Re: Fwd: Proposal: Let's drop i386

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Re: Fwd: Proposal: Let's drop i386

Bas G. Roufs - in English
Hello Valorie and Everybody.

> .... discontinuing the i386 images. .....
> .... Kubuntu to stop issuing i386 images.

About two - three weeks ago, I have downloaded via K Torrent two ISO images
from Kubuntu 18.04 LTS: amd64 and i386. The i386 computer, an Asus Eee PC I
have been lending the first weeks after loosing my previous Lenovo X220, was a
useful "hardware backup" - however, terribly slow. That's why, I am happy to
have again another X220 - a 64 bits PC with 8 GB internal memory and an i5
processor.  It works really well with Kubuntu 18.04 LTS - the speed is
perfectly acceptable.

From this X220, K Torrent has been "seeding"/uploading both ISO's - the i386
one as well as the amd64 version.  

From the i386 version, only 21,53 MiB has been seeded/ uploaded - a tiny bit
more than 1% share ratio related to 1.77 GiB - the total size of the i386 ISO,
which has been "seeding"  during 16.5 hours. There are long hours in which
that version is not' seeding"/uploading at all.

From the amd64 version, there is an ISO of 1.74 GiB. During about 50 hours (2
days) , 1.91 GiB has been uploaded - this delivers a share ratio of 110%. This
amd64 version is constantly "seeding".

Taking into account my experience as summarised here above, I can imagine the
decision to discontinue the i386 ISO's. However, it could be good to clearly
mention that decision at the Kubuntu.org website and elsewhere.

Yours.

Bas G. Roufs.

 


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Re: Fwd: Proposal: Let's drop i386

charlie
i think it's a good thing to see i386 getting dropped because that kind
of hardware's old and obsolete anyway. 64 bit computers are cheaper now
and shouldn't be too much of a burden for anyone to acquire something. i
scored a Dell Precision T1600 workstation for $35 about a month ago and
it's a 64 bit quad core Xeon processor. just saying.


On 05/16/2018 04:17 PM, Valorie Zimmerman wrote:

> Hello folks, I'm forwarding the following email to Ubuntu-devel ML to
> explain the thinking on the part of the Ubuntu developers as to why
> they are discontinuing the i386 images. For us, this would mean that
> the 18.04 LTS is the last i386 ISO that we will be publishing. I'm
> reluctant to do this, however, I do not have the time or technical
> knowledge required to do this on my own, and the Kubuntu Devels want
> Kubuntu to stop issuing i386 images.
>
> Therefore, we are going to do that. For those of you who still want
> and need i386, you will have 3 years of support from us on the LTS.
> This means that when we're ready for the point releases (18,04.1, 2
> etc.) I will still be asking for testers and expect you i386 people to
> step up and do that.
>
> For now the i386 *packages* in the archive are not going away.
> However, I think the clock is ticking for them as well. On the other
> hand, this will mean more attention from devels on the newer ARM stuff
> which will be useful for those with Raspi or little ARM
> laptop/netbooks.
>
> Discussion is welcome, but I'm afraid that the decision has been
> taken, and we'll be moving ahead to 18.10 without i386.
>
> Valorie
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Bryan Quigley <[hidden email]>
> Date: Wed, May 9, 2018 at 1:07 PM
> Subject: Proposal: Let's drop i386
> To: Ubuntu Developers <[hidden email]>, Ubuntu Core
> developers <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Dimitri John Ledkov <[hidden email]>
>
> Hello,
>
> Less and less non-amd64-compatible i386 hardware is available for
> consumers to buy today from anything but computer part recycling
> centers. The last of these machines were manufactured over a decade
> ago, and support from an increasing number of upstream projects has
> ended.
>
> Ubuntu and flavors just completed the 18.04 release cycle. This
> released version will either be supported until 2021 or 2023,
> depending on the product, team, and willingness to support it. At that
> point in time, the majority of these machines are approaching two
> decades old.
>
>>> Previous 2016 thread: And in 2018, the question will come if we can effectively provide security support on i386.
> We can't.  Machines running i386 Ubuntu which are capable of running
> amd64 Ubuntu are vulnerable to the critical Meltdown vulnerability
> where they wouldn't be if they were running amd64. (Some actual i386
> hardware simply isn't vulnerable, but some is).
>
> We still have a relatively high number if i386 downloads but that
> doesn't mean users machines are not capable of amd64. For the flavors
> remaining today on i386 here are some i386 to amd64 ratios for 18.04:
>
> Lubuntu cdimage - 0.87
> Lubuntu tracker - 0.64
> Lubuntu error (pcmanfm) - 0.11
> Xubuntu cdimage - 0.49
> Xubuntu tracker -  0.30
> Xubuntu error (thunar) - 0.10
> Kylin tracker - 0.30
> Kylin error (engrampa) - 0.10
> Kubuntu cdimage - 0.14
> Kubuntu tracker - 0.12
> Kubuntu error (kinit) - 0.07
>
> The data retrieved from cdimage is for a limited time period on May
> 7th. All cdimage statistics included many hundreds to thousands of
> downloads (except Ubuntu Kylin due to it using it's own CDN, so not
> being included here). The torrent tracker results are available here:
> http://torrent.ubuntu.com:6969/.
> The error tracker statistics come from comparing top bugs shared
> between i386 and amd64 over last week. Bugs that affect multiple
> flavors are not included.
> It's not fully understood why there is a large discrepancy between the
> error tracker and other sources - but it's possible apport doesn't
> work as well in low memory.
>
> With Ubuntu MATE, Ubuntu Budgie, and Ubuntu Studio joining Ubuntu
> Desktop and Server in not offering i386 support in order to focus
> their efforts, and these statistics in mind, we (flavors) should all
> join them. Now is the ideal time to do so, because it's before the
> Cosmic cycle is really under way, and if support were continued for
> i386, we don't want users to meet a dead end with respect to upgrade
> paths, and would support it until 20.04 (which means either five or
> seven more years of i386). Users still have the support cycle of 18.04
> to use their machines and get full support, so these machines will
> still be able to function. But with no new machines being
> manufactured, we have to deprecate support at some point.
>
> The first step would be to all agree on dropping images/installers but
> we should keep the end goal of dropping the port in mind ideally soon
> as well.
>
> On the list of known blockers for removing the i386 port are Steam and
> Wine. Solus' snapped Steam is progressing nicely and Steam deb is
> difficult to maintain as is [See removal bug]. That leaves coming up
> with a good way forward for Wine.
>
> Thanks!
> Simon Quigley
> Bryan Quigley
>
> [2016 email thread]
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2016-June/039420.html
> (was Installation Media and supportability of i386 in 18.04 LTS Re:
> Ubuntu Desktop on i386)
> [removal bug] https://pad.lv/1759715
>
> --
> ubuntu-devel mailing list
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> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
>


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Re: Fwd: Proposal: Let's drop i386

Accessys@smart.net

unfortunately I don't have a spare 386 computer to test with but a lot of
people with disabilities are using linux and I push Kubuntu because of
financial issues many are using second or even third hand computer
equipment which often is still 32bit.
  so is catch 22 the people testing don't have the older equip to test but
a lot of the older equip is being used by people who can't afford anything
newer.

Bob



On Fri, 18 May 2018, charlie wrote:

> Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 09:37:10 -0700
> From: charlie <[hidden email]>
> Reply-To: Kubuntu user technical support <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Fwd: Proposal: Let's drop i386
>
> i think it's a good thing to see i386 getting dropped because that kind of
> hardware's old and obsolete anyway. 64 bit computers are cheaper now and
> shouldn't be too much of a burden for anyone to acquire something. i scored a
> Dell Precision T1600 workstation for $35 about a month ago and it's a 64 bit
> quad core Xeon processor. just saying.
>
>
> On 05/16/2018 04:17 PM, Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
>> Hello folks, I'm forwarding the following email to Ubuntu-devel ML to
>> explain the thinking on the part of the Ubuntu developers as to why
>> they are discontinuing the i386 images. For us, this would mean that
>> the 18.04 LTS is the last i386 ISO that we will be publishing. I'm
>> reluctant to do this, however, I do not have the time or technical
>> knowledge required to do this on my own, and the Kubuntu Devels want
>> Kubuntu to stop issuing i386 images.
>>
>> Therefore, we are going to do that. For those of you who still want
>> and need i386, you will have 3 years of support from us on the LTS.
>> This means that when we're ready for the point releases (18,04.1, 2
>> etc.) I will still be asking for testers and expect you i386 people to
>> step up and do that.
>>
>> For now the i386 *packages* in the archive are not going away.
>> However, I think the clock is ticking for them as well. On the other
>> hand, this will mean more attention from devels on the newer ARM stuff
>> which will be useful for those with Raspi or little ARM
>> laptop/netbooks.
>>
>> Discussion is welcome, but I'm afraid that the decision has been
>> taken, and we'll be moving ahead to 18.10 without i386.
>>
>> Valorie
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Bryan Quigley <[hidden email]>
>> Date: Wed, May 9, 2018 at 1:07 PM
>> Subject: Proposal: Let's drop i386
>> To: Ubuntu Developers <[hidden email]>, Ubuntu Core
>> developers <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: Dimitri John Ledkov <[hidden email]>
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Less and less non-amd64-compatible i386 hardware is available for
>> consumers to buy today from anything but computer part recycling
>> centers. The last of these machines were manufactured over a decade
>> ago, and support from an increasing number of upstream projects has
>> ended.
>>
>> Ubuntu and flavors just completed the 18.04 release cycle. This
>> released version will either be supported until 2021 or 2023,
>> depending on the product, team, and willingness to support it. At that
>> point in time, the majority of these machines are approaching two
>> decades old.
>>
>>>> Previous 2016 thread: And in 2018, the question will come if we can
>>>> effectively provide security support on i386.
>> We can't.  Machines running i386 Ubuntu which are capable of running
>> amd64 Ubuntu are vulnerable to the critical Meltdown vulnerability
>> where they wouldn't be if they were running amd64. (Some actual i386
>> hardware simply isn't vulnerable, but some is).
>>
>> We still have a relatively high number if i386 downloads but that
>> doesn't mean users machines are not capable of amd64. For the flavors
>> remaining today on i386 here are some i386 to amd64 ratios for 18.04:
>>
>> Lubuntu cdimage - 0.87
>> Lubuntu tracker - 0.64
>> Lubuntu error (pcmanfm) - 0.11
>> Xubuntu cdimage - 0.49
>> Xubuntu tracker -  0.30
>> Xubuntu error (thunar) - 0.10
>> Kylin tracker - 0.30
>> Kylin error (engrampa) - 0.10
>> Kubuntu cdimage - 0.14
>> Kubuntu tracker - 0.12
>> Kubuntu error (kinit) - 0.07
>>
>> The data retrieved from cdimage is for a limited time period on May
>> 7th. All cdimage statistics included many hundreds to thousands of
>> downloads (except Ubuntu Kylin due to it using it's own CDN, so not
>> being included here). The torrent tracker results are available here:
>> http://torrent.ubuntu.com:6969/.
>> The error tracker statistics come from comparing top bugs shared
>> between i386 and amd64 over last week. Bugs that affect multiple
>> flavors are not included.
>> It's not fully understood why there is a large discrepancy between the
>> error tracker and other sources - but it's possible apport doesn't
>> work as well in low memory.
>>
>> With Ubuntu MATE, Ubuntu Budgie, and Ubuntu Studio joining Ubuntu
>> Desktop and Server in not offering i386 support in order to focus
>> their efforts, and these statistics in mind, we (flavors) should all
>> join them. Now is the ideal time to do so, because it's before the
>> Cosmic cycle is really under way, and if support were continued for
>> i386, we don't want users to meet a dead end with respect to upgrade
>> paths, and would support it until 20.04 (which means either five or
>> seven more years of i386). Users still have the support cycle of 18.04
>> to use their machines and get full support, so these machines will
>> still be able to function. But with no new machines being
>> manufactured, we have to deprecate support at some point.
>>
>> The first step would be to all agree on dropping images/installers but
>> we should keep the end goal of dropping the port in mind ideally soon
>> as well.
>>
>> On the list of known blockers for removing the i386 port are Steam and
>> Wine. Solus' snapped Steam is progressing nicely and Steam deb is
>> difficult to maintain as is [See removal bug]. That leaves coming up
>> with a good way forward for Wine.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Simon Quigley
>> Bryan Quigley
>>
>> [2016 email thread]
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2016-June/039420.html
>> (was Installation Media and supportability of i386 in 18.04 LTS Re:
>> Ubuntu Desktop on i386)
>> [removal bug] https://pad.lv/1759715
>>
>> --
>> ubuntu-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
>>
>
>
> --
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> [hidden email]
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
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Re: Fwd: Proposal: Let's drop i386

Robert Charbonneau

The i386 platform is obviously becoming antiquated, and even those who are still on that platform will have access to the 18.04 image.  By the time the next release of *buntu comes about, there will be vastly fewer i386 systems (they won't run forever.)  Anyone still running an i386 processor in the next 18 months will *still* have access to that 18.04 image and the onus is on everyone to plan an upgrade to the x64 platform prior to the next LTS (quite a ways away.)  I'm not sure the extra coordinated effort required to test on a platform which is easily considered substandard now makes much sense when PCs running such processors are becoming more and more rare as time goes on.


On 2018-05-18 12:52 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

unfortunately I don't have a spare 386 computer to test with but a lot of people with disabilities are using linux and I push Kubuntu because of financial issues many are using second or even third hand computer equipment which often is still 32bit.
 so is catch 22 the people testing don't have the older equip to test but a lot of the older equip is being used by people who can't afford anything newer.

Bob



On Fri, 18 May 2018, charlie wrote:

Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 09:37:10 -0700
From: charlie [hidden email]
Reply-To: Kubuntu user technical support [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Fwd: Proposal: Let's drop i386

i think it's a good thing to see i386 getting dropped because that kind of hardware's old and obsolete anyway. 64 bit computers are cheaper now and shouldn't be too much of a burden for anyone to acquire something. i scored a Dell Precision T1600 workstation for $35 about a month ago and it's a 64 bit quad core Xeon processor. just saying.


On 05/16/2018 04:17 PM, Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
Hello folks, I'm forwarding the following email to Ubuntu-devel ML to
explain the thinking on the part of the Ubuntu developers as to why
they are discontinuing the i386 images. For us, this would mean that
the 18.04 LTS is the last i386 ISO that we will be publishing. I'm
reluctant to do this, however, I do not have the time or technical
knowledge required to do this on my own, and the Kubuntu Devels want
Kubuntu to stop issuing i386 images.

Therefore, we are going to do that. For those of you who still want
and need i386, you will have 3 years of support from us on the LTS.
This means that when we're ready for the point releases (18,04.1, 2
etc.) I will still be asking for testers and expect you i386 people to
step up and do that.

For now the i386 *packages* in the archive are not going away.
However, I think the clock is ticking for them as well. On the other
hand, this will mean more attention from devels on the newer ARM stuff
which will be useful for those with Raspi or little ARM
laptop/netbooks.

Discussion is welcome, but I'm afraid that the decision has been
taken, and we'll be moving ahead to 18.10 without i386.

Valorie


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bryan Quigley [hidden email]
Date: Wed, May 9, 2018 at 1:07 PM
Subject: Proposal: Let's drop i386
To: Ubuntu Developers [hidden email], Ubuntu Core
developers [hidden email]
Cc: Dimitri John Ledkov [hidden email]

Hello,

Less and less non-amd64-compatible i386 hardware is available for
consumers to buy today from anything but computer part recycling
centers. The last of these machines were manufactured over a decade
ago, and support from an increasing number of upstream projects has
ended.

Ubuntu and flavors just completed the 18.04 release cycle. This
released version will either be supported until 2021 or 2023,
depending on the product, team, and willingness to support it. At that
point in time, the majority of these machines are approaching two
decades old.

Previous 2016 thread: And in 2018, the question will come if we can effectively provide security support on i386.
We can't.  Machines running i386 Ubuntu which are capable of running
amd64 Ubuntu are vulnerable to the critical Meltdown vulnerability
where they wouldn't be if they were running amd64. (Some actual i386
hardware simply isn't vulnerable, but some is).

We still have a relatively high number if i386 downloads but that
doesn't mean users machines are not capable of amd64. For the flavors
remaining today on i386 here are some i386 to amd64 ratios for 18.04:

Lubuntu cdimage - 0.87
Lubuntu tracker - 0.64
Lubuntu error (pcmanfm) - 0.11
Xubuntu cdimage - 0.49
Xubuntu tracker -  0.30
Xubuntu error (thunar) - 0.10
Kylin tracker - 0.30
Kylin error (engrampa) - 0.10
Kubuntu cdimage - 0.14
Kubuntu tracker - 0.12
Kubuntu error (kinit) - 0.07

The data retrieved from cdimage is for a limited time period on May
7th. All cdimage statistics included many hundreds to thousands of
downloads (except Ubuntu Kylin due to it using it's own CDN, so not
being included here). The torrent tracker results are available here:
http://torrent.ubuntu.com:6969/.
The error tracker statistics come from comparing top bugs shared
between i386 and amd64 over last week. Bugs that affect multiple
flavors are not included.
It's not fully understood why there is a large discrepancy between the
error tracker and other sources - but it's possible apport doesn't
work as well in low memory.

With Ubuntu MATE, Ubuntu Budgie, and Ubuntu Studio joining Ubuntu
Desktop and Server in not offering i386 support in order to focus
their efforts, and these statistics in mind, we (flavors) should all
join them. Now is the ideal time to do so, because it's before the
Cosmic cycle is really under way, and if support were continued for
i386, we don't want users to meet a dead end with respect to upgrade
paths, and would support it until 20.04 (which means either five or
seven more years of i386). Users still have the support cycle of 18.04
to use their machines and get full support, so these machines will
still be able to function. But with no new machines being
manufactured, we have to deprecate support at some point.

The first step would be to all agree on dropping images/installers but
we should keep the end goal of dropping the port in mind ideally soon
as well.

On the list of known blockers for removing the i386 port are Steam and
Wine. Solus' snapped Steam is progressing nicely and Steam deb is
difficult to maintain as is [See removal bug]. That leaves coming up
with a good way forward for Wine.

Thanks!
Simon Quigley
Bryan Quigley

[2016 email thread]
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2016-June/039420.html
(was Installation Media and supportability of i386 in 18.04 LTS Re:
Ubuntu Desktop on i386)
[removal bug] https://pad.lv/1759715

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Re: Fwd: Proposal: Let's drop i386

Jerry Lapham-2
In reply to this post by Accessys@smart.net
On Friday, May 18, 2018 12:52:30 PM EDT [hidden email] wrote:

> unfortunately I don't have a spare 386 computer to test with but a lot of
> people with disabilities are using linux and I push Kubuntu because of
> financial issues many are using second or even third hand computer
> equipment which often is still 32bit.
>
>   so is catch 22 the people testing don't have the older equip to test but
>
> a lot of the older equip is being used by people who can't afford anything
> newer.

Aren't we missing the fact that it's not absolutely necessary to run the very
latest version?  If you're using old hardware, run the old version that's
already on it.

        -Jerry
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=============================================
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Re: Fwd: Proposal: Let's drop i386

Glenn Holmer-4
In reply to this post by Bas G. Roufs - in English
On 05/16/2018 06:17 PM, Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
> Hello folks, I'm forwarding the following email to Ubuntu-devel ML to
> explain the thinking on the part of the Ubuntu developers as to why
> they are discontinuing the i386 images. For us, this would mean that
> the 18.04 LTS is the last i386 ISO that we will be publishing.

I agree with the removal. At this point, i386 is a specialist platform
more suited to the retro community. People who still have i386 systems
(including two here in my lab) shouldn't be surprised if they need to
use specialized distros rather than the mainstream ones.

--
Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
"After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."

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