(Yet another) new logout dialog

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(Yet another) new logout dialog

Manu Cornet-3


Hi !

Since the UI freeze has been postponed a few weeks, I have made a try at
enhancing the current logout dialog.

The main idea is that since there are so many options in there, users
might get lost (eg, what's the difference between Sleep and
Hibernate ?). I had first implemented tooltips, but the faded background
doesn't redraw correctly behind them, and I can't see an easy fix for
that.

Therefore, I just made a space below the buttons to display a help label
as the mouse goes over the various buttons. Here's how it looks :

        http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/logout.png
        http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/sleep.png

(these are actual screenshots, not mockups: I already wrote the code).

That's the general idea (of course, it needs refining for spacing,
wording, and maybe add an additional separator, etc.).

I still have a problem with the label's size. My small text for
Hibernate doesn't fit in one line, and displaying it resizes the
dialog :

        http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/hibernate.png

And then, when another one-lined text is displayed again, I get the same
problem with the background not redrawing correctly :

        http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/restart_bad.png

I guess it would be best to keep the dialog's size constant. But if I
allow too big a space by default (even when no text is displayed), the
bottom of the dialog really looks weird and empty when the pointer is
away from all buttons. And I can't assume all help texts will fit in one
line (or two, for that matter) in all languages.

What do you guys think is the best solution for this ?

And how do you like this "status label" idea ?

Cheers,
Manu


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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

Étienne Bersac-3
Hello,

Your improvements are good. But the dialog needs a deeper review. I  
do agree with people thinking about two dialog : one for actions  
closing session (logout, shutdown, restart), one for actions  
suspending session (lock, switch, suspend, hibernate). The logout  
applet popdown a tiny menu with two entries : "pause session" and  
"end session" (or something similar).

Gnome ship a similar organisation. We should use big icons as in  
Ubuntu with your improvement.

Étienne.
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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

Sven Jaborek-2
Hello All!

good work Manu.
What bothers me is that sleep and suspend are shown by default. Where
can i deactivate sleep/suspend and does this remove the buttons from the
logout dialog? I ask because both of my machines never wake up when i
use sleep or suspend.
I would suggest creating a group that allows to sleep or suspend, and
the user has to be in this group. If he's not - of course, dont show the
buttons.

regards, Sven

ubuntu-desktop, please CC me in answers

Am Sonntag, den 26.03.2006, 20:12 +0200 schrieb Étienne Bersac:

> Hello,
>
> Your improvements are good. But the dialog needs a deeper review. I  
> do agree with people thinking about two dialog : one for actions  
> closing session (logout, shutdown, restart), one for actions  
> suspending session (lock, switch, suspend, hibernate). The logout  
> applet popdown a tiny menu with two entries : "pause session" and  
> "end session" (or something similar).
>
> Gnome ship a similar organisation. We should use big icons as in  
> Ubuntu with your improvement.
>
> Étienne.


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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

Manu Cornet-3
In reply to this post by Manu Cornet-3


Hi !

Here's a new version of the dialog :

        http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/dialog.png
        http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/logout.png
        http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/hibernate.png

Many people found that the dialog was too large ; therefore, I stacked
the help messages next to the "Cancel" button and reduced the spacing a
bit. This also solves a few layout problems (expanding window). Comments
welcome.

About the choice of designing a dialog with 6 or 7 options, I'm not the
one who decides about this (I'm just trying to make a good layout with
nice icons and text), but I do think it's a logical choice.

* I believe the main purpose for this multi-option dialog is to let
users have this main "top-right applet" flow to let them perform all
"exit" action.

* "Log out" as the name of the menu entry is definitely misleading, and
we're trying to find the best wording to replace it (suggestions
welcome !).

* The dialog indeed has many options. I agree that some of those should
be activated automatically (eg when a laptop lid is closed), but those
automatic behaviors are not yet working as they should, and meanwhile we
probably need the options in a dialog.

Cheers,
Manu


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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

Eric Feliksik
Manu Cornet wrote:
> * "Log out" as the name of the menu entry is definitely misleading, and
> we're trying to find the best wording to replace it (suggestions
> welcome !).

If we put them all together, maybe "exit" is the right word. Whether you
  lock&leave or log-out, that's up to you. Either you exit your session
and continue working, or you stop working and exit the room.
Don't know how well this translates, maybe "leave" can be translated,
but in English "exit" is more recognized for these tasks.

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Re: Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

Mark Shuttleworth
In reply to this post by Manu Cornet-3
Manu Cornet wrote:
Here's a new version of the dialog :

	http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/dialog.png
	http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/logout.png
	http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/hibernate.png
Interesting!
Many people found that the dialog was too large ; therefore, I stacked
the help messages next to the "Cancel" button and reduced the spacing a
bit. This also solves a few layout problems (expanding window). Comments
welcome.
  
I quite like the explanatory text. Daniel, is that easy to factor in?


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Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

Who-6
In reply to this post by Manu Cornet-3
> >
> > * "Log out" as the name of the menu entry is definitely misleading, and
> > we're trying to find the best wording to replace it (suggestions
> > welcome !).

How about 'Leave the Computer'

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Re: Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

Eric Feliksik
In reply to this post by Mark Shuttleworth
Matthew East wrote:
> Just to stick in two more cents, I agree with mpt: a logout dialogue
> that needs explanatory text is _really_ doing something wrong. The
> labels and the icons should be clear enough.
>
> Matt
>

Ok, but then the real question is, then: Do you think it's clear, now?
Do you think Aunt Tilly understands the difference between hibernation,
shutdown and sleep? Logout and switch user?

I personally don't think so. So we either have to come up with a way to
make it logical, which is inherently difficult because the differences
in the options are both subtle but complex at the same time.

If we can't make an icon describe that hibernate will turn off the
computer and not log you out, then a help text is better then nothing...
  I think?


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Re: Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

Sandis Neilands
Hello!

On 4/4/06, Eric Feliksik <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Ok, but then the real question is, then: Do you think it's clear, now?
> Do you think Aunt Tilly understands the difference between hibernation,
> shutdown and sleep? Logout and switch user?
>
> I personally don't think so. So we either have to come up with a way to
> make it logical, which is inherently difficult because the differences
> in the options are both subtle but complex at the same time.

I agree with you. So far i haven't seen any advantage in using
ubuntu's custom logout instead of gnome's default. I know this is
unpopular but
1) If the new logout doesn't solve more (or more important) problems
than it creates or
2) we are victims of NIH syndrome
then we should ditch it and revert to default.

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Re: Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

Petr Tomeš
2006/4/4, Sandis Neilands <[hidden email]>:
> I agree with you. So far i haven't seen any advantage in using
> ubuntu's custom logout instead of gnome's default. I know this is
> unpopular but
> 1) If the new logout doesn't solve more (or more important) problems
> than it creates or
> 2) we are victims of NIH syndrome
> then we should ditch it and revert to default.

I fully support your idea.

Petr Tomeš,
Ubuntu CZ - http://www.ubuntu.cz/

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Re: Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

Who-6
On 4/4/06, Petr Tomeš <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2006/4/4, Sandis Neilands <[hidden email]>:
> > I agree with you. So far i haven't seen any advantage in using
> > ubuntu's custom logout instead of gnome's default. I know this is
> > unpopular but
> > 1) If the new logout doesn't solve more (or more important) problems
> > than it creates or
> > 2) we are victims of NIH syndrome
> > then we should ditch it and revert to default.
>
> I fully support your idea.

I think that the new logout dialog (I.E the one with the description)

1. Is very professional (especially the way it appears when the power
button is pressed)
2. Very clearly describes what each option does, which is important
for new users and the kind of 'average joe' users Ubuntu wishes to
attract and keep.
3. Doesn't add any more clicks than it took to shut down with the old
dialog in order to shutdown

And if I were to improve it I would change the following - which make
life quicker and easier for regular/power users.

1. When the power button is pushed _twice_ the computer shuts down
2. On start-up (of the dialog) one icon should be selected so that
pushing Enter does that action. This should be either: always 'Shut
Down', or the option the use rlast used
3. (going too far and overcomplicating things) Icons should be
drag/dropable on to the desktop/panel so that you can
logout/shutdown/hibernate etc without using that dialog.

All I would change is the name in the system menu - and make it 'Leave
the Computer'

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Re: Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

Manu Cornet-3
In reply to this post by Mark Shuttleworth

Hi !

> > http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/dialog.png
> > http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/logout.png
> > http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/dev/hibernate.png
> Interesting!
>  
> I quite like the explanatory text. Daniel, is that easy to factor in?

As a matter of fact, I seldom do mere mockups, most of the time I also
write actual patches (and I sent this one to Seb by email along with
those captures) :) Seems like it is on its way to be uploaded soon.

Huh, did I misunderstand the meaning of "factor in" ? :)

Cheers,
Manu


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Re: Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

Mark Shuttleworth
In reply to this post by Eric Feliksik
Eric Feliksik wrote:
Matthew East wrote:
Just to stick in two more cents, I agree with mpt: a logout dialogue
that needs explanatory text is _really_ doing something wrong. The
labels and the icons should be clear enough.

Matt


Ok, but then the real question is, then: Do you think it's clear, now? Do you think Aunt Tilly understands the difference between hibernation, shutdown and sleep? Logout and switch user?

It's fantasy to think that icons alone will convey the difference between hibernation and suspension. I enjoy that sort of commentary, but I also know we have to stay focused on the reality of user knowledge and insight. *I* was not even clear on this till recently.

So, +1 to the mockup with explanatory text, and let's see if there's time to get that added.

Mark


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Re: Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

Mark Shuttleworth
In reply to this post by Manu Cornet-3
Manu Cornet wrote:
As a matter of fact, I seldom do mere mockups, most of the time I also
write actual patches (and I sent this one to Seb by email along with
those captures) :) Seems like it is on its way to be uploaded soon.
  
Rock star :-)
Huh, did I misunderstand the meaning of "factor in" ? :)
  
No, you got it SPOT ON!

Mark

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Re: Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

Henrik Nilsen Omma-2
In reply to this post by Mark Shuttleworth
Andy Somerville wrote:
> I think theres hardly anyone (who doesnt know beforehand) who thinks
> the hibernate/sleep functionality is clear. Maybe its been suggested
> before, but should we consider renaming these? (regardless of what
> other changes are made)

IMO it would be best to only show one of these options to the average
user. (It would be useful to have some real-world data on which of these
people use most often -- sleep I guess -- and how many people regularly
use both options.

We could add a tab to the System -> Preferences -> Power Management
settings that let you configure the log out dialogue. The dialogue would
only have 'Sleep' by default, making it less confusing to new users, but
you could add the 'Hibernate' button via a check box under Power
Management, where you could also uncheck the 'Sleep' option if you
wanted. The power management dialogue could contain a more detailed
explanation of the difference between the two so we don't have to put
that on the log out screen.

This would be fairly discoverable since someone with the question 'How
can I get my computer to Hibernate' would be likely to look under Power
Management after a bit of searching.

  - Henrik

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Re: Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

Mark Shuttleworth
Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote:
IMO it would be best to only show one of these options to the average user. (It would be useful to have some real-world data on which of these people use most often -- sleep I guess -- and how many people regularly use both options.
Except there's a darn good reason why on some occasions you want one option, and on others, you want the other.

A better use of our time would be figuring out how to disable options that don't work on specific hardware! Perhaps some sort of "oops I failed to hibernate" tracking could be used to hint the system that it really, really does not want to offer the hibernate option any more. This needs to be robust in the face of minor errors.

Mark

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Re: Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

Henrik Nilsen Omma-2
Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
> Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote:
>> IMO it would be best to only show one of these options to the average
>> user. (It would be useful to have some real-world data on which of
>> these people use most often -- sleep I guess -- and how many people
>> regularly use both options.
> Except there's a darn good reason why on some occasions you want one
> option, and on others, you want the other.

Well, some users want both options, but those who don't know the
difference (which we have established is most people) don't. If
Hibernate tends to fail, then it might be wise to leave that one hidden
by default and let those who know that a) they want it and b) that it
works with their hardware can find it and enable it.

  - Henrik

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Re: Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

jd-47
In reply to this post by Mark Shuttleworth
Mark Shuttleworth a écrit :

> Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote:
>> IMO it would be best to only show one of these options to the average
>> user. (It would be useful to have some real-world data on which of
>> these people use most often -- sleep I guess -- and how many people
>> regularly use both options.
> Except there's a darn good reason why on some occasions you want one
> option, and on others, you want the other.
>
> A better use of our time would be figuring out how to disable options
> that don't work on specific hardware! Perhaps some sort of "oops I
> failed to hibernate" tracking could be used to hint the system that it
> really, really does not want to offer the hibernate option any more.
> This needs to be robust in the face of minor errors.
(Hello, I'm new on the list although I've been reading/lurking for a
long time now). Yes, smart idea. And there is also the case of
"software": for example, when there is only one user (and sudo/root),
the Switch user option is not relevant, is it?

Anyway, as an average joe, I'd rather prefer useless/removable options
to hidden ones, especially regarding the most important part of the GUI,
since it may be destabilizing.

(Sorry Mark for the private mail, I missed the Answer *all* button *shame*).



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Re: Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

Victoria Greeven
In reply to this post by Henrik Nilsen Omma-2
moin moin ;-)

I am such an user, who doesn't know the difference - and I tell you - I
am confused about that really big Logout-"picture" with so many options.
In Germany we sometimes say "weniger ist mehr" (less is more) and so I
agree with Henrik. Those users, who want to use "hibernate" will find it
- the others will be glad, not to be confronted with another option.
Greetings from the noobs
  Victoria

Henrik Nilsen Omma schrieb:

> Well, some users want both options, but those who don't know the
> difference (which we have established is most people) don't. If
> Hibernate tends to fail, then it might be wise to leave that one
> hidden by default and let those who know that a) they want it and b)
> that it works with their hardware can find it and enable it.
>
>  - Henrik
>
> --
> http://www.ubuntu.com
> http://www.theopencd.org
>


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Re: Re: (Yet another) new logout dialog

Eric Feliksik
In reply to this post by Mark Shuttleworth
Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
> A better use of our time would be figuring out how to disable options
> that don't work on specific hardware! Perhaps some sort of "oops I
> failed to hibernate" tracking could be used to hint the system that it
> really, really does not want to offer the hibernate option any more.
> This needs to be robust in the face of minor errors.
>

Seems relevant to me, my computer often crashes when recovering from a
hibernation.

(I discussed this with some dev's, and the bug is being triaged, but the
reality is that we can't guarantee anything yet).

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