WPA support in NetworkManager

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WPA support in NetworkManager

Andrew Jorgensen
NetworkManager 0.6.0 has just been released and now supports WPA
(through wpa-supplicant).  This is a big deal for me and I imagine
will be a big deal to enterprise customers as well.  Would it be
reasonable to get this version into Dapper?  Would that require
approving an exception to the version freeze or is this covered under
the general gnome exception?

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Re: WPA support in NetworkManager

Miles Lane
This is already working in Fedora Core 5 Test 3 and is works great.
I am not sure how much work this would be to get into Dapper.
There are a lot of changes going into ieee80211, ipw2200,
hid, udev, dbus, and I think all this stuff comes to play in the
work of NetworkManager.  It would definitely be fantastic to
get this as a connection management option for Dapper.
If I understand correctly, several drivers still don't provide all the
necessary stuff to make NetworkManager happy.  That might
be a blocking issue.

      Miles

On 3/4/06, Andrew Jorgensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> NetworkManager 0.6.0 has just been released and now supports WPA
> (through wpa-supplicant).  This is a big deal for me and I imagine
> will be a big deal to enterprise customers as well.  Would it be
> reasonable to get this version into Dapper?  Would that require
> approving an exception to the version freeze or is this covered under
> the general gnome exception?
>
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Re: WPA support in NetworkManager

Dennis Kaarsemaker
In reply to this post by Andrew Jorgensen
On za, 2006-03-04 at 14:09 -0700, Andrew Jorgensen wrote:

> Would it be reasonable to get this version into Dapper?

No, https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/33630
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Re: WPA support in NetworkManager

Scott James Remnant-2
In reply to this post by Andrew Jorgensen
On Sat, 2006-03-04 at 14:09 -0700, Andrew Jorgensen wrote:

> NetworkManager 0.6.0 has just been released and now supports WPA
> (through wpa-supplicant).  This is a big deal for me and I imagine
> will be a big deal to enterprise customers as well.  Would it be
> reasonable to get this version into Dapper?  Would that require
> approving an exception to the version freeze or is this covered under
> the general gnome exception?
>
It isn't covered by the general GNOME exception because it's not part of
the GNOME platform, desktop, etc.

I also do not believe it is reasonable to put this version into Dapper,
and would not recommend an exception to the version freeze.

  http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/NetworkManager/NEWS?rev=1.8&view=markup

While I can't disagree WPA is a "nice to have", it isn't something that
NetworkManager provides itself; it still relies on wpa_supplicant, which
is currently in universe.

  wpa_supplicant would require promotion to main.

NetworkManager also has gained additional dependencies, specifically
libnl, a generic netlink library.  This is not currently available in
Ubuntu.

  libnl would require packaging.
  libnl would require promotion to main.

NetworkManager has been rearchitectured and refactored.  We currently
ship a fairly large patch which makes it integrate better with the
current way we do networking and DNS management.

  this patch would have to be completely rewritten.

This patch also touches the VPN managers, and adds new VPN modules.  We
currently disable these because they are not well integrated with the
rest of the system.

  we would have to learn these managers, and either do the work to
  integrate them or disable them.

There's a new look, and new behaviour for the nm-applet.  I haven't even
seen screenshots of this, so can't begin to identify what would need to
be changed.

  we may have to tweak the new UI.
  all existing screenshots would be wrong.
  UserInterfaceFreeze is only two days away, it would most likely need
  an exception for that *as well*.


That's a hell of a lot of work for a new release.  Were it just a point
release with useful fixes, it'd be worth considering.  Maybe if it was a
new release that *only* introduced WPA support, we could think about an
exception.

But as it stands, there's just too much work to do to introduce NM 0.6
to dapper, and make sure it works before we release.


Our primary use case for the network-magic spec was "get NM into dapper"
because it's been dropped from the past three releases already because
we tried to get too much of it working before we accepted it.

This time we've done the opposite, we've only tried to make sure it's
core functionality works; that way it's *in* dapper and we can think
about extending its functionality in dapper+1

Scott
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Re: WPA support in NetworkManager

Karl Hegbloom
On Tue, 2006-03-07 at 16:11 +0000, Scott James Remnant wrote:
> On Sat, 2006-03-04 at 14:09 -0700, Andrew Jorgensen wrote:
>   libnl would require packaging.
>   libnl would require promotion to main.

I've got a package of it, but no time to maintain it.  Somebody please
grab it as a starter (not always on-line; keep trying):

  http://oaktree.homelinux.net:3006/packages/

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Re: WPA support in NetworkManager

Nils Bruenggel
Hello,

What if dapper gets delayed 6 weeks as suggested by Mark Shuttleworth?
Will it then be reconsidered for dapper?

Regards

Nils Bruenggel

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Re: WPA support in NetworkManager

Mario Đanić


On 3/11/06, Nils <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,

What if dapper gets delayed 6 weeks as suggested by Mark Shuttleworth?
Will it then be reconsidered for dapper?

Regards

Nils Bruenggel

Hello,

most probably not. That additional time will be used to squash bugs.

Best regards,
Mario

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Re: WPA support in NetworkManager

Michael-123
Mario Đanić wrote:

>
>
> On 3/11/06, *Nils* <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Hello,
>
>     What if dapper gets delayed 6 weeks as suggested by Mark Shuttleworth?
>     Will it then be reconsidered for dapper?
>
>     Regards
>
>     Nils Bruenggel
>
>
> Hello,
>
> most probably not. That additional time will be used to squash bugs.
>
> Best regards,
> Mario
>
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>
someone on ubuntufourms was saying that in the six week period they were
going to try and wpa support in.

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Re: WPA support in NetworkManager

Mario Đanić
>
someone on ubuntufourms was saying that in the six week period they were
going to try and wpa support in.

I higly doubt that *we* would take time and test packages that aren't really tested, while in the meantime ignoring packages and bugs that are far more important.

Best regards,
Mario

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Re: WPA support in NetworkManager

Dennis Kaarsemaker
In reply to this post by Michael-123
On za, 2006-03-11 at 08:40 -0800, Michael wrote:
> someone on ubuntufourms was saying that in the six week period they
> were going to try and wpa support in.

Wonder where he heard that - certainly not from *any* developer. Is is
not even certain that there will be a 6 week delay. And if it will be
there, it'll be spent on polishing and bugfixing. NOT new features.

Since this is getting very off-topic here, please move this to the
sounder list.
 
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Re: WPA support in NetworkManager

Patrick McFarland (Diablo-D3)
In reply to this post by Mario Đanić
On Saturday 11 March 2006 07:36, Mario Đanić wrote:
> most probably not. That additional time will be used to squash bugs.

But the lack of WPA support /is/ a bug. And it means, yet again, Ubuntu is
pretty much useless for the "modern laptop". I'd really like to see WPA
support be completed before Dapper launch.

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Re: WPA support in NetworkManager

Ben Aldrich
I completely agree.. this has been one of the largest bugs stoping me from being able to use ubuntu on my laptop at work... it's just too annoying trying to switch into a wpa network.

On 3/11/06, Patrick McFarland <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Saturday 11 March 2006 07:36, Mario Đanić wrote:
> most probably not. That additional time will be used to squash bugs.

But the lack of WPA support /is/ a bug. And it means, yet again, Ubuntu is
pretty much useless for the "modern laptop". I'd really like to see WPA
support be completed before Dapper launch.

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Re: WPA support in NetworkManager

Dennis Kaarsemaker
In reply to this post by Patrick McFarland (Diablo-D3)
On za, 2006-03-11 at 17:42 -0500, Patrick McFarland wrote:

> But the lack of WPA support /is/ a bug.

But not one that can be solved reliably within the dapper timeframe.
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Re: WPA support in NetworkManager

Alejandro Bonilla Beeche
On Sun, 2006-03-12 at 00:26 +0100, Dennis Kaarsemaker wrote:
> On za, 2006-03-11 at 17:42 -0500, Patrick McFarland wrote:
>
> > But the lack of WPA support /is/ a bug.
>
> But not one that can be solved reliably within the dapper timeframe.

You all have it really wrong. A distribution DOES NOT release a version
when they decide to. It is when it's ready. YOU WILL release crappy and
buggy software if you push something for a date and note for when
something is ready. Ubuntu is good and should be released when it's
ready. Not on a stupid date.

Additionally, WPA is WHAT? 3 Years old? 4 Maybe? I know the feature is
new in NM but is a feature the OS has to have
so-it-won't-be-considered-primitive. I don't care if other Distros have
it or not. If the people want the feature, then it should be included.
This is a distro for the "humans" isn't it?

.Alejandro


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Re: WPA support in NetworkManager

Dennis Kaarsemaker
On za, 2006-03-11 at 18:56 -0600, Alejandro Bonilla wrote:

> You all have it really wrong.

Of course. But please take flaming to the sounder list (or even
better /dev/null) and keep ubuntu-devel a constructive place.
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Re: WPA support in NetworkManager

Alejandro Bonilla Beeche
On Sun, 2006-03-12 at 01:12 +0100, Dennis Kaarsemaker wrote:
> On za, 2006-03-11 at 18:56 -0600, Alejandro Bonilla wrote:
>
> > You all have it really wrong.
>
> Of course. But please take flaming to the sounder list (or even
> better /dev/null) and keep ubuntu-devel a constructive place.

I am being constructive. Do you think that it is smart to release
something for a date? or because it is ready? If it's not ready then
there is nothing to release. Is really simple. Do not base your
standards on a date but on excellence of quality which is really what
Dapper has, still it could include the FEW things that people are asking
for. NM with WPA support.

You might not need it or care, but the people that do want it is
fighting to have it in. Would you not do the same if you were in my
position? Maybe not cause you are careless it seams.

I add myself to the list of people that want the feature in.

.Alejandro


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Re: WPA support in NetworkManager

Dennis Kaarsemaker
On za, 2006-03-11 at 19:35 -0600, Alejandro Bonilla wrote:

> On Sun, 2006-03-12 at 01:12 +0100, Dennis Kaarsemaker wrote:
> > On za, 2006-03-11 at 18:56 -0600, Alejandro Bonilla wrote:
> >
> > > You all have it really wrong.
> >
> > Of course. But please take flaming to the sounder list (or even
> > better /dev/null) and keep ubuntu-devel a constructive place.
>
> I am being constructive. Do you think that it is smart to release
> something for a date? or because it is ready? If it's not ready then
> there is nothing to release. Is really simple. Do not base your
> standards on a date but on excellence of quality which is really what
> Dapper has, still it could include the FEW things that people are asking
> for. NM with WPA support.
The Ubuntu will never release because there is always somthing people
want. If it's not WPA then it's XGL or the latest firefox or the latest
openoffice or....

> You might not need it or care, but the people that do want it is
> fighting to have it in. Would you not do the same if you were in my
> position? Maybe not cause you are careless it seams.

I use only WPA and 802.1x wireless networks - I can't wait to see NM 0.6
in Ubuntu. But this discussion is going nowhere and you resort to
flaming ("You are all wrong" is not a constructive comment), so please
take this to the sounder list.

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Re: WPA support in NetworkManager

Lee Revell
In reply to this post by Alejandro Bonilla Beeche
On Sat, 2006-03-11 at 18:56 -0600, Alejandro Bonilla wrote:
> Additionally, WPA is WHAT? 3 Years old? 4 Maybe? I know the feature is
> new in NM but is a feature the OS has to have
> so-it-won't-be-considered-primitive. I don't care if other Distros
> have
> it or not. If the people want the feature, then it should be included.
> This is a distro for the "humans" isn't it?

And this is a list for DEVELOPMENT.

What patches have YOU contributed to enable WPA support in NM?

Lee


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Re: WPA support in NetworkManager

Scott Robinson-4
In reply to this post by Alejandro Bonilla Beeche
On Sat, Mar 11, 2006 at 07:35:25PM -0600, Alejandro Bonilla wrote:

> I am being constructive. Do you think that it is smart to release
> something for a date? or because it is ready? If it's not ready then
> there is nothing to release. Is really simple. Do not base your
> standards on a date but on excellence of quality which is really what
> Dapper has, still it could include the FEW things that people are asking
> for. NM with WPA support.
>
> You might not need it or care, but the people that do want it is
> fighting to have it in. Would you not do the same if you were in my
> position? Maybe not cause you are careless it seams.
>
> I add myself to the list of people that want the feature in.
>
[...]

Another constructive idea would be to maintain your own package and
advertise it on the Ubuntu Forums and other places. (the Guide, for
example)

Both Hoary and Breezy had large supported software communities for
packages that weren't or couldn't be shipped with the distro. The same
can happen for NM.

For my part, I am pretty much done with a python backend to NM. I
dislike that the upstream backend doesn't integrate more cleanly with
the distro. Instead of suggesting improvements and bug reporting (which
I've found doesn't work with a lot of the new "desktop" projects - they
have a way and by God they'll stick to it - see GPM) I'll just do it my
own direction.

Scott.

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Re: WPA support in NetworkManager

Alejandro Bonilla Beeche
In reply to this post by Dennis Kaarsemaker
On Sun, 2006-03-12 at 01:47 +0100, Dennis Kaarsemaker wrote:

> On za, 2006-03-11 at 19:35 -0600, Alejandro Bonilla wrote:
> > On Sun, 2006-03-12 at 01:12 +0100, Dennis Kaarsemaker wrote:
> > > On za, 2006-03-11 at 18:56 -0600, Alejandro Bonilla wrote:
> > >
> > > > You all have it really wrong.
> > >
> > > Of course. But please take flaming to the sounder list (or even
> > > better /dev/null) and keep ubuntu-devel a constructive place.
> >
> > I am being constructive. Do you think that it is smart to release
> > something for a date? or because it is ready? If it's not ready then
> > there is nothing to release. Is really simple. Do not base your
> > standards on a date but on excellence of quality which is really what
> > Dapper has, still it could include the FEW things that people are asking
> > for. NM with WPA support.
>
> The Ubuntu will never release because there is always somthing people
> want. If it's not WPA then it's XGL or the latest firefox or the latest
> openoffice or....
>
> > You might not need it or care, but the people that do want it is
> > fighting to have it in. Would you not do the same if you were in my
> > position? Maybe not cause you are careless it seams.
>
> I use only WPA and 802.1x wireless networks - I can't wait to see NM 0.6
> in Ubuntu. But this discussion is going nowhere and you resort to
> flaming ("You are all wrong" is not a constructive comment), so please
> take this to the sounder list.

Fine, I said what I had to say. The rest is up to the ones that decide.
If you release something on a date then what you will get is what Debian
got with Sarge. It was all criticized and said to also be insecure. I
can install my own NM 6 but people can't stand using a Distro with bugs.
BTW, a date is only used to do a cut on development and inclusion and
make people to use the version that is upstream. But there are always
exceptions. Once bugs are fixed or most of them, then you got yourself a
nice Release. Not because of a date.

.Alejandro


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