Ubuntu Dutch translation team is closed. Solutions?

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Ubuntu Dutch translation team is closed. Solutions?

Adi Roiban-2
Hi,

Via the following question :
https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/rosetta/+question/64194
I found out that the Ubuntu Dutch translation team is somehow closed and
is asking new translators to work upstream.

I don't know what to think but in my opinion Ubuntu translators team
should be opened for new translators working both upstream or
downstream. Many upstream projects accept new translations only for
development version, and for example it is hard to push upstream a GNOME
translations from Hardy. There are also a couple of packages only
available in Ubuntu.

In the thread, Bert Van de Poel  states that "all the (dutch team)
members think that translating on launchpad isn't useful and that I
should translate upstream (but that isn't always possible so)."

What do you say? Do you have any suggestions about how we could help
him?

Maybe Bert Van de Poel could have sent the translations upstream, and
maybe they are not Ubuntu specific, but I feel like we could find a
solution and encourage his contribution as a Ubuntu translator.

Cheers,
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Re: Ubuntu Dutch translation team is closed. Solutions?

Milo Casagrande-3
Hello,

Adi Roiban ha scritto:

> Hi,
>
> Via the following question :
> https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/rosetta/+question/64194
> I found out that the Ubuntu Dutch translation team is somehow closed and
> is asking new translators to work upstream.
>
> I don't know what to think but in my opinion Ubuntu translators team
> should be opened for new translators working both upstream or
> downstream. Many upstream projects accept new translations only for
> development version, and for example it is hard to push upstream a GNOME
> translations from Hardy. There are also a couple of packages only
> available in Ubuntu.
>
> In the thread, Bert Van de Poel  states that "all the (dutch team)
> members think that translating on launchpad isn't useful and that I
> should translate upstream (but that isn't always possible so)."

This is rather unfortunate. As you said, there are Ubuntu specific
packages plus Ubuntu customizations of some packages (debian-installer,
fusa applet, gnome-control-center, probably synaptic too but I'm not
100% sure about it) and the Ubuntu documentation.

Translating through Launchpad is useful for Ubuntu users, as all those
specific translations will not be done otherwise, resulting in a
half-baked user experience.

Yes, it is not easy to know which are the packages that have
customizations or that are only specific to Ubuntu and is also easy to
change upstream coming translations usually by new people approaching
translations and not knowing the difference and all the implications
that lay behind.

Promoting upstream collaboration is absolutely a good thing, but there
is also the necessity to help new comers and explain them what they can
translate and what they should do if they find errors/typos in
translations, talking with and within the team is absolutely necessary
in these cases.

If inside the team there are also upstream contributors, from my POV,
thanks to their experience, they should try to help new translators
approaching the team. I'm not saying it's easy (actually it's kind of
hard), but documenting all this aspects is a good start.

> What do you say? Do you have any suggestions about how we could help
> him?

I don't know why the Dutch team reached an agreement to close the team
down, but I think it would be better to contact them privately first and
talk to them, trying to understand their motivations.

> Maybe Bert Van de Poel could have sent the translations upstream, and
> maybe they are not Ubuntu specific, but I feel like we could find a
> solution and encourage his contribution as a Ubuntu translator.

Indeed, but first I think it's important to contact the Dutch team.

Cheers.

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Milo Casagrande <[hidden email]>

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Re: Ubuntu Dutch translation team is closed. Solutions?

Matthew East
In reply to this post by Adi Roiban-2
On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 4:05 AM, Adi Roiban <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Via the following question :
> https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/rosetta/+question/64194
> I found out that the Ubuntu Dutch translation team is somehow closed and
> is asking new translators to work upstream.

This, if true, is extremely worrying. The Dutch translation team
contains many experienced contributors to Ubuntu (I've copied some of
them into this email) and I don't think they would intentionally wish
to subvert one of the fundamental policies of Ubuntu (making the
software available in the user's own language) for Dutch speakers.
Clearly there are a lot of Ubuntu-specific strings, and Ubuntu
documentation is only translatable through Launchpad, so an active
translation team for Ubuntu in Launchpad is absolutely essential.

Let's find out what the problem is, if any, and take it from there.

--
Matthew East
http://www.mdke.org
gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF

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Re: Ubuntu Dutch translation team is closed. Solutions?

Kenneth Nielsen
Maybe there is a bit of a misunderstanding here. There is a difference
between the team being closed down, i.e. no work being done at all,
and the team being closed, which just mean that you cannot become a
member of the team before you are approved. Closing the team is from
my POV a necessity to assure quality and the Danish team is closed,
but it is certainly not closed down ;) (More like slightly dormant,
until we get a way to distinguish between packages that contain Ubuntu
specific strings and those that don't ;)

Regards Kenneth Nielsen

2009/3/20 Matthew East <[hidden email]>:

> On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 4:05 AM, Adi Roiban <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Via the following question :
>> https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/rosetta/+question/64194
>> I found out that the Ubuntu Dutch translation team is somehow closed and
>> is asking new translators to work upstream.
>
> This, if true, is extremely worrying. The Dutch translation team
> contains many experienced contributors to Ubuntu (I've copied some of
> them into this email) and I don't think they would intentionally wish
> to subvert one of the fundamental policies of Ubuntu (making the
> software available in the user's own language) for Dutch speakers.
> Clearly there are a lot of Ubuntu-specific strings, and Ubuntu
> documentation is only translatable through Launchpad, so an active
> translation team for Ubuntu in Launchpad is absolutely essential.
>
> Let's find out what the problem is, if any, and take it from there.
>
> --
> Matthew East
> http://www.mdke.org
> gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF
>
> --
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> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
>

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Re: Ubuntu Dutch translation team is closed. Solutions?

Adi Roiban-2
On Fri, 2009-03-20 at 11:56 +0100, Kenneth Nielsen wrote:
> Maybe there is a bit of a misunderstanding here. There is a difference
> between the team being closed down, i.e. no work being done at all,
> and the team being closed, which just mean that you cannot become a
> member of the team before you are approved. Closing the team is from
> my POV a necessity to assure quality and the Danish team is closed,
> but it is certainly not closed down ;) (More like slightly dormant,
> until we get a way to distinguish between packages that contain Ubuntu
> specific strings and those that don't ;)

I agree with you and I also think that quality is more important than
quantity.

Basicaly we should ask Bert Van de Poel to send his translations to the
Dutch team and one of the team members will review the translatons made
by Bert. Is that correct?

Or the Ubuntu Dutch team is only reviewing Ubuntu specific translations
and all other translations should go upstream?

Based on the Greek team's list, i have started a list of Ubuntu specific
packages:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslatingUbuntu/UbuntuSpecificTranslations

I hope this can help you distinguish Ubuntu specific packages. Feel free
to improve the list :)

Keep up the good work! :)
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Re: Ubuntu Dutch translation team is closed. Solutions?

Wouter Bolsterlee-3
2009-03-20 klockan 13:18 skrev Adi Roiban:
> Basicaly we should ask Bert Van de Poel to send his translations to the
> Dutch team and one of the team members will review the translatons made
> by Bert. Is that correct?

Yes, at least that's how I understand the Ubuntu Dutch Translators'
policies, which are modelled on the Gnome upstream policies. (Note that I'm
"just" the upstream guy ;))

> Or the Ubuntu Dutch team is only reviewing Ubuntu specific translations
> and all other translations should go upstream?

Anything that is not Ubuntu specific should be primarily translated
upstream. Sometimes initial translations for a non-Ubuntu specific package
come from a downstream contributor, but in the end it's best to maintain all
translations as close the source as possible (i.e. upstream).

    — Wouter

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Re: Ubuntu Dutch translation team is closed. Solutions?

Dennis Kaarsemaker
In reply to this post by Matthew East
On vr, 2009-03-20 at 10:39 +0000, Matthew East wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 4:05 AM, Adi Roiban <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Via the following question :
> > https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/rosetta/+question/64194
> > I found out that the Ubuntu Dutch translation team is somehow closed and
> > is asking new translators to work upstream.
>
> This, if true, is extremely worrying. The Dutch translation team
> contains many experienced contributors to Ubuntu (I've copied some of
> them into this email) and I don't think they would intentionally wish
> to subvert one of the fundamental policies of Ubuntu (making the
> software available in the user's own language) for Dutch speakers.
> Clearly there are a lot of Ubuntu-specific strings, and Ubuntu
> documentation is only translatable through Launchpad, so an active
> translation team for Ubuntu in Launchpad is absolutely essential.
>
> Let's find out what the problem is, if any, and take it from there.
The team is not closed, but due to lots of quality issues we had in the
past, we're not accepting just anyone. Jeroen calls the problem legacy,
but it has been fixed only very recently in launchpad after waiting and
complaining for years.

On the ubuntu-nl forum thread quoted in that question it is also
explained that until we as a team have proper procedures for this, the
team stays closed as we don't want this happening again. The Danish team
are doing the same apparently.

If someone show he knows how to handle translations, (eg, don't touch
upstreams in LP if they accept po files as well), sure he's welcome.
--
Dennis K.

The universe tends towards maximum irony. Don't push it.

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Re: Ubuntu Dutch translation team is closed. Solutions?

Adi Roiban-2
On Fri, 2009-03-20 at 18:05 +0100, Dennis Kaarsemaker wrote:

> On vr, 2009-03-20 at 10:39 +0000, Matthew East wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 4:05 AM, Adi Roiban <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Via the following question :
> > > https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/rosetta/+question/64194
> > > I found out that the Ubuntu Dutch translation team is somehow closed and
> > > is asking new translators to work upstream.
> >
> > This, if true, is extremely worrying. The Dutch translation team
> > contains many experienced contributors to Ubuntu (I've copied some of
> > them into this email) and I don't think they would intentionally wish
> > to subvert one of the fundamental policies of Ubuntu (making the
> > software available in the user's own language) for Dutch speakers.
> > Clearly there are a lot of Ubuntu-specific strings, and Ubuntu
> > documentation is only translatable through Launchpad, so an active
> > translation team for Ubuntu in Launchpad is absolutely essential.
> >
> > Let's find out what the problem is, if any, and take it from there.
>
> The team is not closed, but due to lots of quality issues we had in the
> past, we're not accepting just anyone. Jeroen calls the problem legacy,
> but it has been fixed only very recently in launchpad after waiting and
> complaining for years.
>
> On the ubuntu-nl forum thread quoted in that question it is also
> explained that until we as a team have proper procedures for this, the
> team stays closed as we don't want this happening again. The Danish team
> are doing the same apparently.
>
> If someone show he knows how to handle translations, (eg, don't touch
> upstreams in LP if they accept po files as well), sure he's welcome.

Thank you all for your help. This problem is solved :).

Also some of the upstream import problems should be now fixed in
Rosetta.

As far as I understand the team is not closed, it's only that new
memberships is moderated and new translators should prove they know how
to deal with translations in Ubuntu.

I agree with you! Keep up the good work!
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Adi Roiban


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Re: Ubuntu Dutch translation team is closed. Solutions?

S. Schauenburg
Adi Roiban wrote:

> On Fri, 2009-03-20 at 18:05 +0100, Dennis Kaarsemaker wrote:
>  
>> On vr, 2009-03-20 at 10:39 +0000, Matthew East wrote:
>>    
>>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 4:05 AM, Adi Roiban <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>      
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Via the following question :
>>>> https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/rosetta/+question/64194
>>>> I found out that the Ubuntu Dutch translation team is somehow closed and
>>>> is asking new translators to work upstream.
>>>>        
>>> This, if true, is extremely worrying. The Dutch translation team
>>> contains many experienced contributors to Ubuntu (I've copied some of
>>> them into this email) and I don't think they would intentionally wish
>>> to subvert one of the fundamental policies of Ubuntu (making the
>>> software available in the user's own language) for Dutch speakers.
>>> Clearly there are a lot of Ubuntu-specific strings, and Ubuntu
>>> documentation is only translatable through Launchpad, so an active
>>> translation team for Ubuntu in Launchpad is absolutely essential.
>>>
>>> Let's find out what the problem is, if any, and take it from there.
>>>      
>> The team is not closed, but due to lots of quality issues we had in the
>> past, we're not accepting just anyone. Jeroen calls the problem legacy,
>> but it has been fixed only very recently in launchpad after waiting and
>> complaining for years.
>>
>> On the ubuntu-nl forum thread quoted in that question it is also
>> explained that until we as a team have proper procedures for this, the
>> team stays closed as we don't want this happening again. The Danish team
>> are doing the same apparently.
>>
>> If someone show he knows how to handle translations, (eg, don't touch
>> upstreams in LP if they accept po files as well), sure he's welcome.
>>    
>
> Thank you all for your help. This problem is solved :).
>
> Also some of the upstream import problems should be now fixed in
> Rosetta.
>
> As far as I understand the team is not closed, it's only that new
> memberships is moderated and new translators should prove they know how
> to deal with translations in Ubuntu.
>
> I agree with you! Keep up the good work!
>  
Your assumption is correct. We decided to clean up the translator team
and make it more active again (without losing quality). In the past we
did have issues with translations done by 'fly-by' translators, either
poor translations or ones with wrong settings (forcing 'custom' instead
of 'upstream' translation, when there was no problems with the upstream
translation). So we want to make sure new translators know the rules of
the game and know where/how to access available resources. Note that we
are currently setting up the team the right way, including better
procedures for joining/leaving the team, a resource page etc.

Regards,


Sebastian

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Re: Ubuntu Dutch translation team is closed. Solutions?

bruno_
In reply to this post by Adi Roiban-2
Le Friday 20 March 2009 13:18:02 Adi Roiban, vous avez écrit :

Hi,


> Based on the Greek team's list, i have started a list of Ubuntu specific
> packages:
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslatingUbuntu/UbuntuSpecificTranslations
>
> I hope this can help you distinguish Ubuntu specific packages. Feel free
> to improve the list :)

This would be helpfull for every Translation Team. We also have this kind of
list for French translators :
http://doc.ubuntu-fr.org/groupetraducteur#traductions_pour_jaunty_9.04


debian-installer is not a specific Ubuntu package, but there's some strings
that have been modified by Ubuntu developpers.

What is "hdtest" ? I guess that you mean hwtest ;) If so, the new package
for jaunty is named 'checkbox':

https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/checkbox

I didn't find templates for Wubi and Umenu in Jaunty, but translations are
avaible in TRUNK :

https://translations.launchpad.net/wubi/trunk/+translations

https://translations.launchpad.net/umenu/trunk/+translations

There's new translation templates for  desktop notifications in Jaunty :

https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+sources/indicator-
applet/+translate
https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+sources/evolution-
indicator/+translate
https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+sources/pidgin-
libnotify/+translate


Cheers,
--
Bruno

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