficits.

Holes above the *keys*. Sorry.

Example:

http://atmac.org/ipad-keyguards-available/keyguard-infogrip

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Re: Mouse accessibility problem

Jim Price-4
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
Thanks. The big trackball looks like it might be difficult to try before
you buy as the links suggest they're across the Atlantic. Keyboards
don't solve the mouse problem, but I will suggest it.

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Jim

On 10/04/18 15:06, Liam Proven wrote:

> On 10 April 2018 at 14:25, Jim Price <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> The trackpad was the most promising, but getting hold of a
>> suitably large trackpad has proven difficult.
>
> IME trackpads require _more_ precise motor control than mice etc.
>
>
>> There have been some fairly
>> large ones made, but the best looking candidates have been discontinued
>> (thanks Logitec).
>
> Such things exist:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/BIGtrack-2-0-Trackball-Buttons-12000006/dp/B0006ZM7VY
>
> More info:
>
> http://www.fentek-ind.com/Bigtrack.htm
>
> Alternative:
>
> https://www.infogrip.com/kidtrac.html
>
>
>> A graphics tablet would be large enough, so that might be
>> another possibility.
>
> Usually these are high-precision devices which might not be helpful.
>
> Re keyboards, we used these for my computers-for-the-elderly startup:
>
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-Oversized-Large-Print-Elderly-kid-Child-Computer-Keyboard-Big-Yellow-Keys-/112405647101
>
> Also see:
>
> http://www.inclusive.co.uk/big-keys-lx-p1997
>
> But an overlay with holes above the screens can be a big help for
> those with severe motor deficits.
>



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