System requirements - Was: Out of Space

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System requirements - Was: Out of Space

Ralf Mardorf-2
On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 12:39:48 +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote:
>well, i beg to disagree ...
>https://launchpad.net/~ricotz/+archive/ubuntu/red/+build/10539905
>(see the "Finished" line)
>
>it makes quite some difference if your system is powerful enough to
>build something like firefox or libreoffice in 1-2h less when you need
>to verify a bugfix locally and colleagues are possibly waiting for you
>as well ;)

That's correct, I need more than 1 hour to build something like firefox
or a kernel and apart from this my tmpfs is to small to build something
like firefox, building a kernel usually works, but one time also
failed in tmpfs. My point isn't that every user should use such a slow
computer, with as less RAM as I do. My CPU wastes 45W, but is powerful
enough for pro-audio, as 4 GiB of RAM are either, the frequency scaling
governor just needs to be at a fixed frequency, usually "performance".

For building large software, such as Firefox several times a day, I
would buy a different machine in the first place, a CPU with more and
faster cores, that wastes more Watt, but OTOH could use the "ondemand"
frequency scaling governor for this task and I also would add more RAM.

I could use the same mobo, just with another CPU and more RAM. The
more powerful CPU and the RAM were available, when I bought the
components for my computer years ago.

IOW there still is no need to get a new machine again and again for
most tasks, there are just exceptional tasks that require for usage and
development the latest and greatest, e.g. for simulations or video,
while video anyway isn't a Linux domain. I'm talking about
professional NLE, so please no examples about all the professional
companies, that are using Linux for some aspects of film production.

Unless you are not developing something like math intensive simulations
or NLE professional video editing, you just need a suitable computer
for this task, but it could be > 10 years old.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: System requirements - Was: Out of Space

Ralf Mardorf-2
PS:

Many users are using computers, that provide headroom they never need
and even with an ondemand frequency scaling, they just consume too much
power.

Other users really need the latest and greatest, just to run Firefox
on some bad programmed modern 3D desktop environment. Desktop
environments they anyway never use, because they actually just use
Firefox and they only need the super powerful machine to start the
desktop session and to start Firefox and again they are just consuming
too much power.

Sure, a CRT most likely consumes too much power, too and the quality
gets worse as time goes by, so if possible such a monitor should be
replaced by something newer. This might make sense, but it makes no
sense to buy a new computer all <= 5 years.


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Re: System requirements - Was: Out of Space

Ralf Mardorf-2
On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 13:02:49 +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote:

>hi,
>Am Dienstag, den 09.08.2016, 22:33 +0200 schrieb Oliver Grawert:
>> hi,
>> On Di, 2016-08-09 at 20:14 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:  
>...
>
>oh, and who brought up that myth that the BIOS would have anything to
>do with being able to GPT boot or not? 
>
>it definitely has not ... thats a bootloader thing ...

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2016-August/286767.html


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Re: System requirements - Was: Out of Space

Oliver Grawert
In reply to this post by Ralf Mardorf-2
hi,
On Mi, 2016-08-10 at 13:18 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 12:39:48 +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote:
> >
> > well, i beg to disagree ...
> > https://launchpad.net/~ricotz/+archive/ubuntu/red/+build/10539905
> > (see the "Finished" line)
> >
> > it makes quite some difference if your system is powerful enough to
> > build something like firefox or libreoffice in 1-2h less when you
> > need
> > to verify a bugfix locally and colleagues are possibly waiting for
> > you
> > as well ;)
> > ...
> enough for pro-audio, as 4 GiB of RAM are either, the frequency
> scaling
> governor just needs to be at a fixed frequency, usually
> "performance".
why ? do you not trust the kernel devs ? the ondemand governor will do
the right thing if needed and not waste power when not needed ...

>
> For building large software, such as Firefox several times a day, I
> would buy a different machine in the first place, a CPU with more and
> faster cores, that wastes more Watt, but OTOH could use the
> "ondemand"
> frequency scaling governor for this task and I also would add more
> RAM.

you should regardless always use the ondemand governor unless you
actually want to enforce "powersave" permanently ;) 

>
> I could use the same mobo, just with another CPU and more RAM. The
> more powerful CPU and the RAM were available, when I bought the
> components for my computer years ago.+

within the lifecycle of a machine i definitely replace the CPU and add
RAM indeed ...

>
> IOW there still is no need to get a new machine again and again for
> most tasks, there are just exceptional tasks that require for usage
> and
> development the latest and greatest, e.g. for simulations or video,
> while video anyway isn't a Linux domain. I'm talking about
> professional NLE, so please no examples about all the professional
> companies, that are using Linux for some aspects of film production.
>
> Unless you are not developing something like math intensive
> simulations
> or NLE professional video editing, you just need a suitable computer
> for this task, but it could be > 10 years old.
well, up to you ... if your employer bills ... say $400/h for you and
you can explain to the customer that he has to pay this extra amount
because your hardware is slow to build that firefox security fix for
him thgat he needs today ... or if you can explain to your family why
you spend 1h more working every day for saving a bit on the hardware
.... sure ... totally your choice :)

as i said, i'm surely not the casual user, for some browsing and office
work i'd most likely not use such a system and not upgrade it that
often ...

as statistics show the obvious casual user actually doesnt even buy a
PC anymore (else PC sales would not have broken in that heavily over
the last years) but is happy with his tablet or phablet smartphone.

ciao
        oli


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Re: System requirements - Was: Out of Space

Oliver Grawert
In reply to this post by Ralf Mardorf-2
hi,
On Mi, 2016-08-10 at 13:37 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 13:02:49 +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote:
> >
> > hi,
> > Am Dienstag, den 09.08.2016, 22:33 +0200 schrieb Oliver Grawert:
> > >
> > > hi,
> > > On Di, 2016-08-09 at 20:14 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:  
> > ...
> >
> > oh, and who brought up that myth that the BIOS would have anything
> > to
> > do with being able to GPT boot or not? 
> >
> > it definitely has not ... thats a bootloader thing ...
>
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2016-August/286767.htm
> l
hmm, yeah ... 

the MBR always needs *some* first stage bootloader in the first 440
bytes to have a bootable system at all (grubs stage 1 blob, the windows
bootloader, open firmware, coreboot, uboot or whatever other thing)
... 
even if you boot off a partition that holds the second stage ...

an MBR is 512 bytes big and the partition table only starts at byte 446
...

while windows can *only* boot from GPT when in UEFI mode, linux can
boot from whatever partition table you want ...

the partition table handling is a matter of the bootloader and the OS,
not a matter of BIOS or UEFI, though if you have a dual boot with
windows you re indeed enforced to use GPT with UEFI to keep the windows
side functional. the same thing goes for secure boot scenarios where
GPT is a requirement
... 
but a default linux-only boot can use any combo here.

ciao
        oli

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Re: System requirements - Was: Out of Space

Ralf Mardorf-2
In reply to this post by Oliver Grawert
On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 13:50:07 +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote:
>> enough for pro-audio, as 4 GiB of RAM are either, the frequency
>> scaling governor just needs to be at a fixed frequency, usually
>> "performance".  
>why ? do you not trust the kernel devs ? the ondemand governor will do
>the right thing if needed and not waste power when not needed ...

That's nonsense, on most machines it does cause xruns. It's a well
known issue. JFTR there nearly is no difference in power consumption
between ondemand and performance on many machines, I anyway recommend
to use it when not doing real-time audio work.

>well, up to you ... if your employer bills ... say $400/h for you and
>you can explain to the customer that he has to pay this extra amount
>because your hardware is slow to build that firefox security fix for
>him thgat he needs today ...

If he's willing to pay you $400/h to get a fix for Firefox, he needs an
honest consultant to chose another browser and to get rid of a coder
like you.

>or if you can explain to your family why you spend 1h more working
>every day for saving a bit on the hardware .... sure ... totally your
>choice :)

That's an absurd claim. If you bought a suitable computer <= 5 years
ago, an up-to-date computer doesn't safe you 1 hour today, at least not
for compiling software such as Firefox.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: System requirements - Was: Out of Space

Ralf Mardorf-2
On Wed, 2016-08-10 at 16:08 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 13:50:07 +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote:
> > >
> > > enough for pro-audio, as 4 GiB of RAM are either, the frequency
> > > scaling governor just needs to be at a fixed frequency, usually
> > > "performance".  
> > why ? do you not trust the kernel devs ? the ondemand governor will do
> > the right thing if needed and not waste power when not needed ...
>
> That's nonsense, on most machines it does cause xruns. It's a well
> known issue. JFTR there nearly is no difference in power consumption
> between ondemand and performance on many machines, I anyway recommend
> to use it when not doing real-time audio work.

Let alone that an rt patched kernel not necessarily provides the
frequency scaling governor at all, regarding CPU related issues.


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RE: System requirements - Was: Out of Space

J.Witvliet
In reply to this post by Ralf Mardorf-2


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Oliver Grawert
Sent: woensdag 10 augustus 2016 13:50
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: System requirements - Was: Out of Space

hi,
On Mi, 2016-08-10 at 13:18 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 12:39:48 +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote:
> >
> > well, i beg to disagree ...
> > https://launchpad.net/~ricotz/+archive/ubuntu/red/+build/10539905
> > (see the "Finished" line)
> >
> > it makes quite some difference if your system is powerful enough to
> > build something like firefox or libreoffice in 1-2h less when you
> > need to verify a bugfix locally and colleagues are possibly waiting
> > for you as well ;) ...
> enough for pro-audio, as 4 GiB of RAM are either, the frequency
> scaling governor just needs to be at a fixed frequency, usually
> "performance".
why ? do you not trust the kernel devs ? the ondemand governor will do the right thing if needed and not waste power when not needed ...

>
> For building large software, such as Firefox several times a day, I
> would buy a different machine in the first place, a CPU with more and
> faster cores, that wastes more Watt, but OTOH could use the "ondemand"
> frequency scaling governor for this task and I also would add more
> RAM.

you should regardless always use the ondemand governor unless you actually want to enforce "powersave" permanently ;)

>
> I could use the same mobo, just with another CPU and more RAM. The
> more powerful CPU and the RAM were available, when I bought the
> components for my computer years ago.+

within the lifecycle of a machine i definitely replace the CPU and add RAM indeed ...

>
> IOW there still is no need to get a new machine again and again for
> most tasks, there are just exceptional tasks that require for usage
> and development the latest and greatest, e.g. for simulations or
> video, while video anyway isn't a Linux domain. I'm talking about
> professional NLE, so please no examples about all the professional
> companies, that are using Linux for some aspects of film production.
>
> Unless you are not developing something like math intensive
> simulations or NLE professional video editing, you just need a
> suitable computer for this task, but it could be > 10 years old.

well, up to you ... if your employer bills ... say $400/h for you and you can explain to the customer that he has to pay this extra amount because your hardware is slow to build that firefox security fix for him thgat he needs today ... or if you can explain to your family why you spend 1h more working every day for saving a bit on the hardware .... sure ... totally your choice :)

If it is only making packages for Debian/Ubuntu....
You can always build packages on the online-build-system. No need for building packages locally anymore
A huge build farm for all kinds of distro's and architectures. And it is free, as in free-lunch / free-beer ;-)

Nowadays you only need heavy equipment  for local-number crunching (NLE, mining, etc)



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Re: System requirements - Was: Out of Space

Oliver Grawert
In reply to this post by Ralf Mardorf-2
hi,
Am Mittwoch, den 10.08.2016, 16:08 +0200 schrieb Ralf Mardorf:

> > or if you can explain to your family why you spend 1h more working
> > every day for saving a bit on the hardware .... sure ... totally
> > your
> > choice :)
> That's an absurd claim. If you bought a suitable computer <= 5 years
> ago, an up-to-date computer doesn't safe you 1 hour today, at least
> not
> for compiling software such as Firefox.

thanks for being so firendly and respectful in your wording ...

it saves me far more than 1h per day, it saves me 1h on a single task,
my machine is well capable of building libreoffice and firefox at the
same time while it does ten iso builds and still leaves enough power to
do normal office and web tasks while all these scripted things run ... 

feel free to pick whatever hardware you like for your tasks but please
respect that other people have other needs without getting insulting or
calling tasks that you obviously do not seem to understand anything
about absurd...

$400/h is a pretty average number for a senior SW developer doing
consultant work for a company ... (i did only use it as example number
though)

ciao
        oli

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Re: System requirements - Was: Out of Space

Ralf Mardorf-2
On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 16:28:17 +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote:

>hi,
>Am Mittwoch, den 10.08.2016, 16:08 +0200 schrieb Ralf Mardorf:
>>   
>> > or if you can explain to your family why you spend 1h more working
>> > every day for saving a bit on the hardware .... sure ... totally
>> > your
>> > choice :)  
>> That's an absurd claim. If you bought a suitable computer <= 5 years
>> ago, an up-to-date computer doesn't safe you 1 hour today, at least
>> not
>> for compiling software such as Firefox.  
>
>thanks for being so firendly and respectful in your wording ...
>
>it saves me far more than 1h per day, it saves me 1h on a single task,
>my machine is well capable of building libreoffice and firefox at the
>same time while it does ten iso builds and still leaves enough power to
>do normal office and web tasks while all these scripted things run ... 
>
>feel free to pick whatever hardware you like for your tasks but please
>respect that other people have other needs without getting insulting or
>calling tasks that you obviously do not seem to understand anything
>about absurd...
>
>$400/h is a pretty average number for a senior SW developer doing
>consultant work for a company ... (i did only use it as example number
>though)

There is no reason to fix Firefox in a short time. Because A is wrong,
there should be no reason to do B wrong, too. Explain your family, that
they will experience waves of refugees in an amount that the current
wave of refugees is a peanut. Explain your family that the current
ecological calamities are peanuts compared to those, that we get very
soon, if we continue our lifestyle. You don't have arguments, you only
provide excuses for bad habits.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: System requirements - Was: Out of Space

Oliver Grawert
hi,
Am Mittwoch, den 10.08.2016, 16:44 +0200 schrieb Ralf Mardorf:

> You don't have arguments, you only
> provide excuses for bad habits.
>
please lets stop this thread here and now, you are obviously not
understanding anything of the bits i talk about (how many decades do
you work in SW development, how many gigabyte sized upstream projects
does your machine build in parallel daily for customers etc etc ?) 

...and you get more rude with every post ...
lets just stop, this is just insulting and unfriendly of you and
doesn't get better with more posts ... 

ciao
        oli
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Re: System requirements - Was: Out of Space

Tom H-4
In reply to this post by Ralf Mardorf-2
On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 7:37 AM, Ralf Mardorf <[hidden email]> wrote:

> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2016-August/286767.html

This link has

<begin>
The only issue I see here is that terabyte-sized drives are usually
partitioned with GPT, not MBR. With GPT there is no MBR present.
However, GPT disks are only bootable on UEFI machines. With UEFI, a
boot disk must have a ~100MB FAT32 system partition, and as I
understand it, GRUB goes in there, not in the disk's boot sector or in
the root partition's boot sector.
</end>

which is incorrect.

You can boot from a gpt-labeled disk on a non-efi system. The MBR
gap's replaced by a 1MB bios_boot partition for grub to embed an image
into.

Furthermore, the first sector (the first 512B) is a "protective MBR,"
which the same as a msdos-labeled disk's MBR. IIRC, grub embeds an
image into the first 446B just like on an msdos-labeled disk.

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Re: System requirements - Was: Out of Space

Ralf Mardorf-2
In reply to this post by Oliver Grawert
On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 16:57:13 +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote:
>...and you get more rude with every post ...

It's rude to mention the truth?

It's not a subjective opinion, it's simply reality, the asymmetrical
distribution still looks like this:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=agbogbloshie+images

This has got consequences and it's just one aspect of this lifestyle,
not only the attitude regarding computers is bad.

Your children can't benefit from your financial richness, if the
Western lifestyle destroys social environments and global climate.

It's very rude to ignore this. I don't see were my wording was rude at
any point.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: System requirements - Was: Out of Space

Oliver Grawert
hi
Am Mittwoch, den 10.08.2016, 17:13 +0200 schrieb Ralf Mardorf:
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 16:57:13 +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote:
> >
> > ...and you get more rude with every post ...
> It's rude to mention the truth?
>

you only mention *your* truth ... without having any respect or even
remote understanding for my reality, so yes, this is rude and insulting
...

you accuse me of "having a lifestyle" while i talk about a technical
requirement to get my job done, you accuse me of being ignorant towards
the envorinment or humainty while you have no clue about me at all (my
house has a 50sqm solar panel preventing the oil heating (which is
still the most common type of heating in germany as you might know)
from generating 80% of the CO2 it would normally do...

you have no right at all to judge me like that by me describing a
necessary technical setup for getting my work done ...

you are respectless and rude calling me "absurd",
calling my words "nonsense", accusing me of having a "wasteful
lifestlye" because i use modern hardware that can do the task faster
in a less power consuming way with more modern power supplies, less
waste via heat radiation etc ...

i guess you are also in the camp of people that prefer to drive a 40
year old diesel car because this is "more enviroment friendly" than
having a 10 year old non diesel car with catalysator and low carb
engine ... but be it ... 

you are obviously ignorant towards anything i'm saying, so there is no
value to continue that.

ciao
        oli

PS: since i know from experience that you can not live without having
the last word in a thread, feel free to have it now, i will not answer
any more on this particular topic ...
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Re: System requirements - Was: Out of Space

Gene Heskett-2
In reply to this post by Ralf Mardorf-2
On Wednesday 10 August 2016 10:13:19 Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> On Wed, 2016-08-10 at 16:08 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 13:50:07 +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote:
> > > > enough for pro-audio, as 4 GiB of RAM are either, the frequency
> > > > scaling governor just needs to be at a fixed frequency, usually
> > > > "performance".
> > >
> > > why ? do you not trust the kernel devs ? the ondemand governor
> > > will do the right thing if needed and not waste power when not
> > > needed ...
> >
> > That's nonsense, on most machines it does cause xruns. It's a well
> > known issue. JFTR there nearly is no difference in power consumption
> > between ondemand and performance on many machines, I anyway
> > recommend to use it when not doing real-time audio work.
>
> Let alone that an rt patched kernel not necessarily provides the
> frequency scaling governor at all, regarding CPU related issues.

No it doesn't, nor does it supply PAE despite its being in the built
images name. PAE adds quite some (20+) microseconds to the latency
response, unsuitable for realtime control. So that is one of the
casualties of the RTAI patch set.

OffTopic:

I do not run such a kernel on this machine as its setup to simulate only,
and an amd phenom 9900 quad core running at 2.1GHz on this machine will
at times have a major fraction of a second response to a scheduled IRQ
at 1KHz rates. But since theres no machinery out there that would start
& stop and stutter along, its a visual problem only.

But to give an idea of what CAN be done, the absolute worst case, on a
dual core atom running at 1.6GHz has a latency of 8,449 nanoseconds,
with a running average of 3,500 nanoseconds.  Thats 8.5 microseconds
worst case, average of 3.5 microseconds.

In comparison, this supposed much more powerfull Asus M2N-SLI Deluxe mobo
with an now old 4 core phenom running at 2.1 GHz, with 8Gb of ram
machine does 10,092,890 nanoseconds worst case.  Thats 10 milliseconds!

It is not only not in the same ballpark, its not even in the same league.

That Intel D-525-MW board at about a $45 bill when it first came out, was
the sleeper of the decade for us.  Sadly for us wannabe machinists, its
been discoed, and the last time I looked for one on fleabay, the price
had quadrupled. I can buy a mesa pci 5i25 card thats even better for a
$90 bill and put it in an old used computer for less money.  So thats
what will be moved to the bigger lathe when I am ready to exercise it
with a computer. The monitor won't be, its too small and dimming in its
dotage despite being an LCD.  By now it probably needs new capacitors in
the CCFL power supply. The first failure mode by far in these modern
flat screens. I have no clue if the LED backlit versions are any better.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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Re: System requirements - Was: Out of Space

Ralf Mardorf-2
In reply to this post by Oliver Grawert
On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 17:37:17 +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote:
>calling my words "nonsense"

I mentioned "nonsense" regarding a technically wrong claim, regarding
the frequency scaling governor.

>i guess you are also in the camp of people that prefer to drive a 40
>year old diesel car because this is "more enviroment friendly" than
>having a 10 year old non diesel car with catalysator and low carb
>engine ... but be it ... 

That is absurd, you are guessing without any evidence. I only refer to
your claims, no guessing from my side at all.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: System requirements - Was: Out of Space

Gene Heskett-2
In reply to this post by Tom H-4
On Wednesday 10 August 2016 11:04:31 Tom H wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 7:37 AM, Ralf Mardorf <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> > https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2016-August/286767.ht
> >ml
>
> This link has
>
> <begin>
> The only issue I see here is that terabyte-sized drives are usually
> partitioned with GPT, not MBR. With GPT there is no MBR present.
> However, GPT disks are only bootable on UEFI machines. With UEFI, a
> boot disk must have a ~100MB FAT32 system partition, and as I
> understand it, GRUB goes in there, not in the disk's boot sector or in
> the root partition's boot sector.
> </end>
>
> which is incorrect.
>
> You can boot from a gpt-labeled disk on a non-efi system. The MBR
> gap's replaced by a 1MB bios_boot partition for grub to embed an image
> into.
>
> Furthermore, the first sector (the first 512B) is a "protective MBR,"
> which the same as a msdos-labeled disk's MBR. IIRC, grub embeds an
> image into the first 446B just like on an msdos-labeled disk.

Thank you very much Tom H, you just answered a question I asked in a
different once related thread. Now I will go and set this new drive up
with GPT style partitions, using the wheezy supplied gparted.  And see
if I can make staticly addressed networking work with ubuntu-mate 16.04
LTS one or 10 more times.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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