Unity launcher ....

[Barry Drake]

Hi there ...   I used to like the way that the launcher used to slide
away when there was a window over it and re-appear when there wasn't.  
Now in Precise, we seem only to be able to have autohide or permanently
in place.   The Compiz configurator and MyUnity both seem to suggest
that I can configure settings that do the slide: they don't seem to do
that.  Anyone here know whether this is current policy on Unity or a bug?

Regards,        Barry.

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[Neil Greenwood-2]

It's policy. The decision was made after usability testing, where users got confused when first maximising a window. "where's the launcher gone now?" And because the option was being removed, the decision was also made to remove the code to reduce the maintenance requirements.

Neil.

P.S. Sorry for the brevity and top-posting, this is typed on my phone.

On Mar 23, 2012 6:50 PM, "Barry Drake" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi there ...   I used to like the way that the launcher used to slide away when there was a window over it and re-appear when there wasn't.  Now in Precise, we seem only to be able to have autohide or permanently in place.   The Compiz configurator and MyUnity both seem to suggest that I can configure settings that do the slide: they don't seem to do that.  Anyone here know whether this is current policy on Unity or a bug?
>
> Regards,        Barry.
>
> --
> Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team.
> http://ubuntuadverts.org/
>
>
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[Hakan Koseoglu-2]

On 23 March 2012 19:54, Neil Greenwood <[hidden email]> wrote:
> It's policy. The decision was made after usability testing, where users got
> confused when first maximising a window. "where's the launcher gone now?"
> And because the option was being removed, the decision was also made to
> remove the code to reduce the maintenance requirements.
<soap box>
Treating users as idiots is not a policy, it's a mistake.
As soon as I find a distribution worth installing everywhere, I'll be
switching. Mint doesn't cut the mustard. I'm a Kubuntu/Lubuntu user on
desktop and Ubuntu server  but I don't want to anymore, I don't want
to have anything with Ubuntu products.

I know the PR spin, "it's to make new users' life easy" yada yada
yada. But the new users don't discover Linux all by themselves, in
most cases someone shows them and I don't want to show and talk about
Ubuntu to anyone anymore.
</soap box>

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[Daniel Case-2]

On 23 March 2012 20:16, Hakan Koseoglu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>But the new users don't discover Linux all by themselves, in
> most cases someone shows them and I don't want to show and talk about
> Ubuntu to anyone anymore.

I discovered it myself, but I agree that the launcher should not
permanently be there. This drove me up the wall while I was testing
it, almost 10% of my screen is unusable the majority of the time (how
will that work on 9" netbooks?)

I'm still on 10.04 which I really love as a system, my menu, icons,
notifications etc are where I expect them to be, it's fast and
reliable and I know when, for example, I have two terminal windows
open, and at a glance what I have on each virtual desktop. My menus
are tucked away until I need them.

I started with 7.04 and used to be on the cutting edge right up until
10.04, I installed 10.10 (when unity first hit) and hated the
instability of the system. Now I test each release in a virtual
machine from time to time (I tested the beta for 12.04 a few days ago)

I'm not saying don't evolve, just evolve in a way that most users
agree is a good idea, I thought that was the aim of Linux? Who's
driving the development course here? The users or canonical?

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[Alan Bell]

On 23/03/12 20:16, Hakan Koseoglu wrote:

> <soap box>
> Treating users as idiots is not a policy, it's a mistake.
> As soon as I find a distribution worth installing everywhere, I'll be
> switching. Mint doesn't cut the mustard. I'm a Kubuntu/Lubuntu user on
> desktop and Ubuntu server  but I don't want to anymore, I don't want
> to have anything with Ubuntu products.
>
> I know the PR spin, "it's to make new users' life easy" yada yada
> yada. But the new users don't discover Linux all by themselves, in
> most cases someone shows them and I don't want to show and talk about
> Ubuntu to anyone anymore.
> </soap box>
>

ok, well as long as you are still using Free Software it is all good.
The dodge thing was something Mark Shuttleworth really liked too, but
when they did lots of user testing and watched the videos of people
being confused by it they dropped the concept.
there is more about the decision here
https://lists.launchpad.net/unity-design/msg07835.html

Alan

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[Colin Law-4]

On 23 March 2012 21:06, Daniel Case <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 23 March 2012 20:16, Hakan Koseoglu <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>But the new users don't discover Linux all by themselves, in
>> most cases someone shows them and I don't want to show and talk about
>> Ubuntu to anyone anymore.
>
> I discovered it myself, but I agree that the launcher should not
> permanently be there. This drove me up the wall while I was testing
> it, almost 10% of my screen is unusable the majority of the time (how
> will that work on 9" netbooks?)

It doesn't have to be there all the time, there is an option to hide
it.  It then appears when the mouse is pushed against the edge of the
screen (on 12.04)

Colin

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[Daniel Case-2]

On 23 March 2012 21:11, Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:
> It doesn't have to be there all the time, there is an option to hide
> it.  It then appears when the mouse is pushed against the edge of the
> screen (on 12.04)

I noticed this, however it often comes out when I go for the "close"
button on a window. The original "dodge" function was a perfect fit,
is there no way we can have this reinstated along with the other
options as well? That way it keeps everyone happy....

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[Neil Greenwood-2]

I know some find it a bit annoying, but Canonical didn't just decide this. They spent lots of money testing different behaviours with users with a range of experience of computers. I believe all the users tested had little experience of Linux.

Mark Shuttleworth even had to say that the results were the opposite of what he first thought before the testing.

Neil.

P.S. Sorry for the brevity, this is typed on my phone.

On Mar 23, 2012 8:17 PM, "Hakan Koseoglu" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 23 March 2012 19:54, Neil Greenwood <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > It's policy. The decision was made after usability testing, where users got
> > confused when first maximising a window. "where's the launcher gone now?"
> > And because the option was being removed, the decision was also made to
> > remove the code to reduce the maintenance requirements.
> <soap box>
> Treating users as idiots is not a policy, it's a mistake.
> As soon as I find a distribution worth installing everywhere, I'll be
> switching. Mint doesn't cut the mustard. I'm a Kubuntu/Lubuntu user on
> desktop and Ubuntu server  but I don't want to anymore, I don't want
> to have anything with Ubuntu products.
>
> I know the PR spin, "it's to make new users' life easy" yada yada
> yada. But the new users don't discover Linux all by themselves, in
> most cases someone shows them and I don't want to show and talk about
> Ubuntu to anyone anymore.
> </soap box>
>
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[Colin Law-4]

On 23 March 2012 21:16, Daniel Case <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 23 March 2012 21:11, Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> It doesn't have to be there all the time, there is an option to hide
>> it.  It then appears when the mouse is pushed against the edge of the
>> screen (on 12.04)
>
> I noticed this, however it often comes out when I go for the "close"
> button on a window. The original "dodge" function was a perfect fit,
> is there no way we can have this reinstated along with the other
> options as well? That way it keeps everyone happy....

With unity-2d on 12.04 it does not slide out if you hit the side in
the top panel itself (by the close button for maximised windows).  I
don't know about unity-3d but I guess it should be the same there.
Also I think there will be a sensitivity setting for how quickly it
appears.

Colin

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[Colin Law-4]

On 23 March 2012 21:25, Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 23 March 2012 21:16, Daniel Case <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 23 March 2012 21:11, Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> It doesn't have to be there all the time, there is an option to hide
>>> it.  It then appears when the mouse is pushed against the edge of the
>>> screen (on 12.04)
>>
>> I noticed this, however it often comes out when I go for the "close"
>> button on a window. The original "dodge" function was a perfect fit,
>> is there no way we can have this reinstated along with the other
>> options as well? That way it keeps everyone happy....
>
> With unity-2d on 12.04 it does not slide out if you hit the side in
> the top panel itself (by the close button for maximised windows).  I
> don't know about unity-3d but I guess it should be the same there.
> Also I think there will be a sensitivity setting for how quickly it
> appears.

And I have just done an update and can now specify which monitor I
want the launcher on (or all).  Excellent.

Colin

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[Daniel Case-2]

On 23 March 2012 21:21, Neil Greenwood <[hidden email]> wrote:
> They spent lots of money testing different behaviours

In my opinion, this is where the problem lies. The main people Linux
attracts, no matter which way you look at it, are hackers (in the
general sense). The reason Ubuntu grew was because the hackers
advocated it, gave it to users to try when Windows broke or when they
complained and could reasonably say "this is better". It's a hacker
culture, reaching out to the wider world and telling them there is
something different, something better that you can try, and taught
them how to use it. Now hackers are good with computers, they know
what they are doing (in an ideal world)

I gave 10.04 to someone who originally had Windows 7, he didn't know
much about computers, you should have seen his face when he realized
he could have all his applications at the bottom in an easy to reach
fashion again and we talked about how "simplicity" and "design" go
hand in hand and conquer all others.

The more complex it is to navigate through to get to what you want to
do, the more of a pain in the ass it becomes. The OS should be
seamless, it should keep out of the way when it isn't needed, and
allow users to find precisely what they want quickly when it is
needed, that to me, is a perfect OS. The direction we are all heading
is away from simplicity.

Simplicity is key to hackers, Unity interferes with that, it makes you
more hands on with the OS. This perhaps makes it marginally easier for
the new user, but it makes life more difficult for the hacker.

Which brings me back to my first point, who's going to advocate Ubuntu
if it annoys the hacker and makes life more difficult?

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[Alan Pope-4]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 23/03/12 21:45, Daniel Case wrote:
> On 23 March 2012 21:21, Neil Greenwood
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> They spent lots of money testing different behaviours
>
> In my opinion, this is where the problem lies. The main people
> Linux attracts, no matter which way you look at it, are hackers (in
> the general sense).

That's exactly the problem we're trying to solve. Not asking the
target audience, but only asking hackers would be arrogant and
foolhardy. That's why we don't do that. We do listen to feedback, more
than you'd imagine, and decisions taken about design (for example) are
directly affected by user feedback. That doesn't happen for every
minute decision, but it happens.

We're also making it easier to buy computers with Ubuntu pre-installed
by talking to hardware vendors, to get it shipped from the factory.
It's hard work and takes a long time to do but we're getting there.

> Which brings me back to my first point, who's going to advocate
> Ubuntu if it annoys the hacker and makes life more difficult?
>

Those of us who do like it, do use it and believe it is the right path
for Ubuntu to take. If you don't then you have a number of options:-

* Install a different desktop environment on your Ubuntu system
* Join the discussion on the various Ubuntu development lists to
articulate how we're doing things wrong
* Test and file bugs when things don't work correctly
* Provide patches or programs to help Ubuntu & Unity to appeal

Personally I am in this for the long haul. Each 6 monthly release is
fantastic, but I'm thinking years away from now, and I'm happy to
persevere through the rough times because I think the long term goal
is worth it.

Frankly if people who are "inside" our community, "hackers" as you
call them aren't willing to get stuck in then Linux Mint, Debian,
Fedora and hundreds of other distros are -> that way. Enjoy!

Cheers,
- --
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Engineering Manager

Canonical - Product Strategy
[phone]
[hidden email]
http://ubuntu.com/
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[scoundrel50agmail]

On 23/03/2012 22:04, Alan Pope wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 23/03/12 21:45, Daniel Case wrote:
>> On 23 March 2012 21:21, Neil Greenwood
>> <[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>> They spent lots of money testing different behaviours
>> In my opinion, this is where the problem lies. The main people
>> Linux attracts, no matter which way you look at it, are hackers (in
>> the general sense).
> That's exactly the problem we're trying to solve. Not asking the
> target audience, but only asking hackers would be arrogant and
> foolhardy. That's why we don't do that. We do listen to feedback, more
> than you'd imagine, and decisions taken about design (for example) are
> directly affected by user feedback. That doesn't happen for every
> minute decision, but it happens.
>
> We're also making it easier to buy computers with Ubuntu pre-installed
> by talking to hardware vendors, to get it shipped from the factory.
> It's hard work and takes a long time to do but we're getting there.
>
>> Which brings me back to my first point, who's going to advocate
>> Ubuntu if it annoys the hacker and makes life more difficult?
>>
> Those of us who do like it, do use it and believe it is the right path
> for Ubuntu to take. If you don't then you have a number of options:-
>
> * Install a different desktop environment on your Ubuntu system
> * Join the discussion on the various Ubuntu development lists to
> articulate how we're doing things wrong
> * Test and file bugs when things don't work correctly
> * Provide patches or programs to help Ubuntu&  Unity to appeal
>
> Personally I am in this for the long haul. Each 6 monthly release is
> fantastic, but I'm thinking years away from now, and I'm happy to
> persevere through the rough times because I think the long term goal
> is worth it.
>
> Frankly if people who are "inside" our community, "hackers" as you
> call them aren't willing to get stuck in then Linux Mint, Debian,
> Fedora and hundreds of other distros are ->  that way. Enjoy!
>
> Cheers,
> - --
> Alan Pope
> Engineering Manager
>
> Canonical - Product Strategy
> [phone]
> [hidden email]
> http://ubuntu.com/
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oooh and who took your dummy away.......that was my reaction when I read
that.......but the thing is, you work for Canonical, so your going to
say that, whatever happens........what is frustrating is people on here
are giving an opinion and its being thrown aside is if it doesnt matter
because you have all this research into what people like, but people are
here telling you different, that has been going on since 11.04 people
have said they dont like it......and its not getting better its getting
worse.....



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[Daniel Case-2]

Hi Alan,

I appreciate what the design teams are trying to do and I appreciate
that it is very difficult (or even impossible -as I have never seen it
done effectively) to provide the same operating system that works for
both new users and hackers alike.

New users like the OS to guide them through the process, whereas
hackers want it to get out of their way so they can be more
productive. Two very different approaches, you either confuse one or
annoy the other and it's very difficult to reach that middle ground. I
personally would have even gone for having two separate systems under
the "Ubuntu" name to cater to both.

I've been in the Ubuntu community for 5 years already and don't plan
on leaving any time soon, but I think there needs to be some
representation of the hacker culture that Ubuntu has built up over the
years so that we can find the middle ground, it seems to me as though
Canonical wants to believe that we are not here!

I personally like the interactions I've had with Unity. I can see why
it would be appealing to a user who just wants to go on Facebook or
write some documents, but I can also see the reason that many of us
folk who have been here for a long time don't like it. I've seen lots
of criticism of little parts and even some general big rants, I'm
trying to come at this in a more level headed way to work with you on
solving the bigger problem, trying to please both sets of users and
everyone in between.

So I'm not saying Unity is fundamentally broken, it's great for one
set of users, but I think canonical needs to accommodate us with more
customization options and hacks so that we can all move forward.

Daniel

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[Barry Drake]

On 23/03/12 22:04, Alan Pope wrote:
> Personally I am in this for the long haul. Each 6 monthly release is
> fantastic, but I'm thinking years away from now, and I'm happy to
> persevere through the rough times because I think the long term goal
> is worth it.

Alan - well said!  Folk who really want to see progress will go along
with what Ubuntu is doing right now.  Sure, it isn't perfect, but it is
amazing.  Anyone who still has doubt, start testing Windows 8 .....  
'shoot' and 'foot' spring to mind.

Regards,        Barry.

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[Daniel Case-2]

On 23 March 2012 22:34, Barry Drake <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  Anyone who still has doubt, start testing Windows 8 .....  'shoot' and
> 'foot' spring to mind.

That's certainly true. But I can't help feeling that everything is
heading towards the "post-PC" era too early. For example, I can see
Unity working perfectly on a touch screen. I genuinely care about the
Ubuntu community as a whole, it feels like home since I've been here
and always welcomed for almost 5 years, I know that ranting, shouting
and saying I'm going to leave won't help (and I don't think I could
bring myself to do so anyway) but I was hoping that highlighting the
issues as I see them may help more.

PS. Sorry for taking over your email thread Barry... :)

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[scoundrel50agmail]

On 23/03/2012 22:34, Barry Drake wrote:

> On 23/03/12 22:04, Alan Pope wrote:
>> Personally I am in this for the long haul. Each 6 monthly release is
>> fantastic, but I'm thinking years away from now, and I'm happy to
>> persevere through the rough times because I think the long term goal
>> is worth it.
>
> Alan - well said! Folk who really want to see progress will go along
> with what Ubuntu is doing right now. Sure, it isn't perfect, but it is
> amazing. Anyone who still has doubt, start testing Windows 8 .....
> 'shoot' and 'foot' spring to mind.
>
> Regards, Barry.
>

Windows 8 is like running the phone version, which is about
apps.......which is the almost the same as running google chrome OS
which I have had a go at both, if people have wondows phones its just a
continuation/upgrade, from what I have been playing with....it takes a
bit of getting used to as far as using other windows programs, but its
not that confusing.....





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[Alan Pope-4]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 23/03/12 22:11, scoundrel50a wrote:
> oooh and who took your dummy away.......

Actually my patience is somewhat thin today because we cremated my
best friends Mum. Perhaps that has a bearing on my response, but it
puts things in perspective. Life is short.

Sorry if it seems that I'm being more harsh than usual. I'm just
pretty tired of people bitching about Ubuntu and Unity and doing
nothing about it but sending rants to people who can't actually fix
the problem.

We have developer lists and IRC channels for a reason, use them.

> that was my reaction when I read that.......but the thing is, you
> work for Canonical, so your going to say that, whatever
> happens........

That's pretty insulting to me. Well done.

> what is frustrating is people on here are giving an opinion

"Opinions are like <bodily_feature>, everyone has one".

> and its being thrown aside is if it doesnt matter because you have
> all this research into what people like, but people are here
> telling you different, that has been going on since 11.04 people
> have said they dont like it......and its not getting better its
> getting worse.....
>

Other distros are available.

Cheers,
- --
Alan Pope
Engineering Manager

Canonical - Product Strategy
[phone]
[hidden email]
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[John Oliver]

Personally, I think that the code should continue to be maintained. The argument being put forth sounds to me like "It is not the default, therefore no-one can have it". This argument does not work - look at Windows - the taskbar has an autohide option. Look at OS X; the much gone-on-about "full screen" mode (a.k.a. hide the dock) has just been added.




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[Alan Pope-4]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 23/03/12 22:23, Daniel Case wrote:
> New users like the OS to guide them through the process, whereas
> hackers want it to get out of their way so they can be more
> productive. Two very different approaches, you either confuse one
> or annoy the other and it's very difficult to reach that middle
> ground. I personally would have even gone for having two separate
> systems under the "Ubuntu" name to cater to both.
>

This is a popular misconception. There's about 500 people who work for
Canonical, most (nearly all) of which use Ubuntu all day every day.
They range from events management, HR, finance to developers,
designers, project managers, product managers, documentation experts
and blue sky thinkers.

We cover a surprising number of use cases in one company. The
developers are unsurprisingly very technical users and there are also
many non-technical users. To say we don't cater to both is not true in
my opinion.

Cheers,
- --
Alan Pope
Engineering Manager

Canonical - Product Strategy
[phone]
[hidden email]
http://ubuntu.com/
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[hidden email]
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/