Outlook installation

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Re: Outlook installation

ubuntu-users mailing list
On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 12:52:49 +0000, Tony Arnold wrote:

>Ralf,
>
>
>On Wed, 2019-04-10 at 12:44 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users wrote:
>> Instead of doing other users homework by searching the Evolution
>> mailing
>> list archives, here a link to the mailing list archive of this list:
>>
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2019-April/296601.html
>>
>>
>> If this is caused by evolution-ews, than already good night! Were is
>> the
>> end of quoting Liam and where does start Tony's reply? I guess nobody
>> want's to correspond with business partners by sending broken
>> emails.  
>
>Probably caused by me sending my reply as HTML instead of plain text
>and receiving systems not handling HTML mesages.
>
>Does this one look any better?

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2019-April/296607.html ;)


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Re: Outlook installation

rikona
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 14:22:53 +0200
Liam Proven <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 at 14:09, Grizzly via ubuntu-users
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Or DuckDuckGo i fyou find Google tooooooo invasive ;->)  
>
> There is that, yes, but TBH trying not to use Google at all is
> basically impossible.
>
> Q.v.
>
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/04/09/heres-the-shocking-reality-of-completely-blocking-google-from-your-life

Wow - that is a very interesting article. Thanks for the post. And her
other articles are equally interesting - and disturbing. I didn't
realize the magnitude of the issue...






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Re: Outlook installation

Peter Flynn
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
On 10/04/2019 17:31, Liam Proven wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 at 16:20, Peter Flynn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> This is good if you need to read older files. 2003 was the first version
>> to use XML, and it used WordML rather than OOXML and saved a .xml file
>> instead of .docx
>
> No, that was 2007. The XML file formats go along with the Ribbon interface.

I think 2007 was the first to use OOXML and save as .docx

The 2003 copy handed out (all 8 CDs :-) to delegates at the XML
Conference in Philadelphia used WordML and saved a .xml file, but
perhaps that was a preview, not the live 2003 release.

Moot anyway, as I threw out the disks after testing the XML software
(mostly rubbish because it only worked with W3C XSDs and assumed you
were using XML for rectangular data, whereas real-life XML is text
documents).

P

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Re: Outlook installation

ubuntu-users mailing list
In reply to this post by rikona
On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 13:32:51 -0700, rikona wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 14:22:53 +0200
>Liam Proven <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/04/09/heres-the-shocking-reality-of-completely-blocking-google-from-your-life 
>
>Wow - that is a very interesting article. Thanks for the post. And her
>other articles are equally interesting - and disturbing. I didn't
>realize the magnitude of the issue...

I don't ban Google. I'm using 3 services. Actually I found out that
the devil's search engine is the best search engine, alternatives such
as DuckDuckGo can't compete with Google, they fail already when
searching in English and they completely fail when searching in German.
Marbel can't compare to Google Earth. Google Chrome is the only way on
a Linux machine to get access to everything really needed from the
Internet. To really understand what I mean, install IceCat, the
absolute other extreme http://www.gnu.org/software/gnuzilla/, it shows
best the real issues with the Internet, since it isn't Google. Using
IceCat most of the Internet becomes unusable, including a lot of GNU
content. OTOH if I'm willing to give up the Google search engine,
Google Earth and Google Chrome, I unlikely would have to suffer from
anything else. I don't use Uber and Lyft apps, I don't listen to music
via Spotify etc., I even don't own a mobile phone at all. I'm using an
iPadPro, but it is used for audio productions and should be used for
drawing in the future, too. I already own an Apple Pencil 2 , but had
no time to draw until now. And no, I don't use the Apple Cloud. Google
is the devil, but there are way more serious issues regarding Internet
access than Google.

Apropos dealing with the devil:
Roger's Guitar Solo - American Dad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZPT103UUDs

I'm serious about IceCat. I've got IceCat installed on Ubuntu and Arch
Linux. It's easy to do, even while it is not available by official
Ubuntu repositories. Test using IceCat only and you'll notice a lot more
issues than a few trackers and Google thingies. That Google is that bad,
because it is that successful, doesn't mean that all the other are less
evil than Google or that it's less dangerous, if you only ban Google
from your live.

Google is evil, but don't focus too much just on Google. Have a look
around! I'm not talking about Instagram and all that crap, nobody
should use anyway. IceCat has got valid reasons to make access to some
websites impossible, websites you consider to be friendly, no Google
involved.


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Re: Outlook installation

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Peter Flynn
On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 at 23:33, Peter Flynn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think 2007 was the first to use OOXML and save as .docx

Yes. That's the only XML format I've seen emitted by Office.
LibreOffice has its own, of course.

I don't mind XML but I do not like these internally-zipped formats.
With the old formats, you could at least recover raw text from a
damaged file with tools such as the Unix ``strings'' command. With
compressed XML, files contain nothing but line noise.

> The 2003 copy handed out (all 8 CDs :-) to delegates at the XML
> Conference in Philadelphia used WordML and saved a .xml file, but
> perhaps that was a preview, not the live 2003 release.

I haven't looked at any preview releases or anything, so it could be.
I have deployed Office 2003 in production and it defaults to the
standard DOC, XLS, PPT etc. file formats of older versions.

I don't like the textured toolbars but it's straightforward to turn
off the self-customising menus etc. It also uses "wizards" in place of
dialog boxes for some configuration, which is irritating. Those trends
started with Office XP, which has nothing at all to offer.

Office 2000 works fine, has proper dialogs throughout, irritating but
tolerable flat toolbars, and Word 97 has nested tables -- a table
inside a cell of another table -- and highlighting. I don't need
either but others' files contain them and don't render quite right in
Word 97, and LibreOffice can't help.

So Office 97 isn't ideal but it does all I need and more, it's small
and fast, and while it's not great for interworking with newer
versions, as I solely originate content on my Linux machines, it's
fine for me.

But for a project 2y ago, I needed support for huge files -- circa 1GB
file sizes -- and a 1080*1900 portrait screen, which forced me into
using a newer version.

> Moot anyway, as I threw out the disks after testing the XML software
> (mostly rubbish because it only worked with W3C XSDs and assumed you
> were using XML for rectangular data, whereas real-life XML is text
> documents).

:-D

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Re: Outlook installation

Mike Marchywka
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
Thanks, I started to try Thunderbird see comments below. I'm top posting because for a while now
hotmail refuses to mark reply text in any menu I can find. So, I've been using a script- I copy
the original to clip board, run my script and it writes the marked text back out to paste into homtail
web form. I guess Ideally I'd just like to type "mail" get a bunch of headers and if I am forced to
read hi-tech html mail pipe the message into lynx lol. Thunderbird did use about 30 percent of my
600 or mbytes of RAM so it is still a lot - even the gmail webpage was about 200 or so.

While piping into lynx may be a little much, I have noticed a lot of web math now looks like latex.
If you must send fancy email latex may be nice, no idea if there is now a mime type :)
Compiling a latex document is a lot more effort AFAICT than displaying html but it is easier to make
it human readable.

I tried Thunderbird with two accounts I don't care about - a gmail and yahoo account. The gmail account
appears ok but the thing crashes when I tried to add the yahoo account - sent crash report fwiw.

My only real concern is deleting messages on the hotmail server and IIRC there is some setting for
that when I setup Outlook connector. All I really want to do is download the old messages from hotmail into a flat file
that I can search with grep or index myself and then do incremental downloads. Although having a single
client with single interface that works would help a lot but I'm only using one account now  it
does not have basic features in places I can find.

note new address
 Mike Marchywka 306 Charles Cox Drive Canton, GA 30115
 2295 Collinworth  Drive Marietta GA 30062.  formerly 487 Salem Woods Drive Marietta GA 30067 404-788-1216 (C)<- leave message 989-348-4796 (P)<- emergency


________________________________________
From: ubuntu-users <[hidden email]> on behalf of Liam Proven <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2019 6:40 AM
To: Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions
Subject: Re: Outlook installation

(Please could you trim your replies a bit more? It would *really* help
readability...)

On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 at 12:11, Mike Marchywka <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Is there anything I can use to download my hotmail? I've recently become
> aware that hotmail uses about 200-300M just to display maybe 50 text subject
> line in chromium even before spawning off another 100-200M of ad subframes.
> On a system with less than a Gb of memory this means nothing runs. I guess I could
> just say I need more memory but it is annoying not having any idea what it could possibly
> do usefully with all that memory especially when the "mail" command and text ads would
> work better. I have an old 'dohs install with outlook 2007 and "outlook connector" and
> want to download all my mail but it never seems to work reliably.

Sure, the settings are widely publicised:

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/oemail-oapps/imap-smtp-servers-for-hotmailcom/76e2f1b6-b01d-4686-9640-5760c322063e

This one also reminds you that you need to enable IMAP/POP3 access
inside Hotmail itself first:

https://www.betterhostreview.com/hotmail-pop-imap-smtp-settings.html

Or:

https://www.limilabs.com/blog/hotmail-imap-pop3-smtp-settings

I just Googled "hotmail imap settings".

Me personally, I have Gmail retrieve my Hotmail (and Yahoo mail) into
labelled folders using POP3. This means 2 levels of spam filtering,
another bonus.

Then on my Mac, the default Mail.app synchs my Gmail inbox to a local
copy in case of disaster...

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Re: Outlook installation

Liam Proven
On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 at 15:10, Mike Marchywka <[hidden email]> wrote:

>  I guess Ideally I'd just like to type "mail" get a bunch of headers and if I am forced to
> read hi-tech html mail pipe the message into lynx lol.

Try Muitt. Sounds like your sort of thing.

http://www.mutt.org/

The newer version is Neomutt:

https://neomutt.org/

Both are in the Ubuntu repos, I think.

You can manually quote in Hotmail. In Settings tell it to use plain
text, turn off the formatting toolbar options and enable th "use plain
text" button.

Then you need to Select All, which reveals the quoted text, then
manually insert the ">" symbols and bottom-post your reply. Clunky but
doable.

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Re: Outlook installation

Liam Proven
On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 at 15:38, Liam Proven <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> You can manually quote in Hotmail.

Here's one I just did as a proof of concept (below sig).

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---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Liam Proven <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 at 15:37
Subject: Re: Test
To: Liam Proven <[hidden email]>


> From: Liam Proven <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 8:10 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Test
>
> Ping

Reply

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Re: Outlook installation

Mike Marchywka
In reply to this post by Liam Proven

IIRC I have tried mutt before and may try it again, at the time however I'm not sure why I stopped.

I played with some of the hotmail options as you suggest but my script solution is easier
and I can customise it and make it stable or use it elsewhere. I could even use it for sig
files or extract and save the text etc.  This has actually become almost a standard operating
procedure with browsers. For example, it I'm trying to find bibtex after deciding I want
to reference an article currently on my browser, I copy the URL and send it to a script
to find the bibtex for that article. This could just mean extracting a doi from the link
and fetching from crossref of scraping through the file or page looking for either a doi
or other bibtex source. I think there are plugins or something that act similarly but
writing scripts has been educational and I think useful.


________________________________________
From: ubuntu-users <[hidden email]> on behalf of Liam Proven <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 9:38 AM
To: Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions
Subject: Re: Outlook installation

On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 at 15:10, Mike Marchywka <[hidden email]> wrote:

>  I guess Ideally I'd just like to type "mail" get a bunch of headers and if I am forced to
> read hi-tech html mail pipe the message into lynx lol.

Try Muitt. Sounds like your sort of thing.

http://www.mutt.org/

The newer version is Neomutt:

https://neomutt.org/

Both are in the Ubuntu repos, I think.

You can manually quote in Hotmail. In Settings tell it to use plain
text, turn off the formatting toolbar options and enable th "use plain
text" button.

Then you need to Select All, which reveals the quoted text, then
manually insert the ">" symbols and bottom-post your reply. Clunky but
doable.

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Re: Outlook installation

Liam Proven
On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 at 16:08, Mike Marchywka <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> IIRC I have tried mutt before and may try it again, at the time however I'm not sure why I stopped.

Mutt hasn't seen any big improvements in a while, I believe. There has
been some controversy over whether Neomutt is a fork or the official
future version. AIUI there are a few config-file differences and the
default behaviour may not be identical, but it can be configured to
be.

There's been a small argument in the openSUSE world because Neomutt
has now replaced Mutt in the default Mutt package. A few users were
very unhappy, but when they were told how to configure Neomutt to
behave exactly the same as Mutt, they were happy.

It certainly seems to be the console/text-mode email client of choice
for all the hardcore techies I know. They say things like "who needs
webmail when I can ssh into my box and do all my mail as usual with
Mutt?"

I am a decadent GUI user myself. I have sold my soul to Google. I
still trust Google more than MS (and Apple more than Google).

> I played with some of the hotmail options as you suggest but my script solution is easier
> and I can customise it and make it stable or use it elsewhere.

He said, top-posting. :-D

Mutt can send and receive through Hotmail.

Inbound

Server: imap-mail.outlook.com.
SSL: true-implicit.
Port: 993 (default)
User: [hidden email]

Outbound

Server: smtp-mail.outlook.com.
SSL: true-explicit.
Port: 587 (default)
User: [hidden email]


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Re: Outlook installation

Mike Marchywka
Thanks. I decided to try neomutt with gmail first at it looked simple but it would not login.
 Instead of cursing at it I logged into gmail which proudly told me
and my other account it had blocked the insecure app that had my correct password arrrgh. I guess I can find the way to turn that off but  another wild goose chase...

Usually by the time I get through all the security features I'm too tired and disgusted to make sure anything
 secure....  At least with the hard disk thrashing around I can hear progress being made lol.




note new address
 Mike Marchywka 306 Charles Cox Drive Canton, GA 30115
 2295 Collinworth  Drive Marietta GA 30062.  formerly 487 Salem Woods Drive Marietta GA 30067 404-788-1216 (C)<- leave message 989-348-4796 (P)<- emergency


________________________________________
From: ubuntu-users <[hidden email]> on behalf of Liam Proven <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 10:18 AM
To: Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions
Subject: Re: Outlook installation

On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 at 16:08, Mike Marchywka <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> IIRC I have tried mutt before and may try it again, at the time however I'm not sure why I stopped.

Mutt hasn't seen any big improvements in a while, I believe. There has
been some controversy over whether Neomutt is a fork or the official
future version. AIUI there are a few config-file differences and the
default behaviour may not be identical, but it can be configured to
be.

There's been a small argument in the openSUSE world because Neomutt
has now replaced Mutt in the default Mutt package. A few users were
very unhappy, but when they were told how to configure Neomutt to
behave exactly the same as Mutt, they were happy.

It certainly seems to be the console/text-mode email client of choice
for all the hardcore techies I know. They say things like "who needs
webmail when I can ssh into my box and do all my mail as usual with
Mutt?"

I am a decadent GUI user myself. I have sold my soul to Google. I
still trust Google more than MS (and Apple more than Google).

> I played with some of the hotmail options as you suggest but my script solution is easier
> and I can customise it and make it stable or use it elsewhere.

He said, top-posting. :-D

Mutt can send and receive through Hotmail.

Inbound

Server: imap-mail.outlook.com.
SSL: true-implicit.
Port: 993 (default)
User: [hidden email]

Outbound

Server: smtp-mail.outlook.com.
SSL: true-explicit.
Port: 587 (default)
User: [hidden email]


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Re: Outlook installation

Liam Proven
On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 at 17:07, Mike Marchywka <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thanks. I decided to try neomutt with gmail first at it looked simple but it would not login.
>  Instead of cursing at it I logged into gmail which proudly told me
> and my other account it had blocked the insecure app that had my correct password arrrgh. I guess I can find the way to turn that off but  another wild goose chase...

I've had that.

Hilariously, Gmail treats Gmail as a "less secure app" and to have
Gmail account #1 collect mail from Gmail account #2 you have to enable
"less secure app" access in Gmail a/c #2.

Here's how to turn it off:

https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/6010255?hl=en

Direct link:

https://myaccount.google.com/lesssecureapps

> Usually by the time I get through all the security features I'm too tired and disgusted to make sure anything
>  secure....  At least with the hard disk thrashing around I can hear progress being made lol.

Remember, Google is your friend.  Don't go hunting through settings
dialogs. Google first.

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Re: Outlook installation

Mike Marchywka
Thanks its fetching the headers now. I'll have to see if google sent my mom a note
telling her what I did lol.

Besides google being your friend, I have found that source code is often a better
documentation source than google even with some excellent forums like the overflow/exchange
series. If i really wanted to know what any of these things are doing I can build them and profile.
I'm not going to build a browser on this machine but neomutt is possible.

And if I really want to, I guess I can make up a mime type for my own ideas  and
test it with local builds :) Curious now what is involved in rendering a latex document
in email... That sounds a lot worse than html but again the source is almost human readable.



note new address
 Mike Marchywka 306 Charles Cox Drive Canton, GA 30115
 2295 Collinworth  Drive Marietta GA 30062.  formerly 487 Salem Woods Drive Marietta GA 30067 404-788-1216 (C)<- leave message 989-348-4796 (P)<- emergency


________________________________________
From: ubuntu-users <[hidden email]> on behalf of Liam Proven <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 11:28 AM
To: Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions
Subject: Re: Outlook installation

On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 at 17:07, Mike Marchywka <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thanks. I decided to try neomutt with gmail first at it looked simple but it would not login.
>  Instead of cursing at it I logged into gmail which proudly told me
> and my other account it had blocked the insecure app that had my correct password arrrgh. I guess I can find the way to turn that off but  another wild goose chase...

I've had that.

Hilariously, Gmail treats Gmail as a "less secure app" and to have
Gmail account #1 collect mail from Gmail account #2 you have to enable
"less secure app" access in Gmail a/c #2.

Here's how to turn it off:

https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/6010255?hl=en

Direct link:

https://myaccount.google.com/lesssecureapps

> Usually by the time I get through all the security features I'm too tired and disgusted to make sure anything
>  secure....  At least with the hard disk thrashing around I can hear progress being made lol.

Remember, Google is your friend.  Don't go hunting through settings
dialogs. Google first.

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Re: Outlook installation

Liam Proven
On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 at 20:51, Mike Marchywka <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thanks its fetching the headers now. I'll have to see if google sent my mom a note
> telling her what I did lol.

:-D

> Besides google being your friend, I have found that source code is often a better
> documentation source than google even with some excellent forums like the overflow/exchange
> series. If i really wanted to know what any of these things are doing I can build them and profile.
> I'm not going to build a browser on this machine but neomutt is possible.

If you can read it. Mostly, I can't. C-like syntax is now the most
popular kind, and I have always found it impenetrable.

Python is better but all the OOPS stuff blows my mind. :-(

> And if I really want to, I guess I can make up a mime type for my own ideas  and
> test it with local builds :) Curious now what is involved in rendering a latex document
> in email... That sounds a lot worse than html but again the source is almost human readable.

Augh! Rather thee than me.

AsciiDoc is OK. I like MediaWiki markup. I'm looking into Org Mode.

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Re: Outlook installation

Peter Flynn
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
On 11/04/2019 08:34, Liam Proven wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 at 23:33, Peter Flynn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I think 2007 was the first to use OOXML and save as .docx
>
> Yes. That's the only XML format I've seen emitted by Office.
> LibreOffice has its own, of course.

WordML was slightly different from OOXML. The period during which the
save format was a plain .xml file with embedded Base64-encoded images
was mercifully short.

> I don't mind XML but I do not like these internally-zipped formats.
> With the old formats, you could at least recover raw text from a
> damaged file with tools such as the Unix ``strings'' command. With
> compressed XML, files contain nothing but line noise.

I don't see the problem, I'm afraid. Unzip a .docx file and you have the
XML right there. Extraction of the unmarked text is trivial:

   unzip -p file.docx word/document.xml | sed -e "s/<[^>]*>//g"

(Better to use proper XML utilities such as LTXML2, but OOXML is unique
among document formats in not using white-space in element content, so
there are usually no newlines over which start-tags might have been split.)

> I have deployed Office 2003 in production and it defaults to the
> standard DOC, XLS, PPT etc. file formats of older versions.

What we were handed out must have been the pre-release of whatever
followed.

I can't imagine the horror of actually having to use a wordprocessor for
doing actual writing, though. I'm a plaintext person.

P

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Re: Outlook installation

Mike Marchywka
In reply to this post by Liam Proven

At first yahoo was very slow apparently because I left in some gmail folders when
modfiying the config file but it seems good now. I probably want something like
isync however, that and mbsync seem to be in the Beaver repo, to download
everything for a local copy without deleting from server. Not sure
what other things may exist.

http://isync.sourceforge.net/

note new address
 Mike Marchywka 306 Charles Cox Drive Canton, GA 30115
 2295 Collinworth  Drive Marietta GA 30062.  formerly 487 Salem Woods Drive Marietta GA 30067 404-788-1216 (C)<- leave message 989-348-4796 (P)<- emergency


________________________________________
From: ubuntu-users <[hidden email]> on behalf of Liam Proven <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 4:42 PM
To: Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions
Subject: Re: Outlook installation

On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 at 20:51, Mike Marchywka <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thanks its fetching the headers now. I'll have to see if google sent my mom a note
> telling her what I did lol.

:-D

> Besides google being your friend, I have found that source code is often a better
> documentation source than google even with some excellent forums like the overflow/exchange
> series. If i really wanted to know what any of these things are doing I can build them and profile.
> I'm not going to build a browser on this machine but neomutt is possible.

If you can read it. Mostly, I can't. C-like syntax is now the most
popular kind, and I have always found it impenetrable.

Python is better but all the OOPS stuff blows my mind. :-(

> And if I really want to, I guess I can make up a mime type for my own ideas  and
> test it with local builds :) Curious now what is involved in rendering a latex document
> in email... That sounds a lot worse than html but again the source is almost human readable.

Augh! Rather thee than me.

AsciiDoc is OK. I like MediaWiki markup. I'm looking into Org Mode.

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Re: Outlook installation

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Peter Flynn
On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 at 22:48, Peter Flynn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> WordML was slightly different from OOXML. The period during which the
> save format was a plain .xml file with embedded Base64-encoded images
> was mercifully short.

I did a little Googling and you're right -- apparently Office 2003
does have XML support, and it's a pre-OOXML definition. It's not the
default format, though,  and I've actually never seen it. But I only
have Word installed, nothing else.

> I don't see the problem, I'm afraid. Unzip a .docx file

I repeat myself with emphasis:

> > With the old formats, you could at least recover raw text from a
> > *damaged file* with tools such as the Unix ``strings'' command. With

I don't care what you can do with an intact, working file. So long as
it works, all is fine. It's when it doesn't work and the customer gets
a corrupted file that I often got called in.

A corrupted Zip is junk. A corrupted .DOC can have the raw text
extracted, simply and easily.

The #1 way of recovering a corrupted MS Office file is to open it in
LibreOffice, but there were about 2 decades of doing this when
LibreOffice didn't exist and I had to do it by hand.

> (Better to use proper XML utilities such as LTXML2, but OOXML is unique
> among document formats in not using white-space in element content, so
> there are usually no newlines over which start-tags might have been split.)

As I said: before the tech-writing stage of my career, I almost never
touched XML directly. Happier times.

> I can't imagine the horror of actually having to use a wordprocessor for
> doing actual writing, though. I'm a plaintext person.

I only use Word for 1 thing. The outliner. I seem to be the only
person left who knows it's there.

No other editor in the world offers me the power of the Word outliner.

Trying to edit text -- plain, formatted, XML, whatever -- in a flat
text editor is _painful_ to me, and nobody understands what we have
lost. Outliners were _everywhere_ in the 1980s and early 1990s. The
most successful pre-MS Office presentation package for the Mac was
MORE! which was an enhanced outliner.

I can't described how brain-damaged and broken flat editors are to
someone who doesn't know how to use an outliner. All I can offer is
approximate comparisons.

Say you are used to a powerful editor such as Vim or Emacs, or even
Gedit or Notepad++. And I take it off you and instead I give you:

copy con: file.txt

That is what using a flat editor feels like when compared to an
outliner. I have been deprived of the single most powerful editing
tool there is -- structure -- and it doesn't matter how many macros,
regexes, and fancy editor syntax. If the file is flat, it's crippled.

Formatting, schmormatting. I don't care. It does that. I don't use it.
Mostly all I need is bold, underline, italic and unformatted for code
snippets. Markdown does most of what I need.

But without folding, without hiding, without collapsing down to
headers, navigating, expanding, unfolding, etc. they are all just toys
to me.

Outliners don't make a text file 3-dimensional, but it's a sort of 2.5
D. There's structure and it helps.

It would be _ideal_ for HTML and XML. But nothing understands it.
Oxygen has a very clumsy block-hiding function but it's hopelessly
clumsy. It needs to be in-stream, in file, as part of the document or
it's worthless to me.


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Re: Outlook installation

Tony Arnold-3
Liam,

On Fri, 2019-04-12 at 09:49 +0200, Liam Proven wrote:

> I only use Word for 1 thing. The outliner. I seem to be the only
> person left who knows it's there.

Have you tried the Navigator in LibreOffice? I've not explored it
fully, but it does at least allow you to move section/subsections
around. Not sure about collapsing etc., as I don't have a sufficiently
complex document to try it out at the moment.

Regards,
Tony.
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Re: Outlook installation

Liam Proven
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 at 10:10, Tony Arnold <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Have you tried the Navigator in LibreOffice? I've not explored it
> fully, but it does at least allow you to move section/subsections
> around. Not sure about collapsing etc., as I don't have a sufficiently
> complex document to try it out at the moment.

Yes. It's beyond useless. It's like going from MS-DOS 1 Edlin to
MS-DOS 2 Edlin. There's no measurable change in utility.


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Re: Outlook installation

Peter Flynn
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
On 12/04/2019 08:49, Liam Proven wrote:> I repeat myself with emphasis:
>
>>> With the old formats, you could at least recover raw text from a
>>> *damaged file* with tools such as the Unix ``strings'' command. With

Sorry, I missed the damaged bit. I'm lucky, I've never had anyone come
to me with a corrupted Word file since the days of Win95.

> A corrupted Zip is junk. A corrupted .DOC can have the raw text
> extracted, simply and easily.

What there is of it. But for me this is an extreme edge case.

> The #1 way of recovering a corrupted MS Office file is to open it in
> LibreOffice, but there were about 2 decades of doing this when
> LibreOffice didn't exist and I had to do it by hand.

By hand is usually better.

> I only use Word for 1 thing. The outliner. I seem to be the only
> person left who knows it's there.

:-) org-mode

> No other editor in the world offers me the power of the Word outliner.

I remember using outliners in the days of WordPerfect. Even their ill-fated
version for Linux had it.

> Trying to edit text -- plain, formatted, XML, whatever -- in a flat
> text editor is _painful_ to me, and nobody understands what we have
> lost.

Most XML editors have the equivalent, which is to show a structure view,
to whatever selected depth you want, with each item openable by clicking
on the +. But I agree, most writers have never seen an outline.

> That is what using a flat editor feels like when compared to an
> outliner. I have been deprived of the single most powerful editing
> tool there is -- structure -- and it doesn't matter how many macros,
> regexes, and fancy editor syntax. If the file is flat, it's crippled.

Yep, that's why outline views are essential. Even LaTeX editors have
them nowadays.

> It would be _ideal_ for HTML and XML. But nothing understands it.
> Oxygen has a very clumsy block-hiding function but it's hopelessly
> clumsy. It needs to be in-stream, in file, as part of the document or
> it's worthless to me.

I haven't used oXygen for a while. Fortunately their people are *very*
responsive so I'll see what they say. HTML has no structure anyway, so
it would be fairly useless.

P

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