Recent Doc Team meeting - Poll idea (Do people really use computer-based help?)

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Recent Doc Team meeting - Poll idea (Do people really use computer-based help?)

Peter Matulis-5
Last Wednesday (May 7) we there was a Doc team meeting [1] and an idea
surfaced that an attempt be made to determine the general level of
readership/usage of the help/doc facility in Ubuntu (Desktop).
Including this facility involves participation in a rigid set of
development/packaging rules & schedule that may not be worth the trouble.

Preliminary poll:

<< Do people think conducting such a poll is worthwhile? >>

If so, we can distribute links to the questionnaire in all the usual places.

peter matulis

[1]: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/DocTeam

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Re: Recent Doc Team meeting - Poll idea (Do people really use computer-based help?)

Mauricio Tavares
On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Peter Matulis
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Last Wednesday (May 7) we there was a Doc team meeting [1] and an idea
> surfaced that an attempt be made to determine the general level of
> readership/usage of the help/doc facility in Ubuntu (Desktop).
> Including this facility involves participation in a rigid set of
> development/packaging rules & schedule that may not be worth the trouble.
>
> Preliminary poll:
>
> << Do people think conducting such a poll is worthwhile? >>
>
      I think that is a worthwhile pool. Personally I rely more on man
pages and the online docs. But that has to do with bad experiences
with the in-computer doc facilities; things can change.

> If so, we can distribute links to the questionnaire in all the usual places.
>
> peter matulis
>
> [1]: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/DocTeam
>
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Re: Recent Doc Team meeting - Poll idea (Do people really use computer-based help?)

Penelope Stowe
In reply to this post by Peter Matulis-5
On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Peter Matulis <[hidden email]> wrote:
Last Wednesday (May 7) we there was a Doc team meeting [1] and an idea
surfaced that an attempt be made to determine the general level of
readership/usage of the help/doc facility in Ubuntu (Desktop).
Including this facility involves participation in a rigid set of
development/packaging rules & schedule that may not be worth the trouble.

Preliminary poll:

<< Do people think conducting such a poll is worthwhile? >>


Who would targeted as responders to said poll? If you only poll current Ubuntu users, you're probably going to get a different answer than if you poll current users as well as trying to get answers from current Windows and MacOS users who could potentially use Ubuntu down the road. I've done informal polling of this exact question among people I know and there's definitely a difference between the people I know who use Ubuntu (who tend to be slightly more technologically savvy) and those who use Windows/MacOS, but are part of the stated target of making Ubuntu friendly to/usable by everyone. 

My opinion on whether a poll would be useful does depend on knowing who would be the target of such a poll. There are ways to get non-technical and non-Ubuntu users to answer a poll on this question. If there's no decided target, then I will give a longer explanation of my thoughts.

~Penelope


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Re: Recent Doc Team meeting - Poll idea (Do people really use computer-based help?)

Peter Matulis-5
On 05/09/2014 01:51 PM, Penelope Stowe wrote:

> On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Peter Matulis
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Last Wednesday (May 7) we there was a Doc team meeting [1] and an idea
>     surfaced that an attempt be made to determine the general level of
>     readership/usage of the help/doc facility in Ubuntu (Desktop).
>     Including this facility involves participation in a rigid set of
>     development/packaging rules & schedule that may not be worth the
>     trouble.
>
>     Preliminary poll:
>
>     << Do people think conducting such a poll is worthwhile? >>
>
>
> Who would targeted as responders to said poll? If you only poll current
> Ubuntu users, you're probably going to get a different answer than if
> you poll current users as well as trying to get answers from current
> Windows and MacOS users who could potentially use Ubuntu down the road.
> I've done informal polling of this exact question among people I know
> and there's definitely a difference between the people I know who use
> Ubuntu (who tend to be slightly more technologically savvy) and those
> who use Windows/MacOS, but are part of the stated target of making
> Ubuntu friendly to/usable by everyone.
>
> My opinion on whether a poll would be useful does depend on knowing who
> would be the target of such a poll. There are ways to get non-technical
> and non-Ubuntu users to answer a poll on this question. If there's no
> decided target, then I will give a longer explanation of my thoughts.

Thanks for your thoughts Penelope.

I think polling Ubuntu users is good enough since there are former
Windows/Mac users among them.  But you raise an interesting point:  do
we want to know whether a user will even *look* for in-computer help?
My original idea was to determine to what degree Ubuntu users first
*know* about it and, if so, whether they *use* it.

I would rather avoid a hypothetical question such as: "If you were an
Ubuntu user would you look for in-computer help?".

Thoughts?

peter matulis


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Re: Recent Doc Team meeting - Poll idea (Do people really use computer-based help?)

mh-dixon
My penny worth (as one who does not always think clearly) - I have used the in-computer help occasionally from day one and those I have "helped" have also - it has the advantage of being easily accessible, clearly organised and relatively universally applicable.  But that may only be another way of saying if alternatives were equally accessible and clearly organised and provided more information they might be more applicable.


From: Peter Matulis <[hidden email]>
To: Penelope Stowe <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]; Ubuntu <[hidden email]>; Ubuntu Doc <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, 9 May 2014, 21:14
Subject: Re: Recent Doc Team meeting - Poll idea (Do people really use computer-based help?)

On 05/09/2014 01:51 PM, Penelope Stowe wrote:

> On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Peter Matulis
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>    Last Wednesday (May 7) we there was a Doc team meeting [1] and an idea
>    surfaced that an attempt be made to determine the general level of
>    readership/usage of the help/doc facility in Ubuntu (Desktop).
>    Including this facility involves participation in a rigid set of
>    development/packaging rules & schedule that may not be worth the
>    trouble.
>
>    Preliminary poll:
>
>    << Do people think conducting such a poll is worthwhile? >>
>
>
> Who would targeted as responders to said poll? If you only poll current
> Ubuntu users, you're probably going to get a different answer than if
> you poll current users as well as trying to get answers from current
> Windows and MacOS users who could potentially use Ubuntu down the road.
> I've done informal polling of this exact question among people I know
> and there's definitely a difference between the people I know who use
> Ubuntu (who tend to be slightly more technologically savvy) and those
> who use Windows/MacOS, but are part of the stated target of making
> Ubuntu friendly to/usable by everyone.
>
> My opinion on whether a poll would be useful does depend on knowing who
> would be the target of such a poll. There are ways to get non-technical
> and non-Ubuntu users to answer a poll on this question. If there's no
> decided target, then I will give a longer explanation of my thoughts.

Thanks for your thoughts Penelope.

I think polling Ubuntu users is good enough since there are former
Windows/Mac users among them.  But you raise an interesting point:  do
we want to know whether a user will even *look* for in-computer help?
My original idea was to determine to what degree Ubuntu users first
*know* about it and, if so, whether they *use* it.

I would rather avoid a hypothetical question such as: "If you were an
Ubuntu user would you look for in-computer help?".

Thoughts?

peter matulis


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Re: Recent Doc Team meeting - Poll idea (Do people really use computer-based help?)

Jonathan Aquilina
In reply to this post by Peter Matulis-5
I will be honest as a kubuntu desktop user, I will be honest I never turned to the in built help as it usually pointed to online help anyway. I just skip wasting time wiht the in built help and go directly and google what I am having a problem with.


On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 10:14 PM, Peter Matulis <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 05/09/2014 01:51 PM, Penelope Stowe wrote:
> On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Peter Matulis
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Last Wednesday (May 7) we there was a Doc team meeting [1] and an idea
>     surfaced that an attempt be made to determine the general level of
>     readership/usage of the help/doc facility in Ubuntu (Desktop).
>     Including this facility involves participation in a rigid set of
>     development/packaging rules & schedule that may not be worth the
>     trouble.
>
>     Preliminary poll:
>
>     << Do people think conducting such a poll is worthwhile? >>
>
>
> Who would targeted as responders to said poll? If you only poll current
> Ubuntu users, you're probably going to get a different answer than if
> you poll current users as well as trying to get answers from current
> Windows and MacOS users who could potentially use Ubuntu down the road.
> I've done informal polling of this exact question among people I know
> and there's definitely a difference between the people I know who use
> Ubuntu (who tend to be slightly more technologically savvy) and those
> who use Windows/MacOS, but are part of the stated target of making
> Ubuntu friendly to/usable by everyone.
>
> My opinion on whether a poll would be useful does depend on knowing who
> would be the target of such a poll. There are ways to get non-technical
> and non-Ubuntu users to answer a poll on this question. If there's no
> decided target, then I will give a longer explanation of my thoughts.

Thanks for your thoughts Penelope.

I think polling Ubuntu users is good enough since there are former
Windows/Mac users among them.  But you raise an interesting point:  do
we want to know whether a user will even *look* for in-computer help?
My original idea was to determine to what degree Ubuntu users first
*know* about it and, if so, whether they *use* it.

I would rather avoid a hypothetical question such as: "If you were an
Ubuntu user would you look for in-computer help?".

Thoughts?

peter matulis


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Re: Recent Doc Team meeting - Poll idea (Do people really use computer-based help?)

Jared Norris
In reply to this post by Peter Matulis-5
On 10 May 2014 07:11, Jim Byrnes <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 05/09/2014 03:14 PM, Peter Matulis wrote:
On 05/09/2014 01:51 PM, Penelope Stowe wrote:
On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Peter Matulis
<[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

     Last Wednesday (May 7) we there was a Doc team meeting [1] and an idea
     surfaced that an attempt be made to determine the general level of
     readership/usage of the help/doc facility in Ubuntu (Desktop).
     Including this facility involves participation in a rigid set of
     development/packaging rules & schedule that may not be worth the
     trouble.

     Preliminary poll:

     << Do people think conducting such a poll is worthwhile? >>


Who would targeted as responders to said poll? If you only poll current
Ubuntu users, you're probably going to get a different answer than if
you poll current users as well as trying to get answers from current
Windows and MacOS users who could potentially use Ubuntu down the road.
I've done informal polling of this exact question among people I know
and there's definitely a difference between the people I know who use
Ubuntu (who tend to be slightly more technologically savvy) and those
who use Windows/MacOS, but are part of the stated target of making
Ubuntu friendly to/usable by everyone.

My opinion on whether a poll would be useful does depend on knowing who
would be the target of such a poll. There are ways to get non-technical
and non-Ubuntu users to answer a poll on this question. If there's no
decided target, then I will give a longer explanation of my thoughts.

Thanks for your thoughts Penelope.

I think polling Ubuntu users is good enough since there are former
Windows/Mac users among them.  But you raise an interesting point:  do
we want to know whether a user will even *look* for in-computer help?
My original idea was to determine to what degree Ubuntu users first
*know* about it and, if so, whether they *use* it.

I would rather avoid a hypothetical question such as: "If you were an
Ubuntu user would you look for in-computer help?".

Thoughts?

peter matulis



Interesting question.  Until I read this thread I had forgotten about in computer help, so I went looking for it.  I am running 12.04 and there is no help icon on the top bar or the launcher.  It's possible that there was one on the launcher and I removed it, but I don't remember doing so.  I clicked the little gear at the top right corner of the top bar and didn't see any help there.  Finally I typed help into the dash search bar then I was able to access the in computer help.

In 10.04 as I think there was a help item in the menus on the top bar. I guess what I am saying is if you want people to use it, it should be more accessible.

I was new to linux when I started using 10.04 so I remember reading the in computer help at that time.  Now I usually google first and then come here with questions.  I guess I am saying that the more experience a user has the less they use the in computer help.

Regards,  Jim



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I guess the real issue is for those who either:
* don't have reasonable access to the internet for whatever reason
* have a problem with their system that prevents accessing the internet

I think at times we (and I include myself) tend to assume that everyone is faced with the same challenges but when in reality, it can be significantly different.


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Re: Recent Doc Team meeting - Poll idea (Do people really use computer-based help?)

Svetlana Belkin-2
In reply to this post by Jonathan Aquilina
On 05/10/2014 02:39 AM, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
> I will be honest as a kubuntu desktop user, I will be honest I never
> turned to the in built help as it usually pointed to online help anyway.
> I just skip wasting time wiht the in built help and go directly and
> google what I am having a problem with.

I do the same with everything, even non-Ubuntu related.
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Member of: LoCo Contacts, Ubuntu Doc Team, Ubuntu Ohio, Ubuntu Women
User Wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/belkinsa

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Re: Recent Doc Team meeting - Poll idea (Do people really use computer-based help?)

Bruce Hyatt
I was going to wait for the poll, but....

The shortcoming with on-line help is, what if you're having problems with your NIC? I've been there before.

Bruce Hyatt


On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 7:45 AM, Svetlana Belkin <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 05/10/2014 02:39 AM, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
I will be honest as a kubuntu desktop user, I will be honest I never
turned to the in built help as it usually pointed to online help anyway.
I just skip wasting time wiht the in built help and go directly and
google what I am having a problem with.

I do the same with everything, even non-Ubuntu related.
--
Svetlana Belkin A.K.A: belkinsa
Member of: LoCo Contacts, Ubuntu Doc Team, Ubuntu Ohio, Ubuntu Women
User Wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/belkinsa


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Re: Recent Doc Team meeting - Poll idea (Do people really use computer-based help?)

Penelope Stowe
In reply to this post by Peter Matulis-5
On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Peter Matulis <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks for your thoughts Penelope.

I think polling Ubuntu users is good enough since there are former
Windows/Mac users among them.  But you raise an interesting point:  do
we want to know whether a user will even *look* for in-computer help?
My original idea was to determine to what degree Ubuntu users first
*know* about it and, if so, whether they *use* it.

I would rather avoid a hypothetical question such as: "If you were an
Ubuntu user would you look for in-computer help?".

Thoughts?

I was thinking of a more OS-unspecific question such as "Do you know how to find in-computer help and do you use it?". That could be asked to anyone using any OS. Having run a poll for the Accessibility Team that was not targeted at just Ubuntu users or technically savvy computer users, I'm happy to share what techniques we used for advertising the poll so that we got as many responses as possible. (In my experience, it is easier to get non-technical users to respond to polls regarding technology than many people realize). Even if the decision is made to only poll Ubuntu users, I think there needs to be a discussion on how to make sure as broad a number of users are polled as possible. I'm not sure that just sending out on the mailing lists would include a wide enough range.

My concern with limiting to current Ubuntu users in such a poll is that in my experience, the more tech savvy the user, the less likely they are to use in-computer help. Among the people I know, it's the non-technical users who use the in-computer help. They are also people who tend to currently not use Ubuntu, but would if it was something installed for them. My concern is that if we were to only poll current Ubuntu users, we'd likely end up removing in-computer help which would then make it harder to "sell" Ubuntu to non-technical users. That's fine if we're okay with not expanding to a less technical user base, but one of the things that has been said for the entire time I've been involved with the project is that one of the goals is to make Ubuntu accessible to everyone regardless of technical ability.

The other concern of any online poll is that it will inherently exclude the chance for people who don't have internet access to give their input. Since that's another group of people who likely depend on in-computer help, it is a group that needs to be factored into any decision to remove the in-computer help. Hopefully people who have experience with Ubuntu machines in areas where internet access isn't ubiquitous would be able to give input on how much removing in-computer help would be a problem. I don't necessarily that concern is a reason against doing a poll, but I think it's a reason why a poll can't be the only factor into a decision on removing in-computer help. (I'm not saying I think you meant it should be, but it's easy to fall back onto data from polls even when they don't tell the entire story).

~Penelope

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Re: Recent Doc Team meeting - Poll idea (Do people really use computer-based help?)

Gunnar Hjalmarsson
2014-05-10 15:33, Penelope Stowe wrote:
> On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Peter Matulis
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>> I think polling Ubuntu users is good enough since there are former
>> Windows/Mac users among them.  But you raise an interesting point:  do
>> we want to know whether a user will even *look* for in-computer help?
>> My original idea was to determine to what degree Ubuntu users first
>> *know* about it and, if so, whether they *use* it.

To the extent people don't know about the existence of Ubuntu Help, I'd
say that the first step to take ought to be to make them aware of it,
which I suppose would be a desktop design thing.

Personally, even if I - like many other Ubuntu users - have the habit of
looking for help on the web, I find Ubuntu Help to be a well-structured
resource with a useful search feature.

Let me remind of Martin's message:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2014-May/018920.html

Possibly we have a situation where few people know about Ubuntu Help,
but if they did, they would use it to a large extent.

> My concern with limiting to current Ubuntu users in such a poll is that
> in my experience, the more tech savvy the user, the less likely they are
> to use in-computer help. Among the people I know, it's the non-technical
> users who use the in-computer help. They are also people who tend to
> currently not use Ubuntu, but would if it was something installed for
> them. My concern is that if we were to only poll current Ubuntu users,
> we'd likely end up removing in-computer help which would then make it
> harder to "sell" Ubuntu to non-technical users. That's fine if we're
> okay with not expanding to a less technical user base, but one of the
> things that has been said for the entire time I've been involved with
> the project is that one of the goals is to make Ubuntu accessible to
> everyone regardless of technical ability.

I share that concern 100%.

Also, the poll idea was initially brought up by Peter on the latest docs
team meeting under the topic "Find a driver" when we were talking about
the lack of desktop guide contributors.

http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/05/07/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t18:41

If I understood it correctly, Peter's underlying thought was that if
people don't use the installed Ubuntu Help feature, but rather look for
help on the web, we might drop the ubuntu-docs package and with that
free the desktop guide subteam from the burden of meeting release
schedule deadlines.

However, personally I don't think that deadlines are bad. On the
contrary, a deadline may make people wake up and do things that else
would not have been done. Consequently I don't believe in dropping the
package as a response to the problem with a lack of contributors.


So, getting to know about user behavior and expectations is generally a
good thing. But a poll ought to be preceeded by an in depth discussion
about what it is we want to know. We haven't had such a discussion yet,
have we?

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Re: Recent Doc Team meeting - Poll idea (Do people really use computer-based help?)

Tom Davies
Hi :)
I tend to "google it" or "duck duck go it" when i need to find something but i put
"Community Documentation"
in quotes jic  that wouldn't otherwise appear high enough in the results.  That is usually only when looking for pages i already know of though. 

Is "Search Engine Optimisation" worth looking into?  I suspect that more than enough work has already gone into all that and that it's outside our expertise anyway but is it something that might have slipped passed us somehow? 

Regards from
Tom :) 




On 11 June 2014 06:50, Gunnar Hjalmarsson <[hidden email]> wrote:
2014-05-10 15:33, Penelope Stowe wrote:
> On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Peter Matulis
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>> I think polling Ubuntu users is good enough since there are former
>> Windows/Mac users among them.  But you raise an interesting point:  do
>> we want to know whether a user will even *look* for in-computer help?
>> My original idea was to determine to what degree Ubuntu users first
>> *know* about it and, if so, whether they *use* it.

To the extent people don't know about the existence of Ubuntu Help, I'd
say that the first step to take ought to be to make them aware of it,
which I suppose would be a desktop design thing.

Personally, even if I - like many other Ubuntu users - have the habit of
looking for help on the web, I find Ubuntu Help to be a well-structured
resource with a useful search feature.

Let me remind of Martin's message:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2014-May/018920.html

Possibly we have a situation where few people know about Ubuntu Help,
but if they did, they would use it to a large extent.

> My concern with limiting to current Ubuntu users in such a poll is that
> in my experience, the more tech savvy the user, the less likely they are
> to use in-computer help. Among the people I know, it's the non-technical
> users who use the in-computer help. They are also people who tend to
> currently not use Ubuntu, but would if it was something installed for
> them. My concern is that if we were to only poll current Ubuntu users,
> we'd likely end up removing in-computer help which would then make it
> harder to "sell" Ubuntu to non-technical users. That's fine if we're
> okay with not expanding to a less technical user base, but one of the
> things that has been said for the entire time I've been involved with
> the project is that one of the goals is to make Ubuntu accessible to
> everyone regardless of technical ability.

I share that concern 100%.

Also, the poll idea was initially brought up by Peter on the latest docs
team meeting under the topic "Find a driver" when we were talking about
the lack of desktop guide contributors.

http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/05/07/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t18:41

If I understood it correctly, Peter's underlying thought was that if
people don't use the installed Ubuntu Help feature, but rather look for
help on the web, we might drop the ubuntu-docs package and with that
free the desktop guide subteam from the burden of meeting release
schedule deadlines.

However, personally I don't think that deadlines are bad. On the
contrary, a deadline may make people wake up and do things that else
would not have been done. Consequently I don't believe in dropping the
package as a response to the problem with a lack of contributors.


So, getting to know about user behavior and expectations is generally a
good thing. But a poll ought to be preceeded by an in depth discussion
about what it is we want to know. We haven't had such a discussion yet,
have we?

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