Unity is not working.

[Kris Douglas-3]

Hello,

Linux Mint is higher in the rankings than Ubuntu.
I have just come off the phone with a customer, we write web
applications and we prefer they use Google Chrome because we're
planning to write a plugin and all sorts, but that is irrelevant.

This customer called in, asked if he could install chrome on his new
Ubuntu desktop. I thought, "Great, another Ubuntu user in the world".
I got him to open Firefox and download TeamViewer (we have a premium
license) so I could show him how to install Chrome. We went through
the stages, got it installed and working, but then, he asked where to
open TeamViewer. He said "It's not on the desktop icons down the left"
and I directed him to open the applications menu "What applications
menu?".

This person is not stupid, however he did not know where the unity
menu (or whatever it's called) was located. We spent around 15 minutes
trying to get to the stage where he could open TeamViewer. It ended up
me asking to type "Ctrl+Alt+T" to which he replied "Oh a terminal,
ok".

We had TeamViewer running in seconds.

Now what is the problem with this? A user that doesn't know how to
open the applications menu must raise alarm bells somewhere. He has
has this machine for 6 weeks thinking it only had the icons down the
left installed on it. (i.e the Unity Dock). Now someone could say to
me "why didn't he read the manual?" The answer to that question is
"Why should he need to?". Not even my Nan when she got her new Windows
7 laptop (after previously never using windows 7) read a manual, or
needed to.

Why is it that Unity requires the user to be an expert. A picture of
the ubuntu logo means a lot to us, but to someone who goes and buys a
cheap computer it means jack all. They wouldn't think to click there
there is no hit that explains it's existence.

So the question, I ask, is why is Linux Mint higher in the rankings
than Ubuntu. The answer is simple, no joe average can use Ubuntu with
ease now! You login to mint, you have a menu that says, believe it or
not, "MENU" and when you click it, again, believe it or not, it shows
you the program categories you can choose from (e.g "Oh, I want the
Internet, oh look Firefox, I know what that is."). It makes sense to
the user, it is what they are used to and it is a very friendly and
comfortable environment.

The electrician I work with on this software has been telling me for
two years now, meaning NO offence to anyone at all, but "The user is
stupid". I know this is not the most tactful way to put it, but after
hearing this for two years I know what he means. Basically the
principle is, the programmer is able to use the software, because he
made it, he is an expert. If you give that to a user, who has no idea,
he will have no idea how to use it. I am now writing software that
explains itself, that has buttons that are obvious to the user, and it
works. The number of phone calls we get are severely reduced, and the
customer satisfaction is up massively. Us geeks who are writing this
software have no idea how users think most of the time, this is
because we are in theory "more intelligent" which is not necessarily
true, but when it comes to the software we are, we understand the
terminology.

I could talk about this for hours, and I am going to write a blog post
about it, people will have a go at me because I'm bashing the "perfect
distribution". But seriously, think about what I have said, and test
it on people, and then tell me I am wrong. Turn of the "I am a geek I
know everything about Ubuntu" for a minute, and imagine you had no
idea what ubuntu was or how unity worked. You wouldn't have the
foggiest idea.

I would appreciate feedback, positive or negative on this. I don't
want another "Unity is better because it's better" or "gnome2 should
be brought back because it's what I like". That's not how it works.

Unity is honestly broken, someone must understand this, I will happily
speak to people in person or on email in more detail about this. I am
willing to help, but you have to understand first that Unity is not
quite there yet first.


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 www.krisd.eu

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[James Morrissey]

Without stating any preferences on a thread which is likely to bring
forth opinions: As i understand it, the current Unity Interface is (at
least in part) the result of the sort of testing you are describing:

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/02/mark-shuttleworth-explains-dodge-ditch-decision-in-precise/

https://lists.launchpad.net/unity-design/msg07682.html

j

On 22 February 2012 13:43, Kris Douglas <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Linux Mint is higher in the rankings than Ubuntu.
> I have just come off the phone with a customer, we write web
> applications and we prefer they use Google Chrome because we're
> planning to write a plugin and all sorts, but that is irrelevant.
>
> This customer called in, asked if he could install chrome on his new
> Ubuntu desktop. I thought, "Great, another Ubuntu user in the world".
> I got him to open Firefox and download TeamViewer (we have a premium
> license) so I could show him how to install Chrome. We went through
> the stages, got it installed and working, but then, he asked where to
> open TeamViewer. He said "It's not on the desktop icons down the left"
> and I directed him to open the applications menu "What applications
> menu?".
>
> This person is not stupid, however he did not know where the unity
> menu (or whatever it's called) was located. We spent around 15 minutes
> trying to get to the stage where he could open TeamViewer. It ended up
> me asking to type "Ctrl+Alt+T" to which he replied "Oh a terminal,
> ok".
>
> We had TeamViewer running in seconds.
>
> Now what is the problem with this? A user that doesn't know how to
> open the applications menu must raise alarm bells somewhere. He has
> has this machine for 6 weeks thinking it only had the icons down the
> left installed on it. (i.e the Unity Dock). Now someone could say to
> me "why didn't he read the manual?" The answer to that question is
> "Why should he need to?". Not even my Nan when she got her new Windows
> 7 laptop (after previously never using windows 7) read a manual, or
> needed to.
>
> Why is it that Unity requires the user to be an expert. A picture of
> the ubuntu logo means a lot to us, but to someone who goes and buys a
> cheap computer it means jack all. They wouldn't think to click there
> there is no hit that explains it's existence.
>
> So the question, I ask, is why is Linux Mint higher in the rankings
> than Ubuntu. The answer is simple, no joe average can use Ubuntu with
> ease now! You login to mint, you have a menu that says, believe it or
> not, "MENU" and when you click it, again, believe it or not, it shows
> you the program categories you can choose from (e.g "Oh, I want the
> Internet, oh look Firefox, I know what that is."). It makes sense to
> the user, it is what they are used to and it is a very friendly and
> comfortable environment.
>
> The electrician I work with on this software has been telling me for
> two years now, meaning NO offence to anyone at all, but "The user is
> stupid". I know this is not the most tactful way to put it, but after
> hearing this for two years I know what he means. Basically the
> principle is, the programmer is able to use the software, because he
> made it, he is an expert. If you give that to a user, who has no idea,
> he will have no idea how to use it. I am now writing software that
> explains itself, that has buttons that are obvious to the user, and it
> works. The number of phone calls we get are severely reduced, and the
> customer satisfaction is up massively. Us geeks who are writing this
> software have no idea how users think most of the time, this is
> because we are in theory "more intelligent" which is not necessarily
> true, but when it comes to the software we are, we understand the
> terminology.
>
> I could talk about this for hours, and I am going to write a blog post
> about it, people will have a go at me because I'm bashing the "perfect
> distribution". But seriously, think about what I have said, and test
> it on people, and then tell me I am wrong. Turn of the "I am a geek I
> know everything about Ubuntu" for a minute, and imagine you had no
> idea what ubuntu was or how unity worked. You wouldn't have the
> foggiest idea.
>
> I would appreciate feedback, positive or negative on this. I don't
> want another "Unity is better because it's better" or "gnome2 should
> be brought back because it's what I like". That's not how it works.
>
> Unity is honestly broken, someone must understand this, I will happily
> speak to people in person or on email in more detail about this. I am
> willing to help, but you have to understand first that Unity is not
> quite there yet first.
>
>
> --
> Regards, Kris Douglas.
>  www.krisd.eu
>
> --
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/

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[James Morrissey]

Also: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/02/stats-show-ubuntu-not-losing-ground-to-linux-mint/

On 22 February 2012 13:49, James Morrissey <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Without stating any preferences on a thread which is likely to bring
> forth opinions: As i understand it, the current Unity Interface is (at
> least in part) the result of the sort of testing you are describing:
>
> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/02/mark-shuttleworth-explains-dodge-ditch-decision-in-precise/
>
> https://lists.launchpad.net/unity-design/msg07682.html
>
> j
>
> On 22 February 2012 13:43, Kris Douglas <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Linux Mint is higher in the rankings than Ubuntu.
>> I have just come off the phone with a customer, we write web
>> applications and we prefer they use Google Chrome because we're
>> planning to write a plugin and all sorts, but that is irrelevant.
>>
>> This customer called in, asked if he could install chrome on his new
>> Ubuntu desktop. I thought, "Great, another Ubuntu user in the world".
>> I got him to open Firefox and download TeamViewer (we have a premium
>> license) so I could show him how to install Chrome. We went through
>> the stages, got it installed and working, but then, he asked where to
>> open TeamViewer. He said "It's not on the desktop icons down the left"
>> and I directed him to open the applications menu "What applications
>> menu?".
>>
>> This person is not stupid, however he did not know where the unity
>> menu (or whatever it's called) was located. We spent around 15 minutes
>> trying to get to the stage where he could open TeamViewer. It ended up
>> me asking to type "Ctrl+Alt+T" to which he replied "Oh a terminal,
>> ok".
>>
>> We had TeamViewer running in seconds.
>>
>> Now what is the problem with this? A user that doesn't know how to
>> open the applications menu must raise alarm bells somewhere. He has
>> has this machine for 6 weeks thinking it only had the icons down the
>> left installed on it. (i.e the Unity Dock). Now someone could say to
>> me "why didn't he read the manual?" The answer to that question is
>> "Why should he need to?". Not even my Nan when she got her new Windows
>> 7 laptop (after previously never using windows 7) read a manual, or
>> needed to.
>>
>> Why is it that Unity requires the user to be an expert. A picture of
>> the ubuntu logo means a lot to us, but to someone who goes and buys a
>> cheap computer it means jack all. They wouldn't think to click there
>> there is no hit that explains it's existence.
>>
>> So the question, I ask, is why is Linux Mint higher in the rankings
>> than Ubuntu. The answer is simple, no joe average can use Ubuntu with
>> ease now! You login to mint, you have a menu that says, believe it or
>> not, "MENU" and when you click it, again, believe it or not, it shows
>> you the program categories you can choose from (e.g "Oh, I want the
>> Internet, oh look Firefox, I know what that is."). It makes sense to
>> the user, it is what they are used to and it is a very friendly and
>> comfortable environment.
>>
>> The electrician I work with on this software has been telling me for
>> two years now, meaning NO offence to anyone at all, but "The user is
>> stupid". I know this is not the most tactful way to put it, but after
>> hearing this for two years I know what he means. Basically the
>> principle is, the programmer is able to use the software, because he
>> made it, he is an expert. If you give that to a user, who has no idea,
>> he will have no idea how to use it. I am now writing software that
>> explains itself, that has buttons that are obvious to the user, and it
>> works. The number of phone calls we get are severely reduced, and the
>> customer satisfaction is up massively. Us geeks who are writing this
>> software have no idea how users think most of the time, this is
>> because we are in theory "more intelligent" which is not necessarily
>> true, but when it comes to the software we are, we understand the
>> terminology.
>>
>> I could talk about this for hours, and I am going to write a blog post
>> about it, people will have a go at me because I'm bashing the "perfect
>> distribution". But seriously, think about what I have said, and test
>> it on people, and then tell me I am wrong. Turn of the "I am a geek I
>> know everything about Ubuntu" for a minute, and imagine you had no
>> idea what ubuntu was or how unity worked. You wouldn't have the
>> foggiest idea.
>>
>> I would appreciate feedback, positive or negative on this. I don't
>> want another "Unity is better because it's better" or "gnome2 should
>> be brought back because it's what I like". That's not how it works.
>>
>> Unity is honestly broken, someone must understand this, I will happily
>> speak to people in person or on email in more detail about this. I am
>> willing to help, but you have to understand first that Unity is not
>> quite there yet first.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Regards, Kris Douglas.
>>  www.krisd.eu
>>
>> --
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/

--
James Morrissey
Research Officer
Refugee Studies Centre | Department of International Development |
University of Oxford
3 Mansfield Road | Oxford, United Kingdom | OX1 3TB

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[Kris Douglas-3]

On 22 February 2012 13:49, James Morrissey <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Without stating any preferences on a thread which is likely to bring
> forth opinions: As i understand it, the current Unity Interface is (at
> least in part) the result of the sort of testing you are describing:
>
> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/02/mark-shuttleworth-explains-dodge-ditch-decision-in-precise/
>
> https://lists.launchpad.net/unity-design/msg07682.html
>
> j

Hello James,

That is entirely related to the fact the bar dodged windows, and yes I
believe that is to be discontinued. However, that is not the problem
to be honest, the the "iconfication" and hiding of menus and
maximising each window... etc etc.

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 www.krisd.eu

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[Simon Greenwood]

I can understand where you're coming from and yes, the visual metaphor does struggle a bit beyond the default applications on the dash but the thinking presumably was that there is a start button from which, as with Gnome (and Windows) all other installed software is installed. I understand and like Unity as I've come from OS X, which is where the visual toolbar plus other applications has come from, and remember that it wasn't until Leopard that there was an Applications icon on the Dock by default. I think this should be an option, and there should be a way of making it - that clicking on a dash icon gives a list of available applications in the Gnome 2 way, but that it should a use choice.

s/

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[Kris Douglas-3]

On 22 February 2012 13:55, James Morrissey <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Also: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/02/stats-show-ubuntu-not-losing-ground-to-linux-mint/
>

I have to be honest I am tentative to take the posts on OMG Ubuntu as
fact, I am not saying they are lying but sometimes they lack certain
intricate details that would otherwise be included in online
journalism.

I actually really like OMG as a place to go, but I know a lot(5-10) of
people are hearing about Linux Mint more than ubuntu nowadays.

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[James Morrissey]

On 22 February 2012 13:56, Kris Douglas <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/02/mark-shuttleworth-explains-dodge-ditch-decision-in-precise/
>>
>> https://lists.launchpad.net/unity-design/msg07682.html
>>
>> j

> That is entirely related to the fact the bar dodged windows, and yes I
> believe that is to be discontinued. However, that is not the problem
> to be honest, the the "iconfication" and hiding of menus and
> maximising each window... etc etc.

Yes, in this instance. My assumption is that a variety of the features
you are describing are tested in a similar manner. I suppose i should
have placed your comment in here:

"But seriously, think about what I have said, and test
it on people, and then tell me I am wrong."

j

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[James Morrissey]

> I have to be honest I am tentative to take the posts on OMG Ubuntu as
> fact, I am not saying they are lying but sometimes they lack certain
> intricate details that would otherwise be included in online
> journalism.
>
> I actually really like OMG as a place to go, but I know a lot(5-10) of
> people are hearing about Linux Mint more than ubuntu nowadays.

Both fair enough points. I guess its simply worth noting that
statements about Mint's popularity over Ubuntu are, themselves, likely
the result of simple analyses of a process which is hard to
determine/observe.

j

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[Dave Morley-3]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 22/02/12 13:56, Kris Douglas wrote:

> On 22 February 2012 13:49, James Morrissey
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Without stating any preferences on a thread which is likely to
>> bring forth opinions: As i understand it, the current Unity
>> Interface is (at least in part) the result of the sort of testing
>> you are describing:
>>
>> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/02/mark-shuttleworth-explains-dodge-ditch-decision-in-precise/
>>
>>
>>

https://lists.launchpad.net/unity-design/msg07682.html

>>
>> j
>
> Hello James,
>
> That is entirely related to the fact the bar dodged windows, and
> yes I believe that is to be discontinued. However, that is not the
> problem to be honest, the the "iconfication" and hiding of menus
> and maximising each window... etc etc.
>

Kris

I'm confused could you not say click on the big ubuntu logo, in the
search field type in the name of the application you are after?

Also now in 12.04 if an application is installed via Software-center
and it has a valid .desktop file it is automatically added to the
launcher bar which it wasn't before so then you get to manually remove
any you don't want.

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I love my job :)
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[Kris Douglas-3]

On 22 February 2012 14:03, James Morrissey <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> I have to be honest I am tentative to take the posts on OMG Ubuntu as
>> fact, I am not saying they are lying but sometimes they lack certain
>> intricate details that would otherwise be included in online
>> journalism.
>>
>> I actually really like OMG as a place to go, but I know a lot(5-10) of
>> people are hearing about Linux Mint more than ubuntu nowadays.
>
> Both fair enough points. I guess its simply worth noting that
> statements about Mint's popularity over Ubuntu are, themselves, likely
> the result of simple analyses of a process which is hard to
> determine/observe.

I absolutely agree, I understand it's hardly fair to base this
entirely on DistroWatch, it is based on the feedback I have received
from my customers, (quite a few), my colleagues and most effectively
family and friends.



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[Kris Douglas-3]

On 22 February 2012 14:06, Dave Morley <[hidden email]> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 22/02/12 13:56, Kris Douglas wrote:
>> On 22 February 2012 13:49, James Morrissey
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Without stating any preferences on a thread which is likely to
>>> bring forth opinions: As i understand it, the current Unity
>>> Interface is (at least in part) the result of the sort of testing
>>> you are describing:
>>>
>>> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/02/mark-shuttleworth-explains-dodge-ditch-decision-in-precise/
>>>
>>>
>>>
> https://lists.launchpad.net/unity-design/msg07682.html
>>>
>>> j
>>
>> Hello James,
>>
>> That is entirely related to the fact the bar dodged windows, and
>> yes I believe that is to be discontinued. However, that is not the
>> problem to be honest, the the "iconfication" and hiding of menus
>> and maximising each window... etc etc.
>>
> Kris
>
> I'm confused could you not say click on the big ubuntu logo, in the
> search field type in the name of the application you are after?
>
> Also now in 12.04 if an application is installed via Software-center
> and it has a valid .desktop file it is automatically added to the
> launcher bar which it wasn't before so then you get to manually remove
> any you don't want.

I said those exact words, he didn't know the logo, and didn't
understand why he couldn't just look through a list.

It took me about 15-20mins to get him to the stage where he understood
the unity launcher box. He thought it was a free trial which only came
with the icons on the left and intended to buy windows to replace it.



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[Alan Bell-5]

On 22/02/12 13:43, Kris Douglas wrote:
> Unity is honestly broken, someone must understand this, I will happily
> speak to people in person or on email in more detail about this.

code talks. Fix it the way you want it and submit a merge request.

Alan.

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[Kris Douglas-3]

On 22 February 2012 14:11, Alan Bell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 22/02/12 13:43, Kris Douglas wrote:
>>
>> Unity is honestly broken, someone must understand this, I will happily
>> speak to people in person or on email in more detail about this.
>
>
> code talks. Fix it the way you want it and submit a merge request.
>
> Alan.

I am primarily a windows/ web developer (sadly). However I am not
going to say I don't have the time or anything like that. I will
happily attempt a mockup.



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[Avi Greenbury-4]

Kris Douglas  wrote:
> Linux Mint is higher in the rankings than Ubuntu.

Yes. And Scotland is subsidising the UK.

> He has has this machine for 6 weeks thinking it only had the icons
> down the left installed on it. (i.e the Unity Dock). Now someone
> could say to me "why didn't he read the manual?" The answer to that
> question is "Why should he need to?". Not even my Nan when she got
> her new Windows 7 laptop (after previously never using windows 7)
> read a manual, or needed to.

No, because Windows 7 isn't mechanically different in that respect from
Windows 95 or any of the intervening versions. Want apps? Click the
bottom-left corner. If she's ever used Windows before she can use
Solitaire on Windows 7.

> Why is it that Unity requires the user to be an expert.

It doesn't. It requires the user to know how to use the computer, which
is basically what everything else does. In fact, all you've pointed
out so far is that the guy didn't know where the button for the search
thingy is because it's not explicity labelled 'click here to search for
something'. What else required expert knowledge?

I'm a bit bemused at the thought of somebody wanting to run more
applications and not then going on to try to work out how to do it
either by asking or trying.

> A picture of the ubuntu logo means a lot to us, but to someone who
> goes and buys a cheap computer it means jack all. They wouldn't think
> to click there there is no hit that explains it's existence.

It's roughly the same as the Windows 7 one. It's the logo of the OS in a
circle.

> So the question, I ask, is why is Linux Mint higher in the rankings
> than Ubuntu.

Because of how those rankings work. I'm sure I could concoct a ranking
where Suse's winning if you like.

> The answer is simple, no joe average can use Ubuntu with ease now!
> You login to mint, you have a menu that says, believe it or not,
> "MENU" and when you click it, again, believe it or not, it shows you
> the program categories you can choose from (e.g "Oh, I want the
> Internet, oh look Firefox, I know what that is."). It makes sense to
> the user, it is what they are used to and it is a very friendly and
> comfortable environment.

That's lovely and all, but all it takes to get to that sort of
proficiency on Unity is to say 'click the button in the top left to
get a search box'. I know several 'joe average's using Unity happily.

> I could talk about this for hours, and I am going to write a blog post
> about it, people will have a go at me because I'm bashing the "perfect
> distribution". But seriously, think about what I have said, and test
> it on people, and then tell me I am wrong.

You're not wrong, but there's a very good argument to the effect that
the vast majority of users are *not* new to whatever they're using, and
thus it makes sense to pander more to the older ones. That way, rather
than having lots of newbie-friendly stuff that gets in the way you
simply have a very easy-to-use but not very intuitive system.

This is, historically, the difference between Windows and *nix and is
why everything takes an incredibly long time to *do* in Windows but a
relatively long time to *learn* in *nix.

This is also one of the major criticisms of Ubuntu before Unity came
along - that it tries to be easy to use and instead gets in the way.

> Unity is honestly broken, someone must understand this, I will happily
> speak to people in person or on email in more detail about this. I am
> willing to help, but you have to understand first that Unity is not
> quite there yet first.

File bugs. Maybe accept that it's not *broken* but simply not what you
want, and instead make use of one of the other myriad options? Lots of
people are quite happy with it, why break it for them in order to fix
it for you?

I don't think anybody feels that Unity is finished or perfect (is
software ever finished?) but I think it's going quite far to say it's
fundamentally broken. It's pretty reasonable to say that at least many
of the designers are mad.

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[Dino T.-2]

He didnt know the logo but a simple "click the top left icon then type the name of the program" couldn't have been said? I got my dad at 68 years old to do that easily over the phone.


Dino Tassigiannis BA (Hons)

On 22 February 2012 14:11, Alan Bell <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 22/02/12 13:43, Kris Douglas wrote:

Unity is honestly broken, someone must understand this, I will happily
speak to people in person or on email in more detail about this.

code talks. Fix it the way you want it and submit a merge request.

Alan.

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[Barry Drake]

On 22/02/12 13:56, Kris Douglas wrote:
> That is entirely related to the fact the bar dodged windows, and yes I
> believe that is to be discontinued. However, that is not the problem
> to be honest, the the "iconfication" and hiding of menus and
> maximising each window... etc etc.

There's a neat configuration gui called MyUnity that is designed to let
you customise this among other things.  I like the 'dodging' idea.  My
daughter hates it.  It's easy to have it both ways!

Regards,        Barry.

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[Kris Douglas-3]

On 22 February 2012 14:17, Avi Greenbury <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Kris Douglas  wrote:
>> Linux Mint is higher in the rankings than Ubuntu.
>
> Yes. And Scotland is subsidising the UK.
>
>> He has has this machine for 6 weeks thinking it only had the icons
>> down the left installed on it. (i.e the Unity Dock). Now someone
>> could say to me "why didn't he read the manual?" The answer to that
>> question is "Why should he need to?". Not even my Nan when she got
>> her new Windows 7 laptop (after previously never using windows 7)
>> read a manual, or needed to.
>
> No, because Windows 7 isn't mechanically different in that respect from
> Windows 95 or any of the intervening versions. Want apps? Click the
> bottom-left corner. If she's ever used Windows before she can use
> Solitaire on Windows 7.
>
>> Why is it that Unity requires the user to be an expert.
>
> It doesn't. It requires the user to know how to use the computer, which
> is basically what everything else does. In fact, all you've pointed
> out so far is that the guy didn't know where the button for the search
> thingy is because it's not explicity labelled 'click here to search for
> something'. What else required expert knowledge?
>
> I'm a bit bemused at the thought of somebody wanting to run more
> applications and not then going on to try to work out how to do it
> either by asking or trying.
>
>> A picture of the ubuntu logo means a lot to us, but to someone who
>> goes and buys a cheap computer it means jack all. They wouldn't think
>> to click there there is no hit that explains it's existence.
>
> It's roughly the same as the Windows 7 one. It's the logo of the OS in a
> circle.
>
>> So the question, I ask, is why is Linux Mint higher in the rankings
>> than Ubuntu.
>
> Because of how those rankings work. I'm sure I could concoct a ranking
> where Suse's winning if you like.
>
>> The answer is simple, no joe average can use Ubuntu with ease now!
>> You login to mint, you have a menu that says, believe it or not,
>> "MENU" and when you click it, again, believe it or not, it shows you
>> the program categories you can choose from (e.g "Oh, I want the
>> Internet, oh look Firefox, I know what that is."). It makes sense to
>> the user, it is what they are used to and it is a very friendly and
>> comfortable environment.
>
> That's lovely and all, but all it takes to get to that sort of
> proficiency on Unity is to say 'click the button in the top left to
> get a search box'. I know several 'joe average's using Unity happily.
>
>> I could talk about this for hours, and I am going to write a blog post
>> about it, people will have a go at me because I'm bashing the "perfect
>> distribution". But seriously, think about what I have said, and test
>> it on people, and then tell me I am wrong.
>
> You're not wrong, but there's a very good argument to the effect that
> the vast majority of users are *not* new to whatever they're using, and
> thus it makes sense to pander more to the older ones. That way, rather
> than having lots of newbie-friendly stuff that gets in the way you
> simply have a very easy-to-use but not very intuitive system.
>
> This is, historically, the difference between Windows and *nix and is
> why everything takes an incredibly long time to *do* in Windows but a
> relatively long time to *learn* in *nix.
>
> This is also one of the major criticisms of Ubuntu before Unity came
> along - that it tries to be easy to use and instead gets in the way.
>
>> Unity is honestly broken, someone must understand this, I will happily
>> speak to people in person or on email in more detail about this. I am
>> willing to help, but you have to understand first that Unity is not
>> quite there yet first.
>
> File bugs. Maybe accept that it's not *broken* but simply not what you
> want, and instead make use of one of the other myriad options? Lots of
> people are quite happy with it, why break it for them in order to fix
> it for you?
>
> I don't think anybody feels that Unity is finished or perfect (is
> software ever finished?) but I think it's going quite far to say it's
> fundamentally broken. It's pretty reasonable to say that at least many
> of the designers are mad.

Thanks for your post Avi,

I do admit broken is a very opinionated way to explain this topic. I
have also already said above that the stats are certainly a moot point
and referring to them entirely is not necessarily the best idea.

The user of this system could be categorised as lazy, like my
colleague the electrician, who "can't be bothered with it"


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 www.krisd.eu

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[Kris Douglas-3]

On 22 February 2012 14:27, Kris Douglas <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 22 February 2012 14:17, Avi Greenbury <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Kris Douglas  wrote:
>>> Linux Mint is higher in the rankings than Ubuntu.
>>
>> Yes. And Scotland is subsidising the UK.
>>
>>> He has has this machine for 6 weeks thinking it only had the icons
>>> down the left installed on it. (i.e the Unity Dock). Now someone
>>> could say to me "why didn't he read the manual?" The answer to that
>>> question is "Why should he need to?". Not even my Nan when she got
>>> her new Windows 7 laptop (after previously never using windows 7)
>>> read a manual, or needed to.
>>
>> No, because Windows 7 isn't mechanically different in that respect from
>> Windows 95 or any of the intervening versions. Want apps? Click the
>> bottom-left corner. If she's ever used Windows before she can use
>> Solitaire on Windows 7.
>>
>>> Why is it that Unity requires the user to be an expert.
>>
>> It doesn't. It requires the user to know how to use the computer, which
>> is basically what everything else does. In fact, all you've pointed
>> out so far is that the guy didn't know where the button for the search
>> thingy is because it's not explicity labelled 'click here to search for
>> something'. What else required expert knowledge?
>>
>> I'm a bit bemused at the thought of somebody wanting to run more
>> applications and not then going on to try to work out how to do it
>> either by asking or trying.
>>
>>> A picture of the ubuntu logo means a lot to us, but to someone who
>>> goes and buys a cheap computer it means jack all. They wouldn't think
>>> to click there there is no hit that explains it's existence.
>>
>> It's roughly the same as the Windows 7 one. It's the logo of the OS in a
>> circle.
>>
>>> So the question, I ask, is why is Linux Mint higher in the rankings
>>> than Ubuntu.
>>
>> Because of how those rankings work. I'm sure I could concoct a ranking
>> where Suse's winning if you like.
>>
>>> The answer is simple, no joe average can use Ubuntu with ease now!
>>> You login to mint, you have a menu that says, believe it or not,
>>> "MENU" and when you click it, again, believe it or not, it shows you
>>> the program categories you can choose from (e.g "Oh, I want the
>>> Internet, oh look Firefox, I know what that is."). It makes sense to
>>> the user, it is what they are used to and it is a very friendly and
>>> comfortable environment.
>>
>> That's lovely and all, but all it takes to get to that sort of
>> proficiency on Unity is to say 'click the button in the top left to
>> get a search box'. I know several 'joe average's using Unity happily.
>>
>>> I could talk about this for hours, and I am going to write a blog post
>>> about it, people will have a go at me because I'm bashing the "perfect
>>> distribution". But seriously, think about what I have said, and test
>>> it on people, and then tell me I am wrong.
>>
>> You're not wrong, but there's a very good argument to the effect that
>> the vast majority of users are *not* new to whatever they're using, and
>> thus it makes sense to pander more to the older ones. That way, rather
>> than having lots of newbie-friendly stuff that gets in the way you
>> simply have a very easy-to-use but not very intuitive system.
>>
>> This is, historically, the difference between Windows and *nix and is
>> why everything takes an incredibly long time to *do* in Windows but a
>> relatively long time to *learn* in *nix.
>>
>> This is also one of the major criticisms of Ubuntu before Unity came
>> along - that it tries to be easy to use and instead gets in the way.
>>
>>> Unity is honestly broken, someone must understand this, I will happily
>>> speak to people in person or on email in more detail about this. I am
>>> willing to help, but you have to understand first that Unity is not
>>> quite there yet first.
>>
>> File bugs. Maybe accept that it's not *broken* but simply not what you
>> want, and instead make use of one of the other myriad options? Lots of
>> people are quite happy with it, why break it for them in order to fix
>> it for you?
>>
>> I don't think anybody feels that Unity is finished or perfect (is
>> software ever finished?) but I think it's going quite far to say it's
>> fundamentally broken. It's pretty reasonable to say that at least many
>> of the designers are mad.
>
> Thanks for your post Avi,
>
> I do admit broken is a very opinionated way to explain this topic. I
> have also already said above that the stats are certainly a moot point
> and referring to them entirely is not necessarily the best idea.
>
> The user of this system could be categorised as lazy, like my
> colleague the electrician, who "can't be bothered with it"

Sorry, Gmail misfired.

... However the system could once for the first time the user uses the
system lay an overlay over the top explaining how to use the menus,
etc.

The part in your post about the history of *nix and windows is quite
an interesting theory, I like that.

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 www.krisd.eu

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[Kris Douglas-3]

On 22 February 2012 14:18, Dino T. <[hidden email]> wrote:
> He didnt know the logo but a simple "click the top left icon then type the
> name of the program" couldn't have been said? I got my dad at 68 years old
> to do that easily over the phone.
>

Hello,

If you weren't there and you were trying to explain that it's not as
easy as it sounds. I said "click the ubuntu logo on the top of the
left hand side of the screen" He returned to me "it just flashes a
box".

He was double clicking, so I asked him to single click and the box
popped up, no problem. He was presented with a lot of icons and things
for different parts of Unity, he didn't understand the concept of
searching for the program he was after so I had to explain that, and
explain that he couldn't open a list, which was his main goal.

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[Andy Braben-2]

The user of this system could be categorised as lazy, like my
colleague the electrician, who "can't be bothered with it"

It doesn't matter what operating system is being used, if a person is being "lazy" and "can't be bothered with it" they won't be bothered by it and won't install an application or setup a printer because it is beyond them, or so they think.

If however they are full of enthusiasm and keen to learn, they will succeed in installing some software, finding it, and running it.

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Andy


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