Ot - computer won't boot

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Ot - computer won't boot

Phil

Thank you for reading this and I know that this a vague  question but you may be able to give me a lead.

For the past  couple of days my desktop computer has been very slow to begin the boot process, perhaps 5 minutes or so. Now it won't boot all.

The disk activity led blinks at about a 3 second rate, the fans run, and speed up once the system warms, and I can measure 5 and 12 volts at the disk drive. There is no video from the on-board 
video chip (which is normal until the system boots up) and the system won't boot from the cd drive either. I've reseated various connecters and the ram board.

So, the power supply and disk drive are propably ok which leaves the mother board, ram and cpu but how I determine which one is at fault? I'm at least a 1000km from civilisation so I cannot speak to service personnel. 


Sent from Samsung tablet.

Regards,

Phil

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Re: Ot - computer won't boot

compdoc
On 03/17/2017 05:54 PM, Phil wrote:

> So, the power supply and disk drive are propably ok which leaves the
> mother board, ram and cpu

Its common for power supplies to fail, and from your description I
wouldn't rule that out yet. Motherboards used to fail a lot, but modern
boards are very reliable.

If the cpu cooler and fan are working properly, then cpu should be fine.
they rarely die.

by the way, be very certain you re-seat the ram properly and evenly.

Anyway, slow booting can be a failing drive, but no video means you have
other problems. Drives fail often as well, so its possible you have
multiple points of failure.

The universe is cruel like that.

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Re: Ot - computer won't boot

First Name Last Name
In reply to this post by Phil

On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Phil <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thank you for reading this and I know that this a vague  question but you may be able to give me a lead.

For the past  couple of days my desktop computer has been very slow to begin the boot process, perhaps 5 minutes or so. Now it won't boot all.

The disk activity led blinks at about a 3 second rate, the fans run, and speed up once the system warms, and I can measure 5 and 12 volts at the disk drive. There is no video from the on-board 
video chip (which is normal until the system boots up) and the system won't boot from the cd drive either. I've reseated various connecters and the ram board.

So, the power supply and disk drive are propably ok which leaves the mother board, ram and cpu but how I determine which one is at fault? I'm at least a 1000km from civilisation so I cannot speak to service personnel. 


Sent from Samsung tablet.

Regards,

Phil

Can you get to the boot level setup menu?
Once there, Is your system set to look for a bootloader on the CD drive?
Many systems aren't set to look to the CD drive if the hard drive times out before booting up.  On those systems it has to be configured manually.
Don't assume that just because there is power to the disk drive and the activity light is blinking that the drive isn't starting to/has failed.
ED
On the Mojave.

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Re: Ot - computer won't boot

Gene Heskett-2
In reply to this post by Phil
On Friday 17 March 2017 19:54:56 Phil wrote:

> Thank you for reading this and I know that this a vague  question but
> you may be able to give me a lead. For the past  couple of days my
> desktop computer has been very slow to begin the boot process, perhaps
> 5 minutes or so. Now it won't boot all. The disk activity led blinks
> at about a 3 second rate, the fans run, and speed up once the system
> warms, and I can measure 5 and 12 volts at the disk drive. There is no
> video from the on-board video chip (which is normal until the system
> boots up) and the system won't boot from the cd drive either. I've
> reseated various connecters and the ram board. So, the power supply
> and disk drive are propably ok which leaves the mother board, ram and
> cpu but how I determine which one is at fault? I'm at least a 1000km
> from civilisation so I cannot speak to service personnel.
>
> Sent from Samsung tablet.
> Regards,
> Phil

This isn't much to go on, but as a C.E.T., I'd be looking at the tops of
the electrolytic caps on the mainboard, particularly those right near
the cpu socket, looking for bulged or even open cracks in the safety
scratches in the aluminum on top of them. I'd also open the psu and look
at the caps in it, again looking for bulged or vented tops. This would
be a sign of the capacitor in a switching circuit, and these all are, of
excessive ESR, Equivalent Series Resistance.  PSU's of more recent
history than 10 years, seem to have a built in voltage fade with time,
and the 5 volt line, if below 4.75 to 4.8 volts when first turned on,
will hold the cpu in reset until the voltage gets above 4.8 as these
caps warm up, but eventually the ESR causes so much heating they will
vent and its game over.

What you do next depends on the soldering tools you have, and a src of
spare capacitors to install. Lacking those, you may well be out that
1000km drive back to civilization to just upgrade to fresh stuff. Even
with a hot air rework station, its hard to change the motherboard caps
because the pattern on the board is big and fat so it can serve as
additional cooling heat sinks for the caps, so you really have to turn
up the heat and potentially cook the board just to get the old ones out.

Thats my best shot at it, based on 65 years of chasing electrons to make
them do usefull work.  Best of luck guy.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: Ot - computer won't boot

Sarunas Burdulis-3
In reply to this post by Phil
On 2017-03-17 19:54, Phil wrote:

> Thank you for reading this and I know that this a vague  question but
> you may be able to give me a lead.
>
> For the past  couple of days my desktop computer has been very slow to
> begin the boot process, perhaps 5 minutes or so. Now it won't boot all.
>
> The disk activity led blinks at about a 3 second rate, the fans run, and
> speed up once the system warms, and I can measure 5 and 12 volts at the
> disk drive. There is no video from the on-board
> video chip (which is normal until the system boots up) and the system
> won't boot from the cd drive either. I've reseated various connecters
> and the ram board.
Are there any beeps, when powered up? If yes, check motherboard manual
to decode them.

Disconnect all hard drives, CD drives etc. Try booting and see whether
you still get "no bootable device" or alike.

Find the BIOS reset jumper on the motherboard. Reset BIOS.

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Re: Ot - computer won't boot

Phil
In reply to this post by Phil
I don't know if this will top-post or not, it's the first time that I've repied to a post with this tablet. Anyway, thank you for your replies

I have more thoroughly tested the power supply and all voltages are present and within spec. There are no beeps from the computer and there is no video so there aren't any fault messages. I have unpluged both the hard drive and the DVD drive just in case. I have connected the computer to the TV hdmi port in case the monitor is faulty. I have not located the reset link for the bios yet. It's a crowded ITX board.

So, it looks like I may need to seek professional help (as some unkind people have suggested). Just how I might do that, because of my remote location, is unclear to me at the moment.

I'm thinking that a replacement laptop might be the best solution. 

Sent from Samsung tablet.

Regards,

Phil

-------- Original message --------
From: Sarunas Burdulis <[hidden email]>
Date: 18/03/2017 1:08 PM (GMT+10:00)
Subject: Re: Ot - computer won't boot

On 2017-03-17 19:54, Phil wrote:

> Thank you for reading this and I know that this a vague  question but
> you may be able to give me a lead.
>
> For the past  couple of days my desktop computer has been very slow to
> begin the boot process, perhaps 5 minutes or so. Now it won't boot all.
>
> The disk activity led blinks at about a 3 second rate, the fans run, and
> speed up once the system warms, and I can measure 5 and 12 volts at the
> disk drive. There is no video from the on-board
> video chip (which is normal until the system boots up) and the system
> won't boot from the cd drive either. I've reseated various connecters
> and the ram board.

Are there any beeps, when powered up? If yes, check motherboard manual
to decode them.

Disconnect all hard drives, CD drives etc. Try booting and see whether
you still get "no bootable device" or alike.

Find the BIOS reset jumper on the motherboard. Reset BIOS.

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Re: Ot - computer won't boot

Ralf Mardorf-2
In reply to this post by Gene Heskett-2
On Fri, 17 Mar 2017 20:26:49 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>Even with a hot air rework station, its hard to change the
>motherboard caps

If I can't repair with my tools, I give it to a friend with
professional hot air equipment :). This is the last resort and always
works. The OP should be aware that unsoldering from multilayer PCBs need
to be done with care, because vertical interconnect access easily could
be damaged.

However, the issue not necessarily is that drastic as all the replies
make believe.

I would start with replacing the CMOS battery. Just replacing the
battery might not be enough, in addition it could be required to clear
the BIOS configuration by the "clear CMOS jumper". The mobo's user
manual explains how to do this.

I suspect an empty battery and/or a broken HDD or bad cable connections.
SATA cables tend to loose. IOW in addition to replacing the battery I
would unplug and then connect the SATA cables again.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: Ot - computer won't boot

Ralf Mardorf-2
In reply to this post by Sarunas Burdulis-3
On Fri, 17 Mar 2017 23:08:36 -0400, Sarunas Burdulis wrote:
>Find the BIOS reset jumper on the motherboard. Reset BIOS.

Oops, somebody already mentioned clearing the BIOS, too :).

I'm pro troubleshooting by beeps, too, but often manuals don't mention
the beep code.


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Re: Ot - computer won't boot

Ralf Mardorf-2
In reply to this post by Phil
On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 15:55:40 +1000, Phil wrote:
>I have not located the reset link for the bios yet.

Then start with removing the battery, wait a few seconds and mount the
battery again. Sometimes it's not necessary to use the clear jumper.
The clear jumper usually is close to the CMOS battery and it's better
to use the jumper in addition to removing the battery.


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Re: Ot - computer won't boot

J. L.-2
In reply to this post by Gene Heskett-2
On 18.03.2017 01:26, Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Friday 17 March 2017 19:54:56 Phil wrote:
>
>> Thank you for reading this and I know that this a vague  question but
>> you may be able to give me a lead. For the past  couple of days my
>> desktop computer has been very slow to begin the boot process, perhaps
>> 5 minutes or so. Now it won't boot all. The disk activity led blinks
>> at about a 3 second rate, the fans run, and speed up once the system
>> warms, and I can measure 5 and 12 volts at the disk drive. There is no
>> video from the on-board video chip (which is normal until the system
>> boots up) and the system won't boot from the cd drive either. I've
>> reseated various connecters and the ram board. So, the power supply
>> and disk drive are propably ok which leaves the mother board, ram and
>> cpu but how I determine which one is at fault? I'm at least a 1000km
>> from civilisation so I cannot speak to service personnel.
>>
>> Sent from Samsung tablet.
>> Regards,
>> Phil
>
> This isn't much to go on, but as a C.E.T., I'd be looking at the tops of
> the electrolytic caps on the mainboard, particularly those right near
> the cpu socket, looking for bulged or even open cracks in the safety
> scratches in the aluminum on top of them. I'd also open the psu and look
> at the caps in it, again looking for bulged or vented tops. This would
> be a sign of the capacitor in a switching circuit, and these all are, of
> excessive ESR, Equivalent Series Resistance.  PSU's of more recent
> history than 10 years, seem to have a built in voltage fade with time,
> and the 5 volt line, if below 4.75 to 4.8 volts when first turned on,
> will hold the cpu in reset until the voltage gets above 4.8 as these
> caps warm up, but eventually the ESR causes so much heating they will
> vent and its game over.
>
> What you do next depends on the soldering tools you have, and a src of
> spare capacitors to install. Lacking those, you may well be out that
> 1000km drive back to civilization to just upgrade to fresh stuff. Even
> with a hot air rework station, its hard to change the motherboard caps
> because the pattern on the board is big and fat so it can serve as
> additional cooling heat sinks for the caps, so you really have to turn
> up the heat and potentially cook the board just to get the old ones out.
>
> Thats my best shot at it, based on 65 years of chasing electrons to make
> them do usefull work.  Best of luck guy.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


Well, there's not very much i could really _add_ to this post as several
years ago i had a system with exactly the same problems (booting only
after several (sometimes even more than 10 to 15) minutes after
"power-up") the OP has described. And finally i found out that the caps
on this board had slowly been ageing and finally dying.

+1


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Re: Ot - computer won't boot

Ralf Mardorf-2
In reply to this post by Phil
On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 15:55:40 +1000, Phil wrote:
>I have more thoroughly tested the power supply and all voltages are
>present and within spec.

Did you measure under load?

>There are no beeps from the computer

There should be the "ok"-beep. No beep at all most likely is already a
signal for a failure.


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Re: Ot - computer won't boot

Grizzly-4
In reply to this post by Ralf Mardorf-2
18 March 2017  at 8:31, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
Re: Ot - computer won't boot (at least in part)

>On Fri, 17 Mar 2017 23:08:36 -0400, Sarunas Burdulis wrote:
>>Find the BIOS reset jumper on the motherboard. Reset BIOS.
>
>Oops, somebody already mentioned clearing the BIOS, too :).
>
>I'm pro troubleshooting by beeps, too, but often manuals don't mention
>the beep code.

And a lot of modern PC's have done away with the old on-board speaker so untill
PC boots (drivers etc) no sound

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Re: Ot - computer won't boot

compdoc
In reply to this post by Ralf Mardorf-2

On 03/18/2017 04:18 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 15:55:40 +1000, Phil wrote:
I have more thoroughly tested the power supply and all voltages are
present and within spec.
Did you measure under load?


This is a valid point.

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Re: Ot - computer won't boot

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Phil
On 18 March 2017 at 00:54, Phil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> So, the power supply and disk drive are propably ok which leaves the mother
> board, ram and cpu but how I determine which one is at fault? I'm at least a
> 1000km from civilisation so I cannot speak to service personnel.


Disconnect *EVERYTHING*. All internal drives, keyboards, mouse,
everything. Just power, nothing else. Take out the RAM.

Turn it on. It should beep an error indicating no RAM.

If so, your motherboard has some life in it.

Turn off.

Next, reconnect just the screen and re-fit 1 RAM module. Try again.

Do you see a POST message on the screen? If not, try a different RAM
module until you do.

Once you have got it to self-test, you have something to work from.
Next step is the keyboard *only* and USB key with Ubuntu so you can
run  Memtestx86 from the bootup menu.

If it won't get that far, it's either all your RAM (unlikely unless
you only have 1 module) or it's the M/B, CPU or PSU that have gone.
All those are trickier to troubleshoot and really need spares you can
try.

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Re: Ot - computer won't boot

Ralf Mardorf-2
In reply to this post by compdoc
On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 07:45:56 -0600, compdoc wrote:
>On 03/18/2017 04:18 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 15:55:40 +1000, Phil wrote:  
>>> I have more thoroughly tested the power supply and all voltages are
>>> present and within spec.  
>> Did you measure under load?
>
>This is a valid point.

Since I don't know what skills the OP has got or maybe doesn't have ;).
Using a multimeter to measure voltage of a power source without load
most of the times doesn't show that a battery is empty or a power
supply is broken.

Issues start as soon as there is load, let alone that when turning on
a computer, this is a special situation, where load could be even more
important.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: Ot - computer won't boot

Ralf Mardorf-2
This one didn't came through the list, too:

Begin forwarded message:

Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2017 16:47:34 +0100
From: Ralf Mardorf <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Ot - computer won't boot


On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 07:45:56 -0600, compdoc wrote:
>On 03/18/2017 04:18 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:  
>> On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 15:55:40 +1000, Phil wrote:    
>>> I have more thoroughly tested the power supply and all voltages are
>>> present and within spec.    
>> Did you measure under load?  
>
>This is a valid point.  

Since I don't know what skills the OP has got or maybe doesn't have ;).
Using a multimeter to measure voltage of a power source without load
most of the times doesn't show that a battery is empty or a power
supply is broken.

Issues start as soon as there is load, let alone that when turning on
a computer, this is a special situation, where load could be even more
important.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: Ot - computer won't boot

Xen
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
Liam Proven schreef op 18-03-2017 16:31:

> Turn it on. It should beep an error indicating no RAM.

Just want to say that there are addon cards for the PCI slot that can
show you the current error code the motherboard is giving. I have one,
but that is no use to you, and you probably can't get one if you are so
far away?

This thing will just show you the voltages, it will show you if the
motherboard is in some reset cycle (happened to me a few times) and it
will show you the error code the motherboard is currently having.

It won't show you actual voltage values though, just if it thinks it is
alright.

Or something.

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Re: Ot - computer won't boot

Ralf Mardorf-2
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 16:31:41 +0100, Liam Proven wrote:
>Disconnect *EVERYTHING*. All internal drives, keyboards, mouse,
>everything. Just power, nothing else. Take out the RAM.

This is a good advice. Not only to find out if something should be
broken, by following Liam's steps, sometimes just disassembling the
computer to all components and after that putting together everything
"repairs" a computer. However, if you follow Liam's steps, you don't
need to disassemble the computer two times, assuming directly putting
together shouldn't solve the issue ;).

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: Ot - computer won't boot

Liam Proven
On 18 March 2017 at 17:19, Ralf Mardorf <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This is a good advice. Not only to find out if something should be
> broken, by following Liam's steps, sometimes just disassembling the
> computer to all components and after that putting together everything
> "repairs" a computer. However, if you follow Liam's steps, you don't
> need to disassemble the computer two times, assuming directly putting
> together shouldn't solve the issue ;).


Thank you! And yes, this is true.

Once, on a customer's PC, I did this, in their office.

The fault was due to a cheap old HP LaserJet printer, with a parallel
Centronics connection. If the laser printer was connected to the PC,
whether it was turned on or not, the PC would not turn on.

Even stranger, it had worked for years.

Connected to another PC, it was fine, and without the Laserjet, the PC
was fine. Since both PCs were on the same network, I just shared the
printer when it was connected to the other PC, and from the one that
originally hosted the Laserjet, I made a network connection to the
printer. Both could print, all was working, and the customer was happy
and paid my invoice no problem.

But I had the PC totally disassembled -- RAM, everything -- before
tracing this problem. If I had disconnected the printer *first* it
would have saved me about 2 hours' work. But then, it would also have
made me about £150 less on the job.

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Re: Ot - computer won't boot

Ralf Mardorf-2
We forgot to mention that there is just one thing I wouldn't unplug. I
wouldn't touch the CPU and CPU fan. When assembling CPU and CPU fan,
then new heatsink paste is needed and often new heatsink paste smells
bad forever. The original heat paste from CPU vendors usually doesn't
smell, that's why only would touch the CPU if necessary.


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