Moving towards NetworkManager

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Re: interface renaming (was: Re: Moving towards NetworkManager)

Karl Auer
On Sat, 2016-07-30 at 09:13 +0200, Josef Wolf wrote:
> I still fail to see the problem that this new system is trying to
> solve.

Read this:

https://www.mwave.com.au/product/wd-my-passport-ultra-3tb-usb-30-premiu
m-portable-storage-black-ab67207

Regards, K.

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Re: Moving towards NetworkManager

Tom H-4
In reply to this post by Ralf Mardorf-2
On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Ralf Mardorf <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 15:21:37 -0400, Tom H wrote:
>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>>>
>>> Ubuntu is a user-friendly distro and Arch is _not_ user-friendly,
>>> it#s user-centric.
>>
>> Arch likes to promote itself as non-user-friendly. If that's what
>> floats its boat, why not; but there's nothing magical or particularly
>> difficult about installing and maintaining an Arch system.
>
> I agree. Maintaining an Arch install is also very simple, but requires
> some attention, that by a so called user-friendly distro isn't needed.
>
> For example, the filesystem hierarchy standard changed perhaps 2 or 3
> years ago. For most users this was a trouble-free transition, but by
> the nature of this kind of change, it wasn't trouble-free for
> everybody.
>
> A released based model distro could make such a transition much
> user-friendlier.

The FHS didn't change! Arch and Fedora decided to turn "/bin" "/lib"
"/sbin" into symlinks (I'm not an Arch user but, IIRC, it turned
"/usr/sbin" into a symlink too). I don't know how Arch did it

I have no idea how Arch dealt withe transition. Fedora had a dracut
module that had to be run once in order to do the necessary before
switching out of the initramfs.

There's a perl script in Debian that can be used to effect this
change. I don't know whether the changes that had to be made to
various packages to allow this transition have made it into 16.04.
They've probably made it into 16.10.


> It doesn't harm to regularly read the Arch news, before upgrading,
> while it's less important for an Ubuntu install, to read Ubuntu news.

That's not because Arch is intrinsically more difficult to use and
manager but because it uses the latest upstream packages. My laptop
currently triple-boots Ubuntu 16.10, Fedora rawhide, and Debian sid.
This might not be as bleeding edge as Arch but it's close enough that
I have to keep an eye on what's being installed :)

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Re: interface renaming (was: Re: Moving towards NetworkManager)

Josef Wolf
In reply to this post by Karl Auer
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 05:46:55PM +1000, Karl Auer wrote:
> On Sat, 2016-07-30 at 09:13 +0200, Josef Wolf wrote:
> > I still fail to see the problem that this new system is trying to
> > solve.
>
> Read this:
>
> https://www.mwave.com.au/product/wd-my-passport-ultra-3tb-usb-30-premiu
> m-portable-storage-black-ab67207

I don't exaclty understand what an external USB drive has to do with the
naming of network interfaces.

But to add to the discussion: the trouble with the new naming scheme is not
only for the average user. It also affects package maintainers and system
administrators. For example: when you install snort, it defaults to eth0. With
the old naming scheme, it was safe to simply accept this default as long as
you have only one interface. With the new naming scheme, if you install
unattended (accepting the defaults), you'll not even notice that snort is not
running.

Hey, that's what I call progress...

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Re: interface renaming (was: Re: Moving towards NetworkManager)

Karl Auer
On Sat, 2016-07-30 at 12:49 +0200, Josef Wolf wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 05:46:55PM +1000, Karl Auer wrote:
> > Read this:
> >
> > https://www.mwave.com.au/product/wd-my-passport-ultra-3tb-usb-
> > 30premium-portable-storage-black-ab67207
>
> I don't exactly understand what an external USB drive has to do with
> the naming of network interfaces.

Oops, LOL :-)

Sorry, I managed to paste utterly the wrong link in there.

Um, try this one:

https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInt
erfaceNames/

Regards, K.

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Re: interface renaming (was: Re: Moving towards NetworkManager)

Karl Auer
In reply to this post by Josef Wolf
On Sat, 2016-07-30 at 12:49 +0200, Josef Wolf wrote:
> But to add to the discussion: the trouble with the new naming scheme
> is not only for the average user. It also affects package maintainers
> and system administrators. For example: when you install snort, it
> defaults to eth0.

All non-trivial changes have side-effects and require things to be
adjusted and adapted to. They are *supposed* to make a difference.

Opinion is sometimes divided as to whether this or that change is for
the better, but I think in general there are enough bodies involved for
all sides to get a hearing if they want.

As to snort, I think a piece of security software should have a
slightly smarter install. It should warn the user if if the configured
interface does not exist. But it has to be said also that the user of a
piece of software like snort is presumably motivated to check this sort
of thing out themselves, too.

The problem of making assumptions about interface names is not new
(though I guess it's now more common). I had an old Thinkpad once that
for some reason I never understood came up with eth1 and wlan1 instead
of eth0 and wlan0. LOTS of stuff failed to install properly, and IMHO
all of those things that failed to install had inadequate install
scripts.

Maybe the move to predictable interface names will have a positive
side-effect - removing some unwarranted assumptions from install
scripts.

Regards, K.

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Re: Moving towards NetworkManager

Ralf Mardorf-2
In reply to this post by Tom H-4
On Sat, 30 Jul 2016 06:44:41 -0400, Tom H wrote:
>That's not because Arch is intrinsically more difficult to use and
>manager but because it uses the latest upstream packages.

Nobody said that, for several users, including myself, Arch is easier to
use, than Ubuntu.

Back to the topic, if a user wants a tailored install, then the
chosen disrto could be important, but more important is the policy of
the distro from different points of view. It's possible to customize
an Ubuntu install to fit to individual needs, e.g. it's possible to
purge network manager. Switching to another distro not necessarily is
useful, especially if one distro provides LTS releases and the other
distro is a rolling release. Instead of switching to another distro a
user should consider to do a minimalist install or to chose an Ubuntu
flavour, assumed the issue with a default Ubuntu is related to the
software that is installed by default. Choosing another distro is
useful, if several aspects of the different policy fit better to a
users needs.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: interface renaming (was: Re: Moving towards NetworkManager)

Josef Wolf
In reply to this post by Karl Auer
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 09:14:28PM +1000, Karl Auer wrote:
> All non-trivial changes have side-effects and require things to be
> adjusted and adapted to. They are *supposed* to make a difference.

That's true.

OTOH, what good is a non-trivial change if it (maybe) improves some rare-cases
but complicates 99% of all the other cases?

> I had an old Thinkpad once that for some reason I never understood came up
> with eth1 and wlan1 instead of eth0 and wlan0.

Well, maybe it would have been making sense to investigate (and fix) that?

> Maybe the move to predictable interface names will have a positive
> side-effect - removing some unwarranted assumptions from install

The question is: what EXACTLY does "predictable interface name" mean?

For me as a average user, ethX was PRETTY MUCH predictable

For me as a maintainer of automatic system/network configuration, ethX was
PRETTY MUCH predictable

For the maintainers of the snort package, eth0 was PRETTY MUCH predictable.

I don't find the wild combination of digits and letters predictable at all...

In the old days, I simply did "ifup eth0"

Nowadays, I do:
- "ifconfig -a"        # to find out the interface name
- "ifconfig -a | less" # the previous command scrolled out of the screen
- search for the relevant entry
- need to find my glasses to read the exact combination of letters/digits
- "ifup e76rthf8       # finally

Yeah! That's what "predictable names" mean in my day-to-day basis

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Re: interface renaming (was: Re: Moving towards NetworkManager)

Colin Law
In reply to this post by Karl Auer
On 30 July 2016 at 11:59, Karl Auer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, 2016-07-30 at 12:49 +0200, Josef Wolf wrote:
>> On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 05:46:55PM +1000, Karl Auer wrote:
>> > Read this:
>> >
>> > https://www.mwave.com.au/product/wd-my-passport-ultra-3tb-usb-
>> > 30premium-portable-storage-black-ab67207
>>
>> I don't exactly understand what an external USB drive has to do with
>> the naming of network interfaces.
>
> Oops, LOL :-)
>
> Sorry, I managed to paste utterly the wrong link in there.
>
> Um, try this one:
>
> https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInt
> erfaceNames/

Or even this one
https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames/
(if it survives being chopped up in the mail system) which,
interestingly, seems to contradict some information previously given
in this thread.

Colin

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Re: Moving towards NetworkManager

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Josef Wolf
On 29 July 2016 at 22:04, Josef Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
> You're probably right. I think, you need some grade of madness to survive in
> this world.

There is truth in that! :-)

> I was not aware about sublte differences in apt-gt/aptitude.

I don't think this counts as "subtle"!

>  A long time ago I
> asked on this list whether aptitude is a proper tool and received positive
> answers.

Really? That is surprising. Debian recommends ``aptitude'' but Ubuntu
never did and now Ubuntu offers the ``apt'' command instead. I have
switched to this. It behaves just like apt-get/apt-cache etc., but the
commands are shorter and the progress indication is much better.

E.g.

sudo apt update ; sudo apt dist-upgrade -y

... instead of:

sudo apt-get update ; sudo apt-get dist-upgrade -y

Saves 8 characters, 2 of them punctuation marks. As Neal Stephenson said:

«
Note the obsessive use of abbreviations and avoidance of capital
letters; this is a system invented by people to whom repetitive stress
disorder is what black lung is to miners. Long names get worn down to
three-letter nubbins, like stones smoothed by a river.
»

http://artlung.com/smorgasborg/C_R_Y_P_T_O_N_O_M_I_C_O_N.shtml



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Re: Moving towards NetworkManager

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Tom H-4
On 30 July 2016 at 12:44, Tom H <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The FHS didn't change! Arch and Fedora decided to turn "/bin" "/lib"
> "/sbin" into symlinks (I'm not an Arch user but, IIRC, it turned
> "/usr/sbin" into a symlink too).


A good idea IMHO.

It is not 1976 any more. You don't need to rescue a system by bringing
it up in single-user mode and painstakingly troubleshooting. You boot
off a USB key into a full OS, and use it to do the recover. Result,
the OS can live in a single partition, a big one as space is now
cheap, and a lot of complexity can be eliminated.


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Re: interface renaming (was: Re: Moving towards NetworkManager)

Josef Wolf
In reply to this post by Colin Law
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 01:35:47PM +0100, Colin Law wrote:
> On 30 July 2016 at 11:59, Karl Auer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames/
> https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames/

We've seen this link multiple times in this thread.

> (if it survives being chopped up in the mail system) which,
> interestingly, seems to contradict some information previously given
> in this thread.

What does it contradict?

Might this contradiction be a result of the propaganda they have to spread
in order to propagate their system?

Here's what I see on a 14.04:

  root@vdr1:/etc/udev/rules.d# grep eth *
  70-persistent-net.rules:#SUBSYSTEM=="net",[...], ATTR{address}=="00:xx:xx:xx:xx:58",[...], NAME="eth0"
  70-persistent-net.rules:SUBSYSTEM=="net",[...], ATTR{address}=="00:xx:xx:xx:xx:cc",[...], NAME="eth0"
  70-persistent-net.rules~:SUBSYSTEM=="net",[...], ATTR{address}=="00:xx:xx:xx:xx:58",[...], NAME="eth0"
  70-persistent-net.rules~:SUBSYSTEM=="net",[...], ATTR{address}=="00:xx:xx:xx:xx:cc",[...], NAME="eth1"

(I shortened the lines to keep them readable)

Here, you actually see the traces of "swapping" the interface names. The emacs
backup file (the one with the tilde) represents the state as it was
auto-detected. The commented line is the on-board interface, that did not work
for me. The not-commented line is the pci card, which was auto-detected as
eth1 and which I renamed to eth0 just by editing one text file.

Simple... effective... working!

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Re: interface renaming (was: Re: Moving towards NetworkManager)

Karl Auer
On Sat, 2016-07-30 at 15:11 +0200, Josef Wolf wrote:
> Might this contradiction be a result of the propaganda they have to
> spread in order to propagate their system?

This sort of thing gives me the royal s**ts. "They", and many others,
have given thousands upon thousands of hours of their time for free to
build a better system. A system that you get to use for absolutely no
money down. Free as in beer, free as in libre, free as in speech and
free as in air. Free, free, free.

So if you have constructive criticism, deliver it to the people who can
use it. If you don't want to use the new system, apply one of the
extremely well-documented configurations that will allow you to name
your interfaces however you like.

But if all you want to do is whinge, then I for one do not want to read
about it.

   http://biplane.com.au/blog/?p=375

> Simple... effective... working!

Just like the current system.

Here are my interfaces on 16.04:

   kauer@kt:~$ ifconfig | grep encap | cut -d\  -f1
   eth0
   lo
   wlan0

And this is all that was needed:

   kauer@kt:/etc/systemd/network$ cat 10-wlan0.link 
   [Match]
   MACAddress=xx:xx:xx:xx:xx:xx

   [Link]
   Name=wlan0

   kauer@kt:/etc/systemd/network$ cat 11-eth0.link 
   [Match]
   MACAddress=yy:yy:yy:yy:yy:yy

   [Link]
   Name=eth0

Regards, K.

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Re: interface renaming (was: Re: Moving towards NetworkManager)

Colin Law
In reply to this post by Josef Wolf
On 30 July 2016 at 14:11, Josef Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 01:35:47PM +0100, Colin Law wrote:
>> On 30 July 2016 at 11:59, Karl Auer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames/
>> https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames/
>
> We've seen this link multiple times in this thread.
>
>> (if it survives being chopped up in the mail system) which,
>> interestingly, seems to contradict some information previously given
>> in this thread.
>
> What does it contradict?

For example "it might very well happen that "eth0" on one boot ends up
being "eth1" on the next".

Colin

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Re: interface renaming

Rashkae-2
In reply to this post by Josef Wolf
On 16-07-30 09:11 AM, Josef Wolf wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 01:35:47PM +0100, Colin Law wrote:
>
>> https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames/
>
> What does it contradict?
>
> Might this contradiction be a result of the propaganda they have to spread
> in order to propagate their system?
> Here's what I see on a 14.04:
>
>    root@vdr1:/etc/udev/rules.d# grep eth *
>    70-persistent-net.rules:#SUBSYSTEM=="net",[...], ATTR{address}=="00:xx:xx:xx:xx:58",[...], NAME="eth0"
>    70-persistent-net.rules:SUBSYSTEM=="net",[...], ATTR{address}=="00:xx:xx:xx:xx:cc",[...], NAME="eth0"
>    70-persistent-net.rules~:SUBSYSTEM=="net",[...], ATTR{address}=="00:xx:xx:xx:xx:58",[...], NAME="eth0"
>    70-persistent-net.rules~:SUBSYSTEM=="net",[...], ATTR{address}=="00:xx:xx:xx:xx:cc",[...], NAME="eth1"
>
> (I shortened the lines to keep them readable)
>
> Here, you actually see the traces of "swapping" the interface names. The emacs
> backup file (the one with the tilde) represents the state as it was
> auto-detected. The commented line is the on-board interface, that did not work
> for me. The not-commented line is the pci card, which was auto-detected as
> eth1 and which I renamed to eth0 just by editing one text file.
>
> Simple... effective... working!
>


The second paragraph under "Why" covers this example.  "working" not so
much for everyone.  If you choose to dismiss this as "propaganda", I'm
sure you're welcome to maintain your own Linux distro.

In the same link, there is documented a new file format to achieve the
same result, persistent device names that are easy for humans to
remember/understand, and based on MAC address, (if that works better for
you than PCI slot addresses.)

[Match]
MACAddress=00:a0:de:63:7a:e6

[Link]
Name=lan0

Wow.. that is *so* much worse than the udev file example you posted!!!,,
err, wait, actually, that's kind of of easy and simple.

Maybe what people here really want is a script that creates these
/etc/systemd/network/*.link files automagically when a new interface is
detected.  That would be much the same as older Ubuntu versions did with
the net-persistent udev file.  I would be entirely behind that proposal,
as I have no fondness for the new interface naming scheme myself.



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Re: interface renaming (was: Re: Moving towards NetworkManager)

Josef Wolf
In reply to this post by Colin Law
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 03:11:56PM +0100, Colin Law wrote:
> On 30 July 2016 at 14:11, Josef Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > What does it contradict?
> For example "it might very well happen that "eth0" on one boot ends up
> being "eth1" on the next".

Have you ever actually SEEN that? Myself not...

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Re: interface renaming

Josef Wolf
In reply to this post by Rashkae-2
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 10:15:12AM -0400, Rashkae wrote:

> In the same link, there is documented a new file format to achieve
> the same result, persistent device names that are easy for humans to
> remember/understand, and based on MAC address, (if that works better
> for you than PCI slot addresses.)
>
> [Match]
> MACAddress=00:a0:de:63:7a:e6
>
> [Link]
> Name=lan0
>
> Wow.. that is *so* much worse than the udev file example you
> posted!!!,, err, wait, actually, that's kind of of easy and simple.

So the question maybe boils down to: why don't distro's use this to
create human-usable interface names?

> Maybe what people here really want is a script that creates these
> /etc/systemd/network/*.link files automagically when a new interface
> is detected.

Not only for new devices, but also from the very first start when
installing.

Renaming interfaces at a later time creates a new can of worms.

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Re: interface renaming (was: Re: Moving towards NetworkManager)

Colin Law
In reply to this post by Josef Wolf
On 30 July 2016 at 15:27, Josef Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 03:11:56PM +0100, Colin Law wrote:
>> On 30 July 2016 at 14:11, Josef Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > What does it contradict?
>> For example "it might very well happen that "eth0" on one boot ends up
>> being "eth1" on the next".
>
> Have you ever actually SEEN that? Myself not...

There are many things I have not seen, that does not mean they are not correct.

Also it says "For a longer time udev shipped support for assigning
permanent "ethX" names to certain interfaces based on their MAC
addresses. This turned out to have a multitude of problems ...... As a
result support for this has been removed from systemd/udev a while
back

Colin

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Re: interface renaming

Paul Smith-2
In reply to this post by Rashkae-2
On Sat, 2016-07-30 at 10:15 -0400, Rashkae wrote:
> Wow.. that is *so* much worse than the udev file example you posted!!!,,
> err, wait, actually, that's kind of of easy and simple.

Here's the thing.  In the old method, eth0 worked right 98% of the time.

I would install on desktops, laptops, blade servers, rack-mounted
servers, etc. and all of them would use eth0.  We have racks of servers
and we could do unattended network installation via PXE and it almost
always worked fine with a standard configuration and a single puppet
setup based on eth0.

Before, we had to go in and tweak things by hand 2% of the time.  Yes,
that was certainly annoying when it happened.

With the new naming, the interface name is indeterminate.  We have to
figure out which network interface has the MAC address we actually care
about and configure it individually for every single system.

Now, we have to go in and tweak things by hand 100% of the time.

That's not better.


On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 00:08:37 +1000, Karl Auer wrote:
> This sort of thing gives me the royal s**ts. "They", and many others,
> have given thousands upon thousands of hours of their time for free to
> build a better system. A system that you get to use for absolutely no
> money down. Free as in beer, free as in libre, free as in speech and
> free as in air. Free, free, free.

Er... please consider the fact that many of US have ALSO given thousands
of hours of our time for free to build a better system.

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Re: interface renaming (was: Re: Moving towards NetworkManager)

Tom H-4
In reply to this post by Josef Wolf
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 8:03 AM, Josef Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The question is: what EXACTLY does "predictable interface name" mean?

It means that you can, for the same kernel, replace a NIC with
another, and have them both have the same name.

With the previous mechanism of naming via a correspondence between a
MAC address and a name with a rule in "/etc/udev/rules.d/", if you
replaced a NIC and it was called ethX, the replacement would be ethY,
unless you edited the NIC-naming rule.

The old way was OK if you had a couple of NICs, but once you had half
a dozen NICs on a box, ...

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Re: Moving towards NetworkManager

Tom H-4
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 9:06 AM, Liam Proven <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 30 July 2016 at 12:44, Tom H <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> The FHS didn't change! Arch and Fedora decided to turn "/bin" "/lib"
>> "/sbin" into symlinks (I'm not an Arch user but, IIRC, it turned
>> "/usr/sbin" into a symlink too).
>
> A good idea IMHO.

I'll modify your statement slightly:

A very good but disturbing idea.

(Disturbing because we're so used to the concept of "/bin" "/lib"
"/sbin" containing what's needed to bring up a minimal system with
just "/" if other filesystems happen to split out. That function's now
fulfilled by the initramfs' "/".)

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