New translation for Ubuntu

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New translation for Ubuntu

Demuxer @gmail
Hi team, Im from Guatemala and we have an interested group in create a new language option/pack.
I use to translate some english strings and know how those process works https://launchpad.net/~demuxer but now at Ubuntu Guatemala https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GuatemalanTeam we have a large mayan people using Kaqchikel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaqchikel_people and we would like to create this translation,

What is the first step?
Is it possible to have a branch from the SPANISH - LATAM ? the translators are better with spanish than english, of course this would change in another Ubuntu Release, but we prefer 'spanish' as a base.

Thanks for your reply


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Re: New translation for Ubuntu

Gunnar Hjalmarsson
Hi!

On 2017-06-02 21:49, Demuxer @gmail wrote:
> Hi team, Im from Guatemala and we have an interested group in create
> a new language option/pack.
> I use to translate some english strings and know how those process
> works https://launchpad.net/~demuxer but now at Ubuntu Guatemala
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GuatemalanTeam we have a large mayan people
> using Kaqchikel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaqchikel_people and we
>  would like to create this translation,
>
> What is the first step?

First I'd like to emphasize that translating Ubuntu into a new language
is quite a big undertaking. This check list may give you an idea of
what's involved:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/StartingTeam

One thing I'd recommend is that you talk with some members of the
Spanish translators team to get an idea of the amount of work involved
to achieve and - not least - maintain sufficient translation coverage to
justify the creation of a new language.

Otherwise, as a direct answer to your question, creating a locale for
the new language would probably be step #1.

> Is it possible to have a branch from the SPANISH - LATAM ? the
> translators are better with spanish than english, of course this
> would change in another Ubuntu Release, but we prefer 'spanish' as a
> base.

No, the translation infrastructure of Ubuntu does not allow for such an
arrangement. The original language is English, and all translations are
based on English directly.

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Re: New translation for Ubuntu

Josef Andersson-2
In reply to this post by Demuxer @gmail
Den 2017-06-03 kl. 14:00, skrev [hidden email]:

> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 13:49:28 -0600
> From: "Demuxer @gmail" <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: New translation for Ubuntu
> Message-ID:
> <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi team, Im from Guatemala and we have an interested group in create a new
> language option/pack.
> I use to translate some english strings and know how those process works
> https://launchpad.net/~demuxer but now at Ubuntu Guatemala
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GuatemalanTeam we have a large mayan people using
> Kaqchikel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaqchikel_people and we would like
> to create this translation,
>
> What is the first step?
> Is it possible to have a branch from the SPANISH - LATAM ? the translators
> are better with spanish than english, of course this would change in
> another Ubuntu Release, but we prefer 'spanish' as a base.
>
> Thanks for your reply
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-translators/attachments/20170602/b40fcf59/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 22:28:01 +0200
> From: Gunnar Hjalmarsson <[hidden email]>
> To: Demuxer <[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: New translation for Ubuntu
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Hi!
>
> On 2017-06-02 21:49, Demuxer @gmail wrote:
>> Hi team, Im from Guatemala and we have an interested group in create
>> a new language option/pack.
>> I use to translate some english strings and know how those process
>> works https://launchpad.net/~demuxer but now at Ubuntu Guatemala
>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GuatemalanTeam we have a large mayan people
>> using Kaqchikel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaqchikel_people and we
>>  would like to create this translation,
>>
>> What is the first step?
>
> First I'd like to emphasize that translating Ubuntu into a new language
> is quite a big undertaking. This check list may give you an idea of
> what's involved:
>
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/StartingTeam
>
> One thing I'd recommend is that you talk with some members of the
> Spanish translators team to get an idea of the amount of work involved
> to achieve and - not least - maintain sufficient translation coverage to
> justify the creation of a new language.
>
> Otherwise, as a direct answer to your question, creating a locale for
> the new language would probably be step #1.
>
>> Is it possible to have a branch from the SPANISH - LATAM ? the
>> translators are better with spanish than english, of course this
>> would change in another Ubuntu Release, but we prefer 'spanish' as a
>> base.
>
> No, the translation infrastructure of Ubuntu does not allow for such an
> arrangement. The original language is English, and all translations are
> based on English directly.
>

Also, I would recommend anyone starting out with a new language translation for Ubuntu to focus on the GNOME desktop. GNOME desktop is going to be the default in Ubuntu in the near future. Therefore, I would recommend you to join the GNOME Translation project, https://wiki.gnome.org/TranslationProject/ and start there.

/Josef

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Re: New translation for Ubuntu

Fòram na Gàidhlig
In reply to this post by Gunnar Hjalmarsson
> On 2017-06-02 21:49, Demuxer @gmail wrote:
>> Hi team, Im from Guatemala and we have an interested group in create
>> a new language option/pack.
>> I use to translate some english strings and know how those process
>> works https://launchpad.net/~demuxer but now at Ubuntu Guatemala
>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GuatemalanTeam we have a large mayan people
>> using Kaqchikel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaqchikel_people and we
>>  would like to create this translation,

What you need for satarting any translation project is the locale code -
 according to Wikipedia, it is "cak".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaqchikel_language

>> Is it possible to have a branch from the SPANISH - LATAM ? the
>> translators are better with spanish than english, of course this
>> would change in another Ubuntu Release, but we prefer 'spanish' as a
>> base.
>
> No, the translation infrastructure of Ubuntu does not allow for such an
> arrangement. The original language is English, and all translations are
> based on English directly.

What your translators can do is download the Spanish translation files
too for reference.

> Also, I would recommend anyone starting out with a new language
translation for Ubuntu to focus on the GNOME desktop. GNOME desktop is
going to be the default in Ubuntu in the near future. Therefore, I would
recommend you to join the GNOME Translation project,
https://wiki.gnome.org/TranslationProject/ and start there.


Agreed. Also, if this is your first localization effort, I recommend
that you find a small project to get your feet wet. Ubuntu is huge and
can be quite overwhelming.



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Re: New translation for Ubuntu

Danilo Šegan-5
In reply to this post by Demuxer @gmail
Hi Demuxer,

It would be great to see Kaqchikel as one of Ubuntu languages!

On top of the pointers others have shared, here're a few more.

The most important things to start on are:

 - locale for the language
 - fonts if anything special is needed for display purposes (it seems
generic multilingual Latin Unicode fonts like Ubuntu font or DejaVu
font should work well)
 - keyboard layout so you can enter the translations more efficiently

Long ago when I started on Serbian translations, I've gone through the
entire dance, and presented that at GUADEC.  Here are the still
relevant notes if you are starting from scratch:

  http://kvota.net/guadec/localised-desktop-talk/

Note that it may be hard to get a locale into GNU libc, but Debian has
an extended locales package that is much easier to get into.

I can help create a language on Launchpad using the ISO-639-3 code
"cak", which will allow you to start translations.  I've entered the
few basic bits, but I still need the following:

 - Name of the language as spelled in Kaqchikel
 - Plural forms: basically, do any words change in a more complex
manner when they are next to a number, or is it a simple,
English/Spanish-like singular and plural (eg. "1 thing", "7 thing*s*";
Serbian and most Slavic languages have a few more forms, eg. we
basically say "21 thing" and not "21 things"). 

You should also set up a team as explained on

  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/StartingTeam

page.

У пет, 02. 06 2017. у 13:49 -0600, Demuxer @gmail пише:

> What is the first step?
> Is it possible to have a branch from the SPANISH - LATAM ? the
> translators are better with spanish than english, of course this
> would change in another Ubuntu Release, but we prefer 'spanish' as a
> base.

You can use Launchpad to help you by using another language as a guide.

Make sure you add all the languages that you wish to translate to or
use as a guide at
  https://translations.launchpad.net/people/+me/+editlanguages

Then browse to a translation page that you'd like to contribute to, and
select "Spanish" as the guide language just before the translations
really start.

Eg. for the unity-greeter, which is the login screen that shows up when
you turn Ubuntu on, you can go to:

https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/xenial/+source/unity-greeter/+pots/unity-greeter/cak/+translate?start=0&batch=10&show=all&field.alternative_language=es&field.alternative_language-empty-marker=1&old_show=all

(if you hit a timeout, retry a few times since this functionality is
not often used and Launchpad needs to load it into cache for it to
perform better).

Once you have a locale created and installed on the system, you can
also make the system default to Kaqchikel and fall back to Spanish.
Using LANG or LANGUAGE environment variables can help with that.


Also, be aware that you'd only be submitting suggestions until you
finish with setting up a team and it gets assigned official status.

Good luck, and welcome aboard!

Cheers,
Danilo


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Re: New translation for Ubuntu

Colin Watson
On Tue, Jun 06, 2017 at 05:03:25PM +0200, Danilo Šegan wrote:
> Note that it may be hard to get a locale into GNU libc,

Is this still the case?  glibc's maintenance is a lot more functional
and welcoming now than when you last dealt with it, I suspect ...

(It's usually best to get things as far upstream as possible.)

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Re: New translation for Ubuntu

Michael Bauer
In reply to this post by Danilo Šegan-5
Since this came up, does anyone actually know who is responsible for
keyboard layouts in the world of Linux distros? I'm asking because while
I can no longer recall the details, we spent several years trying to
figure out where the (less-than-ideal) default keyboard layout for gd-GB
was coming from - and I think in the end we just gave up as there did
not seem to be a place where you could file a bug and get it fixed.

So where would you go to commit a layout these days and/or set the
default for a locale?

Michael

Sgrìobh Danilo Šegan na leanas 06/06/2017 aig 16:03:
>   - keyboard layout so you can enter the translations more efficiently


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Re: New translation for Ubuntu

Gunnar Hjalmarsson
In reply to this post by Colin Watson
On 2017-06-06 17:32, Colin Watson wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 06, 2017 at 05:03:25PM +0200, Danilo Šegan wrote:
>> Note that it may be hard to get a locale into GNU libc,
>
> Is this still the case?  glibc's maintenance is a lot more
> functional and welcoming now than when you last dealt with it, I
> suspect ...

I'd say that the responsiveness of the localedata maintainers goes up
and down over time. It may have improved, but if you are unlucky it may
take 'forever'.

The latest example I'm aware of is <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1658068>.
Patch posted upstream 6 months ago, and still not even a response. Bad.

> (It's usually best to get things as far upstream as possible.)

Indeed, and in any case trying to get a new locale accepted by glibc
should always be step #1. Patching locales in Debian and/or Ubuntu
should be a last resort.

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Re: New translation for Ubuntu

Gunnar Hjalmarsson
In reply to this post by Michael Bauer
On 2017-06-06 17:55, Michael Bauer wrote:
> does anyone actually know who is responsible for keyboard layouts in
> the world of Linux distros?

This is the upstream git repository:

https://cgit.freedesktop.org/xkeyboard-config/

Bugs with suggested changes can be filed here:

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/buglist.cgi?product=xkeyboard-config

The maintainers are currently responding quickly if there is a good
patch attached to the bug report. This is the latest bug I filed there
myself:

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=100959

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Re: New translation for Ubuntu

Michael Bauer
That, sadly was not our experience. I filed a bug in 2013 and the
rudeness aside, we were pointed back at Ubuntu.

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=64478

Michael

Sgrìobh Gunnar Hjalmarsson na leanas 06/06/2017 aig 17:26:

> On 2017-06-06 17:55, Michael Bauer wrote:
>> does anyone actually know who is responsible for keyboard layouts in
>> the world of Linux distros?
>
> This is the upstream git repository:
>
> https://cgit.freedesktop.org/xkeyboard-config/
>
> Bugs with suggested changes can be filed here:
>
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/buglist.cgi?product=xkeyboard-config
>
> The maintainers are currently responding quickly if there is a good
> patch attached to the bug report. This is the latest bug I filed there
> myself:
>
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=100959
>


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Re: New translation for Ubuntu

Gunnar Hjalmarsson
On 2017-06-06 18:31, Michael Bauer wrote:
> That, sadly was not our experience. I filed a bug in 2013 and the
> rudeness aside, we were pointed back at Ubuntu.
>
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=64478

I think that has nothing to do with poor responsiveness or rudeness. The
order of the entries in the gb symbols file isn't what's controlling the
order in which the entries appear in the installer or in Text Entry.
(And even if it did, changing the gb file to fit Scottish Gaelic users
at the expense of English speaking users wouldn't make sense.)

Creating a variant with "Scottish Gaelic" in the name, and which loads
the most suitable variant for Scottish Gaelic users, might be a step in
the right direction.

OTOH, that might lead to a similar reaction as I got when adding a
layout for a minority language in Sweden, i.e. put away to "extras".

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98177

And if so, the additional variant wouldn't make things easier...

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Ubuntu default keyboard layouts

Michael Bauer
Re-naming the thread, sorry for the hijack.

I wasn't aware that the order of keyboards is not locale dependent but
general. My assumption was that the strange IBM 166 layout only appeared
because I'd set the locale of my Ubuntu to gd-GB. I don't think IBM 166
makes an appearance if I do a clean install of en-GB or en-US. I had a
look but I've already set mine to en-GB Extended so I'm not sure what
the default is that comes up for en-US or en-GB.

I'm not averse to taking, basically, en-GB and submitting it under a
different name... that would have been the helpful thing to point out by
Sergey. So is this what you were suggesting? Rather than trying to
change the order of current keyboards, to create a "new one" (however
much based on an existing locale) and submit it? The bit I'm still hazy
about is how to make sure that this ends up being the default keyboard
when someone switches their installation from en-US to gd-GB. Who
controls that default spot?

Michael

Sgrìobh Gunnar Hjalmarsson na leanas 06/06/2017 aig 18:10:

> I think that has nothing to do with poor responsiveness or rudeness.
> The order of the entries in the gb symbols file isn't what's
> controlling the order in which the entries appear in the installer or
> in Text Entry. (And even if it did, changing the gb file to fit
> Scottish Gaelic users at the expense of English speaking users
> wouldn't make sense.)
>
> Creating a variant with "Scottish Gaelic" in the name, and which loads
> the most suitable variant for Scottish Gaelic users, might be a step
> in the right direction.
>
> OTOH, that might lead to a similar reaction as I got when adding a
> layout for a minority language in Sweden, i.e. put away to "extras".
>
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98177
>
> And if so, the additional variant wouldn't make things easier...
>


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Re: Ubuntu default keyboard layouts

Gunnar Hjalmarsson
On 2017-06-06 19:55, Michael Bauer wrote:
> Re-naming the thread, sorry for the hijack.

Well, basically it's off-topic here anyway. ;)

> I wasn't aware that the order of keyboards is not locale dependent
> but general. My assumption was that the strange IBM 166 layout only
> appeared because I'd set the locale of my Ubuntu to gd-GB. I don't
> think IBM 166 makes an appearance if I do a clean install of en-GB or
> en-US.

The "strange" layout is named "English (UK)" and is the basic layout in
the gb symbols file. I'd be surprised if that's not the one which shows
up in the installer as default if you select a UK location for the time
zone settings. I don't think it has anything to do with which language
you select.

> I'm not averse to taking, basically, en-GB and submitting it under a
>  different name... that would have been the helpful thing to point
> out by Sergey. So is this what you were suggesting? Rather than
> trying to change the order of current keyboards, to create a "new
> one" (however much based on an existing locale) and submit it?

No, that's not what I suggested. Assuming that there doesn't exist any
special Scottish Gaelic physical keyboards, and since you still want to
use an already existing layout, it wouldn't make much sense, and I have
a feeling they wouldn't approve it.

My idea was to add a variant, which would be identical with the layout
you consider most suitable, but with another name. That way the Scottish
Gaelic users would get a hint in the installer, even if the variant
wouldn't be selected by default. However, I can't tell if they would
accept that either. (They are currently aiming to reduce the number of
layout options.)

> The bit I'm still hazy about is how to make sure that this ends up
> being the default keyboard when someone switches their installation
> from en-US to gd-GB. Who controls that default spot?

That's about how the installer works. I'm not sure, but my belief is
that the installer isn't sophisticated enough to do that without pretty
extensive changes. Again: The keyboard layout it suggests depends on the
time zone location, not the selected display language.

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Re: Ubuntu default keyboard layouts

Gunnar Hjalmarsson
In reply to this post by Michael Bauer
On 2017-06-06 19:55, Michael Bauer wrote:
> Re-naming the thread, sorry for the hijack.

Well, basically it's off-topic here anyway. ;)

> I wasn't aware that the order of keyboards is not locale dependent
> but general. My assumption was that the strange IBM 166 layout only
> appeared because I'd set the locale of my Ubuntu to gd-GB. I don't
> think IBM 166 makes an appearance if I do a clean install of en-GB or
> en-US.

The "strange" layout is named "English (UK)" and is the basic layout in
the gb symbols file. I'd be surprised if that's not the one which shows
up in the installer as default if you select a UK location for the time
zone settings. I don't think it has anything to do with which language
you select.

> I'm not averse to taking, basically, en-GB and submitting it under a
>  different name... that would have been the helpful thing to point
> out by Sergey. So is this what you were suggesting? Rather than
> trying to change the order of current keyboards, to create a "new
> one" (however much based on an existing locale) and submit it?

No, that's not what I suggested. Assuming that there doesn't exist any
special Scottish Gaelic physical keyboards, and since you still want to
use an already existing layout, it wouldn't make much sense, and I have
a feeling they wouldn't approve it.

My idea was to add a variant, which would be identical with the layout
you consider most suitable, but with another name. That way the Scottish
Gaelic users would get a hint in the installer, even if the variant
wouldn't be selected by default. However, I can't tell if they would
accept that either. (They are currently aiming to reduce the number of
layout options.)

> The bit I'm still hazy about is how to make sure that this ends up
> being the default keyboard when someone switches their installation
> from en-US to gd-GB. Who controls that default spot?

That's about how the installer works. I'm not sure, but my belief is
that the installer isn't sophisticated enough to do that without pretty
extensive changes. Again: The keyboard layout it suggests depends on the
time zone location, not the selected display language.

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Re: Ubuntu default keyboard layouts

Michael Bauer
In reply to this post by Gunnar Hjalmarsson

Sgrìobh Gunnar Hjalmarsson na leanas 06/06/2017 aig 21:43:
>
> The "strange" layout is named "English (UK)" and is the basic layout
> in the gb symbols file. I'd be surprised if that's not the one which
> shows up in the installer as default if you select a UK location for
> the time zone settings. I don't think it has anything to do with which
> language you select.
Basically this one?
http://ascii-table.com/keyboard.php/166
Ok... well, not ok (I don't get it why the Extended versions of en-GB
and en-US aren't used by default more) but at least I understand why
it's there now, thanks.

>
> No, that's not what I suggested. Assuming that there doesn't exist any
> special Scottish Gaelic physical keyboards, and since you still want
> to use an already existing layout, it wouldn't make much sense, and I
> have a feeling they wouldn't approve it.
>
> My idea was to add a variant, which would be identical with the layout
> you consider most suitable, but with another name. That way the
> Scottish Gaelic users would get a hint in the installer, even if the
> variant wouldn't be selected by default. However, I can't tell if they
> would accept that either. (They are currently aiming to reduce the
> number of layout options.)
Ok I think we both mean the same thing. While there are no special hard
keyboards, we could do with a layout based on en-GB Extended that has
some extras, like the Gaelic ampersand (⁊).
>
> That's about how the installer works. I'm not sure, but my belief is
> that the installer isn't sophisticated enough to do that without
> pretty extensive changes. Again: The keyboard layout it suggests
> depends on the time zone location, not the selected display language.
Ok, so it's a bit suck-it-and-see, but it's not inconceivable that a
layout specifically for gd-GB should get bumped up in the list if
someone switches the UI to gd-GB.

Thanks for all the explanations, finally get the feeling we might get
somewhere with the keyboard issue on Linux :)

Michael


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Re: New translation for Ubuntu

Fòram na Gàidhlig
In reply to this post by Colin Watson
Sgrìobh Colin Watson na leanas 06/06/2017 aig 16:32:
> On Tue, Jun 06, 2017 at 05:03:25PM +0200, Danilo Šegan wrote:
>> Note that it may be hard to get a locale into GNU libc,
>
> Is this still the case?  glibc's maintenance is a lot more functional
> and welcoming now than when you last dealt with it, I suspect ...
>
> (It's usually best to get things as far upstream as possible.)
>

If you want to go reall really upstram, have a look at:

http://cldr.unicode.org/development/adding-locales

This data can then also be used to help create a glibc locale.

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