Translating a rolling release

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Translating a rolling release

Redmar-3
Hello Translators,

As some of you may be aware, there has been some talk in the community
about changing ubuntu's well known six month release schedule, and
switching to a rolling release model. This would mean that new versions
of programs will arrive in ubuntu when they are deemed ready, rather
than on a six month cycle. The LTS (Long Term Support) releases would
continue to exist in their current form. You can read more about the
proposal here [1].

Since switching to a rolling release will clearly have an impact on our
work, so I was wondering how other translators feel about this proposed
change. After we have discussed this, I will create summary of the
points raised here, so that our position on this proposal is clear for
the wider community.

On the positive side, translation effort does not have to be condensed
into a short window between UI Freeze an the TranslationsDeadline, which
should give us all more time to complete translations. Also, if programs
are updated more frequently, the amount of new strings in each release
will also be smaller, which again makes translating easier.

If updates are more frequent, this could also remove the need for
langpack updates, which have been lacking of late anyway.

The main negative side is the risk of regressions in translation of
programs. If the new version of a program is released before translators
have had time to update all translations, users will be faced with a
program that is suddenly only partly translated. This is a serious
usability problem with the Dash and HUD, since these are text-based
tools. For example, I'm currently running the Dutch beta of 13.04, and
many of the search terms I use to start programs (Dash) or interact with
program menus (HUD) do not work, since the translations are not
completed yet. If we switch to a rolling release, each new version of a
program has a chance of breaking the users workflow by removing
localised terms the user relied on for the Dash or HUD. Clearly, this
would not be acceptable.

Tools needed: There would have to be some way that translators get
notified when the new version of a program is about to land. I'm
guessing this is not a difficult thing to accomplish, and could be as
simple as sending an automatic message to the ubuntu-translators list
when a new version of a program enters the 'proposed' repository.

Those are my thoughts on the subject, what do you think?

Regards,
Redmar

--
Ubuntu Dutch Translators

[1]
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2013-February/036537.html


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Re: Translating a rolling release

Игорь Зубарев



2013/3/16 Redmar <[hidden email]>
Hello Translators,

As some of you may be aware, there has been some talk in the community
about changing ubuntu's well known six month release schedule, and
switching to a rolling release model. This would mean that new versions
of programs will arrive in ubuntu when they are deemed ready, rather
than on a six month cycle. The LTS (Long Term Support) releases would
continue to exist in their current form. You can read more about the
proposal here [1].

Since switching to a rolling release will clearly have an impact on our
work, so I was wondering how other translators feel about this proposed
change. After we have discussed this, I will create summary of the
points raised here, so that our position on this proposal is clear for
the wider community.

On the positive side, translation effort does not have to be condensed
into a short window between UI Freeze an the TranslationsDeadline, which
should give us all more time to complete translations. Also, if programs
are updated more frequently, the amount of new strings in each release
will also be smaller, which again makes translating easier.

If updates are more frequent, this could also remove the need for
langpack updates, which have been lacking of late anyway.

The main negative side is the risk of regressions in translation of
programs. If the new version of a program is released before translators
have had time to update all translations, users will be faced with a
program that is suddenly only partly translated. This is a serious
usability problem with the Dash and HUD, since these are text-based
tools. For example, I'm currently running the Dutch beta of 13.04, and
many of the search terms I use to start programs (Dash) or interact with
program menus (HUD) do not work, since the translations are not
completed yet. If we switch to a rolling release, each new version of a
program has a chance of breaking the users workflow by removing
localised terms the user relied on for the Dash or HUD. Clearly, this
would not be acceptable.


I see the same thing. Many strings in Dash already translated in Launchpad but we have no langpacks.
So UI is not completely translated and we can't check the correctnes.
Maybe this is a bug?

 
Tools needed: There would have to be some way that translators get
notified when the new version of a program is about to land. I'm
guessing this is not a difficult thing to accomplish, and could be as
simple as sending an automatic message to the ubuntu-translators list
when a new version of a program enters the 'proposed' repository.

Those are my thoughts on the subject, what do you think?

Regards,
Redmar

--
Ubuntu Dutch Translators

[1]
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2013-February/036537.html


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Re: Translating a rolling release

Jonathan Aquilina
Wouldnt this basically mean increasing the number of translation updates?


On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 1:34 PM, Игорь Зубарев <[hidden email]> wrote:



2013/3/16 Redmar <[hidden email]>
Hello Translators,

As some of you may be aware, there has been some talk in the community
about changing ubuntu's well known six month release schedule, and
switching to a rolling release model. This would mean that new versions
of programs will arrive in ubuntu when they are deemed ready, rather
than on a six month cycle. The LTS (Long Term Support) releases would
continue to exist in their current form. You can read more about the
proposal here [1].

Since switching to a rolling release will clearly have an impact on our
work, so I was wondering how other translators feel about this proposed
change. After we have discussed this, I will create summary of the
points raised here, so that our position on this proposal is clear for
the wider community.

On the positive side, translation effort does not have to be condensed
into a short window between UI Freeze an the TranslationsDeadline, which
should give us all more time to complete translations. Also, if programs
are updated more frequently, the amount of new strings in each release
will also be smaller, which again makes translating easier.

If updates are more frequent, this could also remove the need for
langpack updates, which have been lacking of late anyway.

The main negative side is the risk of regressions in translation of
programs. If the new version of a program is released before translators
have had time to update all translations, users will be faced with a
program that is suddenly only partly translated. This is a serious
usability problem with the Dash and HUD, since these are text-based
tools. For example, I'm currently running the Dutch beta of 13.04, and
many of the search terms I use to start programs (Dash) or interact with
program menus (HUD) do not work, since the translations are not
completed yet. If we switch to a rolling release, each new version of a
program has a chance of breaking the users workflow by removing
localised terms the user relied on for the Dash or HUD. Clearly, this
would not be acceptable.


I see the same thing. Many strings in Dash already translated in Launchpad but we have no langpacks.
So UI is not completely translated and we can't check the correctnes.
Maybe this is a bug?

 
Tools needed: There would have to be some way that translators get
notified when the new version of a program is about to land. I'm
guessing this is not a difficult thing to accomplish, and could be as
simple as sending an automatic message to the ubuntu-translators list
when a new version of a program enters the 'proposed' repository.

Those are my thoughts on the subject, what do you think?

Regards,
Redmar

--
Ubuntu Dutch Translators

[1]
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2013-February/036537.html


--
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[hidden email]
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Jonathan Aquilina

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Re: Translating a rolling release

Redmar-3
Jonathan Aquilina schreef op za 16-03-2013 om 14:01 [+0100]:
> Wouldnt this basically mean increasing the number of translation
> updates?

Not exactly. While every new version of a program should give us a new
chance to complete translations, it can also introduce new untranslated
strings. So programs might go from fully  translated to 90% translated
if we don't complete the translations before the update.


>
> On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 1:34 PM, Игорь Зубарев
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>        
>        
>        
>         2013/3/16 Redmar <[hidden email]>
>                 Hello Translators,
>                
>                 As some of you may be aware, there has been some talk
>                 in the community
>                 about changing ubuntu's well known six month release
>                 schedule, and
>                 switching to a rolling release model. This would mean
>                 that new versions
>                 of programs will arrive in ubuntu when they are deemed
>                 ready, rather
>                 than on a six month cycle. The LTS (Long Term Support)
>                 releases would
>                 continue to exist in their current form. You can read
>                 more about the
>                 proposal here [1].
>                
>                 Since switching to a rolling release will clearly have
>                 an impact on our
>                 work, so I was wondering how other translators feel
>                 about this proposed
>                 change. After we have discussed this, I will create
>                 summary of the
>                 points raised here, so that our position on this
>                 proposal is clear for
>                 the wider community.
>                
>                 On the positive side, translation effort does not have
>                 to be condensed
>                 into a short window between UI Freeze an the
>                 TranslationsDeadline, which
>                 should give us all more time to complete translations.
>                 Also, if programs
>                 are updated more frequently, the amount of new strings
>                 in each release
>                 will also be smaller, which again makes translating
>                 easier.
>                
>                 If updates are more frequent, this could also remove
>                 the need for
>                 langpack updates, which have been lacking of late
>                 anyway.
>                
>                 The main negative side is the risk of regressions in
>                 translation of
>                 programs. If the new version of a program is released
>                 before translators
>                 have had time to update all translations, users will
>                 be faced with a
>                 program that is suddenly only partly translated. This
>                 is a serious
>                 usability problem with the Dash and HUD, since these
>                 are text-based
>                 tools. For example, I'm currently running the Dutch
>                 beta of 13.04, and
>                 many of the search terms I use to start programs
>                 (Dash) or interact with
>                 program menus (HUD) do not work, since the
>                 translations are not
>                 completed yet. If we switch to a rolling release, each
>                 new version of a
>                 program has a chance of breaking the users workflow by
>                 removing
>                 localised terms the user relied on for the Dash or
>                 HUD. Clearly, this
>                 would not be acceptable.
>                
>        
>        
>         I see the same thing. Many strings in Dash already translated
>         in Launchpad but we have no langpacks.
>         So UI is not completely translated and we can't check the
>         correctnes.
>         Maybe this is a bug?
>        
>        
>          
>                 Tools needed: There would have to be some way that
>                 translators get
>                 notified when the new version of a program is about to
>                 land. I'm
>                 guessing this is not a difficult thing to accomplish,
>                 and could be as
>                 simple as sending an automatic message to the
>                 ubuntu-translators list
>                 when a new version of a program enters the 'proposed'
>                 repository.
>                
>                 Those are my thoughts on the subject, what do you
>                 think?
>                
>                 Regards,
>                 Redmar
>                
>                 --
>                 Ubuntu Dutch Translators
>                
>                 [1]
>                 https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2013-February/036537.html
>                
>                
>                
>                 --
>                 ubuntu-translators mailing list
>                 [hidden email]
>                 https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
>                
>        
>        
>        
>         --
>         ubuntu-translators mailing list
>         [hidden email]
>         https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
>        
>
>
>
> --
> Jonathan Aquilina

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Re: Translating a rolling release

Milo Casagrande-2
In reply to this post by Redmar-3
Thanks for starting this discussion!

On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Redmar <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On the positive side, translation effort does not have to be condensed
> into a short window between UI Freeze an the TranslationsDeadline, which
> should give us all more time to complete translations. Also, if programs
> are updated more frequently, the amount of new strings in each release
> will also be smaller, which again makes translating easier.
>
> If updates are more frequent, this could also remove the need for
> langpack updates, which have been lacking of late anyway.

I still think you will need a langpack, since translations should be
shipped in that way.
The problem is that we will need more frequent langpacks; langpacks
that lately have been lacking.

> The main negative side is the risk of regressions in translation of
> programs. If the new version of a program is released before translators
> have had time to update all translations, users will be faced with a
> program that is suddenly only partly translated.

Indeed, but in a rolling-release style we should, and ideally would,
have more frequent langpacks and the possibility to update
translations more often (also to fix typos and errors).
The drawback I see is also on the perceived quality of the
translations: shorter times mean less time to review and to catch
errors.

Translation teams might enter more a "review" mode with that process in place.

> This is a serious
> usability problem with the Dash and HUD, since these are text-based
> tools. For example, I'm currently running the Dutch beta of 13.04, and
> many of the search terms I use to start programs (Dash) or interact with
> program menus (HUD) do not work, since the translations are not
> completed yet. If we switch to a rolling release, each new version of a
> program has a chance of breaking the users workflow by removing
> localised terms the user relied on for the Dash or HUD. Clearly, this
> would not be acceptable.

It is not acceptable if you consider each rolling-release to be
rock-solid as a normal release, or as close to it.
Personally, I do not, and if such a change will happen (also, it looks
less likely), I will suggest to use LTSes, as they would be guaranteed
to be the stable ones.

> Tools needed: There would have to be some way that translators get
> notified when the new version of a program is about to land. I'm
> guessing this is not a difficult thing to accomplish, and could be as
> simple as sending an automatic message to the ubuntu-translators list
> when a new version of a program enters the 'proposed' repository.

We need to consider also documentation here: we ship documentation
with the OS, and it is necessary to coordinate with the docs team as
well.
Luckily translations of the docs are now exported with the langpack,
but that, if I'm not wrong, needs to be triggered manually (langpacks
by default are not "full", and should contain only application, not
docs translations).

We should have policies in place between devs/translators/writers,
like Gnome has to request freeze breaks and such, policies that should
be followed though.

One of the problem I see is with upstream (Gnome, etc...) sync: how
that will happen, how often? I didn't read all the rolling-discussion
though, so maybe that has been addressed.
Those are things that just pop out of my mind, if anything else comes
out, I'll share it here.

Ciao.

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