Windows FOSS on the Live CD -- the OOo2 question

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Windows FOSS on the Live CD -- the OOo2 question

Henrik Nilsen Omma-2

I'd like to poll people's views on the content of the Windows FOSS on
the Live CD. In the past we have adjusted the Win-FOSS to fit the
available space quite close to the end of the process, but it might be
worth taking a longer view now.

How do people use it? Is it something that end user find valuable? This
is the current collection on Ubuntu 5.10:

Firefox 4.7mb
Gaim 6.6mb
OpenOffice 77.1mb
Other CD content 13-15mb

Total: 100mb

The big space-hog as always is OpenOffice.org 2.0. It takes up 77 MB of
space (compressed), and is then only available in English (a different
language is a separate install). If we removed OOo2 we could add several
other applications, and still save considerable space. An example:

Firefox 4.7mb
Gaim 6.6mb
Thunderbird 6.1mb
Abiword 5.0mb
Gimp 15mb
MoinMoin Desktop 3.2mb
7-zip 0.8mb
Other CD content 13-15mb

Total: ~57mb


The 'other CD content' is the stuff that makes it browseable. This
includes the Gecko-based CD bowser and content files including images
like screenshots. We could potentially add some items to this, like a
PDF version of the 'Great Features of Ubuntu' document and possibly some
wallpapers.

I see three main issues with removing OpenOffice: First it is a
cornerstone piece of FOSS that has an important role in getting a
foot-hold on the Windows platform (but less important than Firefox). It
has the best support for MS-Office files of the Free office suites. And
third, it is what we ship with Ubuntu, so it presents a unified picture,
making it clear that you can run many of the same applications on
several platforms and you can then painlessly move your data between them.

The question is whether these three points are important enough to
outweigh the limitations on space. The the saved 30-77mb we can add a
lot of cool stuff.

Among that stuff could be example content (and language packs).  With
more space we could include more pictures, OOo presentations, several
pieces of music, a decent video clip, gimp files with multiple layers, etc.

Thoughs?

- Henrik

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Re: Windows FOSS on the Live CD -- the OOo2 question

Chip Piller
Henrik Nilsen Omma <henrik@...> writes:
>
> I'd like to poll people's views on the content of the Windows FOSS on
> the Live CD.

Personally I have never used any of the Windows FOSS programs from the LiveCD.
If I am on a Windows machine and I want openoffice/firefox/whatever I go to the
appropriate website, download and install the software.

When I create customized Ubuntu LiveCD's one of the first things I do is to
remove all of the Windows programs.  This creates space for more linux software
and/or it creates a smaller LiveCD image, which is a good thing.
--Chip


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Re: Windows FOSS on the Live CD -- the OOo2 question

Santiago Roza-2
In reply to this post by Henrik Nilsen Omma-2
imho the win32 foss is a bad idea per se: we shouldn't take 100 mb for
something that's not needed for ubuntu, especially when you're under
heavy size constraints.

given that, if the choice still is to blundle win32 software, the
non-ooo2 option sounds like the most reasonable.  no one will ever
install it from that cd anyway, and we get to add more variety.


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Re: Windows FOSS on the Live CD -- the OOo2 question

Henrik Nilsen Omma-2
Santiago Roza wrote:
> imho the win32 foss is a bad idea per se: we shouldn't take 100 mb for
> something that's not needed for ubuntu, especially when you're under
> heavy size constraints.
>  
Well, remember that the CD isn't just for you and I who already know and
use Ubuntu. It's for a wider audience, to which esp. the live CD serves
as a great introduction tool. Once you are using Ubuntu, you can always
install more software or you can get the DVD instead.

Imagine a conversation with a friend who you are trying to introduce to
Ubuntu. He generally likes the concept of FOSS, and has been stubbed N
times by virus and malware infections. So you have his interest, but
then there are the obstacles:

 * I have this FooBarCash program on Windows that I really need
 * I need MS-Office/QuarkXpress, etc. for my job
 * I have all my files in format X
 * Repartitioning my drive sounds scary
 * My parents/friends/partner also use the machine and they won't like
it if I change the system

Armed with an Ubuntu Live CD you can say: "OK, take this disc and
restart your computer. Run the live session and see what you think. Then
open it up on your Windows system, and at the very /least/ install
Firefox. Using IE is just a bad idea. Using Firefox will at least reduce
your exposure to nasty stuff and it has tabs!."

-- "OK, that sounds useful. I'll try it." They take the CD and actually
use it :)

-  Henrik

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Re: Windows FOSS on the Live CD -- the OOo2 question

Jerome Gotangco
This selection is pretty good actually, although I would wonder the
use of MMDE for casual computer users. Wesnoth is pretty good too
(included in the OpenCD) but that's around 35MB for the setup file.

Firefox 4.7mb
Gaim 6.6mb
Thunderbird 6.1mb
Abiword 5.0mb
Gimp 15mb
MoinMoin Desktop 3.2mb
7-zip 0.8mb
Other CD content 13-15mb



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Re: Windows FOSS on the Live CD -- the OOo2 question

Santiago Roza-2
In reply to this post by Henrik Nilsen Omma-2
On 2/21/06, Henrik Nilsen Omma <[hidden email]> wrote:


> Well, remember that the CD isn't just for you and I who already know and
> use Ubuntu. It's for a wider audience ...

i know that, but the problem is that we're overlapping objectives
here.  the ubuntu livecd cannot have the same objetives as (for
example) the opencd.


> Then
> open it up on your Windows system, and at the very /least/ install
> Firefox.

i don't see why i can't give him a different cd for that, and let both
cds do what they're meant to do, and do it well.


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Re: Windows FOSS on the Live CD -- the OOo2 question

Henrik Nilsen Omma-2
In reply to this post by Jerome Gotangco
Jerome Gotangco wrote:
> This selection is pretty good actually, although I would wonder the
> use of MMDE for casual computer users.
Yes, I agree that it's probably not mainstream enough. It's just me who
is a Moin-zealot :) That was more a hypothetical list to show some file
sizes.

> Wesnoth is pretty good too
> (included in the OpenCD) but that's around 35MB for the setup file.
>  
I think 35MB is a bit too much for something which has a fairly small
audience in the end (besides, TheOpenCD needs some selling points too ;) ).

- Henrik

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Re: Windows FOSS on the Live CD -- the OOo2 question

Manu Cornet-3

Hi !

> I think 35MB is a bit too much for something which has a fairly small
> audience in the end (besides, TheOpenCD needs some selling points too ;) ).

Considering the great pieces of software we could make available the
Ubuntu part in those 35M, I tend to agree.

What about opening a small window (just like now, with nice icons), but
with just internet links (to the download page(s)) for the software we
don't want to actually include on the CD ?

Cheers,
Manu


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Re: Windows FOSS on the Live CD -- the OOo2 question

Martin Pitt-4
In reply to this post by Santiago Roza-2
Hi!

Santiago Roza [2006-02-21 12:56 -0300]:
> > Then
> > open it up on your Windows system, and at the very /least/ install
> > Firefox.
>
> i don't see why i can't give him a different cd for that, and let both
> cds do what they're meant to do, and do it well.

+1 from me. Shipping one OO.o2 on the CD is painful enough in terms of
size, shipping two makes it even worse. Please don't get me wrong, I
don't have anything against WinFOSS, nor OO.o, but I think trying to
squeeze too many things onto just one CD might cripple all parts to a
degree that could actually do more harm than good for their promotion.

The OpenCD, or even a separate 'Ubuntu WinFOSS CD' would make it
possible to improve both the Ubuntu Live CD and the WinFOSS software
IMHO. (E. g. you could ship translations, translated help files, and
more useful software on a dedicated WinFOSS CD).

Thanks,

Martin

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Re: Windows FOSS on the Live CD -- the OOo2 question

Armand CORBEAUX
In reply to this post by Henrik Nilsen Omma-2
To change its practices requires an effort.
To propose softwares for Windows on CD is a means of reassuring people.

When you listen people around you, you realize that they don't know what is free softwares, even less than they can have a free office suite, and even less than any software does not require a licence of use.

These softwares are still necessary to help people to learn.
But that should be better indicate on Live CD.

Of course that can make double employment, because Live CD is bootable, but sometimes simply start another OS can make fear.

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Re: Windows FOSS on the Live CD -- the OOo2 question

Derek Buranen-2
In reply to this post by Henrik Nilsen Omma-2
Speaking as an IT consultant who deals with mostly Microsoft Windows systems on a day to day basis, I love the idea of OOo2.  It even comes with Java in the latest OpenOffice 2.01 package.  For me, it's going to be a long fight for Linux.  I know if the LiveCD has content for windows users, I have a reason to give it out.  People specifically ask for Firefox from me! 
If I could have a "Firefox" CD that is actually Ubuntu, I could subvertly get people exposure to the Ubuntu logo, terminology like Linux/open source, and OpenOffice. 

Similarly to the "Firefox" CD, I have been getting more inquiries about OpenOffice.  I could use the Ubuntu disk in a similar fashion to these people.

Rather than just downloading it for them and letting go on their marry Windows -using way, I could hand them an Ubuntu disk and say "It's on there" where they would be forced to get the nice menu that includes other options.

The way I get people to use Linux now is by hand-holding them.  Most people would enjoy the simple adventure of an Ubuntu LiveCD that has windows content and wouldn't need me every step of the way because of their previous exposure.

If we don't include any Open software on the Ubuntu LiveCD, I don't have that new reason to give people an Ubuntu CD.  No one I know is compelled enough to just run Linux and we need to help transitioning people.

My ideal list (in order of most desired to least):

Firefox  5.0mb
OpenOffice 76.3mb
Gaim w/GTK 6.6mb
Thunderbird 6.1
Gimp 7.7 (tell users to install Gaim first, this is to get GTK, but they don't have to know it's GTK)
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Re: Windows FOSS on the Live CD -- the OOo2 question

Dennis Kaarsemaker
On di, 2006-02-21 at 16:12 -0700, Derek Buranen wrote:

> Speaking as an IT consultant who deals with mostly Microsoft Windows
> systems on a day to day basis, I love the idea of OOo2.  It even comes
> with Java in the latest OpenOffice 2.01 package.  For me, it's going
> to be a long fight for Linux.  I know if the LiveCD has content for
> windows users, I have a reason to give it out.  People specifically
> ask for Firefox from me!  

You really should have a look at TheOpenCD :)

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Re: Windows FOSS on the Live CD -- the OOo2 question

Santiago Roza-2
we're mixing two different issues here.  one of them is the need for a
win32 foss cd (which no one denies), and the other is the idea that
such cd should be the ubuntu livecd (which is at least questionable).

many things are necessary.  but most of them don't come in the ubuntu
livecd, taking precious space, do they?


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Re: Windows FOSS on the Live CD -- the OOo2 question

Michael Richter-5
In reply to this post by Armand CORBEAUX
On Wed, 2006-22-02 at 00:08 +0100, Armand CORBEAUX wrote:
> When you listen people around you, you realize that they don't know
> what is free softwares, even less than they can have a free office
> suite, and even less than any software does not require a licence of
> use.

Actually, more to the point, people don't *care*.

They care that they can write memos.
They care that they can send emails.
They care that they can surf the web.
They care that they can use IM.

Advanced users have a few extra cares like a spreadsheet, presentation
software, etc.

They don't care about free software philosophy.  They care about their
work which happens to use software in the process.  If the software is
free or not doesn't even enter their consciousness.

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Re: Windows FOSS on the Live CD -- the OOo2 question

Dennis Kaarsemaker
On wo, 2006-02-22 at 20:59 +0800, Michael T. Richter wrote:

> Actually, more to the point, people don't *care*.

More and more people DO care, and stimulating this with TheOpenCD and
the WinFoss on the live CD is a Good Thing imho.

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Re: Windows FOSS on the Live CD -- the OOo2 question

Peter Garrett
In reply to this post by Michael Richter-5
On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 20:59:43 +0800
"Michael T. Richter" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> They don't care about free software philosophy.  They care about their
> work which happens to use software in the process.  If the software is
> free or not doesn't even enter their consciousness.

Michael, I find this assertion, shall we say politely, *interesting*.
Some years ago, I was a completely "non-technical" computer user.

I got tired of being treated like a suspected thief, having to prove my
honesty with codes after legitimately buying products, and give information
to a company whose principles, behaviour and methods were anathema to me.

I also got tired of the unreliablity of the OS I was using (it froze at
the drop of a hat, required constant rebooting, and lost data regularly).
I got tired of paying for antivirus, when it was clear even to me, in my
"non-technical" state, that I was basically paying protection money. I got
tired of losing performance and watching my machine slow down. I got tired
of researching how to fix all this, and tired of running "Spybot" and
"Adaware" all the time ..

So I looked for something better, safer and less insulting. In some ways it
was  more work initially, but in the process I have learnt a great deal and
now feel confident that I understand basically how it works - at least
well enough to achieve what I wish. I also know that I am free to change it
and reconfigure it, without being browbeaten into "signing"
execrably restrictive and, in my view, almost criminal EULAs. I can always
find out more, because the code is there, if I decide I need it and am
willing to learn about it. I was *looking* for Free Software, even though
at the time I didn't know what "Free and Open Source Software" was.

Perhaps you underestimate the intelligence and principles of the people
you write about. Many people are tired of being controlled, and are taking
their power and freedom back.

And when these things are explained to them in a non-technical and
non-zealot manner, they are usually quite interested in how it works, on
the levels I've described.

Sincerely,

Peter

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Re: Windows FOSS on the Live CD -- the OOo2 question

Michael Richter-5
On Thu, 2006-23-02 at 07:36 +1100, Peter Garrett wrote:
> > They don't care about free software philosophy.  They care about their
> > work which happens to use software in the process.  If the software is
> > free or not doesn't even enter their consciousness.

> Michael, I find this assertion, shall we say politely, *interesting*.
> Some years ago, I was a completely "non-technical" computer user.

> I got tired of being treated like a suspected thief, having to prove my
> honesty with codes after legitimately buying products, and give information
> to a company whose principles, behaviour and methods were anathema to me.

And how many computer users do you match?  How many end-users worry
about all this stuff vs. how many just put up with the shit that's
constantly foisted upon them?

My guess -- from simple observation of any office I've ever worked in
(including software development companies!) -- is that you're not only
in a minority, you're in such a tiny minority as to make no difference.
Yet.

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Re: Windows FOSS on the Live CD -- the OOo2 question

Sandis Neilands
Hello!

On 2/23/06, Michael T. Richter <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, 2006-23-02 at 07:36 +1100, Peter Garrett wrote:
> > > They don't care about free software philosophy.  They care about their
> > > work which happens to use software in the process.  If the software is
> > > free or not doesn't even enter their consciousness.
>
> > Michael, I find this assertion, shall we say politely, *interesting*.
> > Some years ago, I was a completely "non-technical" computer user.
>
> > I got tired of being treated like a suspected thief, having to prove my
> > honesty with codes after legitimately buying products, and give information
> > to a company whose principles, behaviour and methods were anathema to me.
>
> And how many computer users do you match?  How many end-users worry
> about all this stuff vs. how many just put up with the shit that's
> constantly foisted upon them?
That is entirely true. But think of this in another way. People having
 techincal issues with proprietary software will only look at FOSS if
they are aware of it. People having issues with evil and unfair
buisness methods and corporate philosophy (greed) will look at FOSS
only if they are aware of it.

In the first case, ubuntu's win-foss and the open cd are doing
reasonably well, as they are providing techically superior
alternatives. In second case they fail to deliver the message, that
this software is free of charge because of it's development methods,
libre licensing and so on, but not because some software house is
performing dumping. If not for the sake of freedom, this information
is valuable as economical hint.

You say that users don't know it and they don't care. I say that they
don't care because they don't know. Giving them the information about
philosophies of FOSS won't hurt, will it? They would still have a
choice not to read it.

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Re: Windows FOSS on the Live CD -- the OOo2 question

Matthew Kuiken
In reply to this post by Henrik Nilsen Omma-2
Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote:
>
> I'd like to poll people's views on the content of the Windows FOSS on
> the Live CD. In the past we have adjusted the Win-FOSS to fit the
> available space quite close to the end of the process, but it might be
> worth taking a longer view now.
<snip>
> Thoughs?
>
> - Henrik
>

Just thought I'd add the experience of a BDU who is slowly waking up...

When I first started trying to change to Linux 4 months ago, I tried OOo while
using Ubuntu 5.10.  I edited the files I got from work, and everything went
quite well.  I had copies of both the Live CD and the install CD.

I did not realize that there was *any* content for Windows on the Live CD.
Instead, due to my experiences while using OOo under Ubuntu, I did a web search
and downloaded the windows version.  (Sorry, I won't be getting rid of windows
for a while yet...)  It wasn't until a couple months later when I accidentally
left the CD in the drive after a windows boot that I noticed that it had windows
content...

All that said, the size of OOo makes me think that it would be better served
being on a disk that specifically serves windows users.  My two most used
windows apps are Firefox and Thunderbird.  I use OOo ocasionally, but usually
associated with work stuff that I'm bringing home because I don't want to be at
the office any more.

FWIW, my vote would be for Firefox and Thunderbird, anything else is just icing
in my opinion.  I don't use IM, so GAIM doesn't do much for me.  GIMP sounds
interesting, but only as something to play with for a day or two, as I really
don't do a whole lot of photo editing.

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Re: Windows FOSS on the Live CD -- the OOo2 question

Vid Ayer
In reply to this post by Peter Garrett
Hello,

On 2/21/06, Henrik Nilsen Omma <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The question is whether these three points are important enough to
> outweigh the limitations on space. The the saved 30-77mb we can add a
> lot of cool stuff.

People who have not used an OS other than Linux cite this as major
block (among others) so its important to demo to a new Linux user that
they can run their applications saved in proprietary format
successfully.



> "Michael T. Richter" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> They don't care about free software philosophy.  They care about their
> work which happens to use software in the process.  If the software is
> free or not doesn't even enter their consciousness.

Some do know and do care. My experience has been that some like the
freedom aspect and some tag along for the security whilst some sit on
the fence for various reasons. Fine.... we shall get there eventually.


On 2/23/06, Peter Garrett <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Some years ago, I was a completely "non-technical" computer user.
> I also got tired of the unreliablity of the OS I was using (it froze at
> the drop of a hat, required constant rebooting, and lost data regularly).
> I got tired of paying for antivirus, when it was clear even to me, in my
> "non-technical" state, that I was basically paying protection money. I got
> tired of losing performance and watching my machine slow down. I got tired
> of researching how to fix all this, and tired of running "Spybot" and
> "Adaware" all the time ..

sounds so familiar :-)  Besides these, I'd like to add that in many
nations a majority of people can hardly afford a PC, forget buying the
software to run it. It is here that piracy is rampant with the main
software players turning the other way, even if they are aware of it,
or introduce cheaper versions with lesser functionality.
Why ? simply because once the user is hooked, he/she will not change
an OS that easily or does not out of fear and lack of knowledge. Some
PC vendors even refuse to provide a warranty if you use Linux
exclusively or dual-boot another OS with Linux. In such cases it takes
more than an average technical knowledge to get your rights and this
is where spreading FUD abounds.  Its not easy to fight through all
this for a lone home user and here the online community of volunteers
are a source of indispensable help.


> So I looked for something better, safer and less insulting. In some ways it
> was  more work initially, but in the process I have learnt a great deal and
> now feel confident that I understand basically how it works - at least

same here, but finally it was worth it :-)

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