brainstorming for UDS-N - Package Selection and Defaults

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brainstorming for UDS-N - Package Selection and Defaults

Allison Randal-4
The Package Selection and Defaults track is about choosing the
best-of-breed packages (applications, libraries, etc), a common task
across all editions of Ubuntu. It includes considering the viability of
up-and-coming new software, the decline of end-of-life packages, the
risks and gains of upgrades and migrations.

What's high on your list for this area?
Allison

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Re: brainstorming for UDS-N - Package Selection and Defaults

C de-Avillez-2
On Tue, 28 Sep 2010 21:47:04 +0200
Allison Randal <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The Package Selection and Defaults track is about choosing the
> best-of-breed packages (applications, libraries, etc), a common task
> across all editions of Ubuntu. It includes considering the viability
> of up-and-coming new software, the decline of end-of-life packages,
> the risks and gains of upgrades and migrations.
>
> What's high on your list for this area?
> Allison
>

I would like to see byobu as a default install for servers [1]

Cheers,

[1] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/byobu/+bug/586546

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Re: brainstorming for UDS-N - Package Selection and Defaults

Mackenzie Morgan-3
In reply to this post by Allison Randal-4
Looking at old Blueprints, I saw one for font management from 2006. [1] It
reminded me that Akkana Peck was not long ago complaining in #ubuntu-women
about the font manager situation (no way to tell apps not to show fonts for
languages she doesn't speak, no way to categorise, etc) in Ubuntu.  She ended
up writing an app called Fontasia[2] that handles these use-cases nicely.  
It's a small PyGTK app, and I told her I'd package it for her after she makes
the UI tweaks she mentions in link 2 (which I think she did a few days ago).  

Perhaps time to revisit that old spec and include such an app?

[1] https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/font-management
[2] http://shallowsky.com/blog/programming/fontasia-03.html


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Re: brainstorming for UDS-N - Package Selection and Defaults

Shane Fagan-2
In reply to this post by Allison Randal-4
On Tue, 2010-09-28 at 21:47 +0200, Allison Randal wrote:
> The Package Selection and Defaults track is about choosing the
> best-of-breed packages (applications, libraries, etc), a common task
> across all editions of Ubuntu. It includes considering the viability of
> up-and-coming new software, the decline of end-of-life packages, the
> risks and gains of upgrades and migrations.
>
> What's high on your list for this area?
> Allison
>
Id say for the 4th UDS in a row its going to be a lot about the media
player.

--fagan


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Re: brainstorming for UDS-N - Package Selection and Defaults

Scott Kitterman-3
In reply to this post by Allison Randal-4
On Tuesday, September 28, 2010 03:47:04 pm Allison Randal wrote:
> The Package Selection and Defaults track is about choosing the
> best-of-breed packages (applications, libraries, etc), a common task
> across all editions of Ubuntu. It includes considering the viability of
> up-and-coming new software, the decline of end-of-life packages, the
> risks and gains of upgrades and migrations.
>
> What's high on your list for this area?
> Allison

I'd like to make sure we have a clear, long-term, project wide vision for GUI
network management clients.  I understand Conman was viewed as the future, but
is that still the case and what do we need to do to get it properly supported
across the Ubuntu project?

Scott K

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Re: brainstorming for UDS-N - Package Selection and Defaults

Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre-3
On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 9:40 PM, Scott Kitterman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'd like to make sure we have a clear, long-term, project wide vision for GUI
> network management clients.  I understand Conman was viewed as the future, but
> is that still the case and what do we need to do to get it properly supported
> across the Ubuntu project?
>

Good idea. I think making sure connman and network-manager can be used
interchangeably is a good thing, regardless of the choices made w/r/t
which GUI will be default where. After all, having choice is the
fundamental idea behind open source ;)

In my mind this goes as far as making sure indicator-network works as
well with connman as it does with NM as a backend, so the user
experience is the same between Ubuntu flavours.

Since connman didn't make it for maverick on UNE, I'd suspect a fair
assumption is that the plan still is to try to have it for UNE for
Natty...

That said, that's one of the things I will be focusing on at UDS;
along with a blueprint I have yet to write regarding upgrades to the
networking stack in general. One thing I'd really like to see is at
least isc-dhcp 4 as default, an updated wpasupplicant (0.7), etc. At
the very least isc-dhcp 4 would be a huge plus for future updates to
NetworkManager. I'm sure we could think of a couple more things in
just networking quite easily.

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Re: brainstorming for UDS-N - Package Selection and Defaults

Jussi Schultink-2
On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 4:55 AM, Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 9:40 PM, Scott Kitterman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I'd like to make sure we have a clear, long-term, project wide vision for GUI
>> network management clients.  I understand Conman was viewed as the future, but
>> is that still the case and what do we need to do to get it properly supported
>> across the Ubuntu project?
>>
>
> Good idea. I think making sure connman and network-manager can be used
> interchangeably is a good thing, regardless of the choices made w/r/t
> which GUI will be default where. After all, having choice is the
> fundamental idea behind open source ;)
>
> In my mind this goes as far as making sure indicator-network works as
> well with connman as it does with NM as a backend, so the user
> experience is the same between Ubuntu flavours.
>
> Since connman didn't make it for maverick on UNE, I'd suspect a fair
> assumption is that the plan still is to try to have it for UNE for
> Natty...
>
> That said, that's one of the things I will be focusing on at UDS;
> along with a blueprint I have yet to write regarding upgrades to the
> networking stack in general. One thing I'd really like to see is at
> least isc-dhcp 4 as default, an updated wpasupplicant (0.7), etc. At
> the very least isc-dhcp 4 would be a huge plus for future updates to
> NetworkManager. I'm sure we could think of a couple more things in
> just networking quite easily.
>
From my point of view we need to really look hard at the default IRC
client in Ubuntu (Kubuntu is fine). Empathy is not anywhere near the
standard required for an IRC client, missing many features and is
generally hard to use. I personally would like to see
xchat/xchat-gnome, but we need to explore other options also,
including the possibility of writing some sort of "help client" as
discussed at the last UDS. (this would have to be an additional
feature, and probably integrated into other "help" areas).

Please consider this!

Jussi.

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Re: brainstorming for UDS-N - Package Selection and Defaults

Scott Ritchie
In reply to this post by Allison Randal-4
On 09/28/2010 12:47 PM, Allison Randal wrote:
> The Package Selection and Defaults track is about choosing the
> best-of-breed packages (applications, libraries, etc), a common task
> across all editions of Ubuntu. It includes considering the viability of
> up-and-coming new software, the decline of end-of-life packages, the
> risks and gains of upgrades and migrations.
>
> What's high on your list for this area?
> Allison
>

I'd like the Wine experience much better.  This means:

1) Installing gnome-exe-thumbnailer by default (and also icoutils) so
Windows apps show their embedded icons and a wine glass before Wine is
installed
2) Installing an equivalent of "gnome-codec-install" to suggest
installing Wine when one is opened

This has been brought up (and even approved) before with a spec in the
Karmic cycle, however that was so long ago I believe I need to ask again.

-Scott Ritchie

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Re: brainstorming for UDS-N - Package Selection and Defaults

Jan Claeys-3
In reply to this post by Mackenzie Morgan-3
Op dinsdag 28-09-2010 om 18:56 uur [tijdzone -0400], schreef Mackenzie
Morgan:
> Looking at old Blueprints, I saw one for font management from 2006.
> [1] It reminded me that Akkana Peck was not long ago complaining in
> #ubuntu-women about the font manager situation (no way to tell apps
> not to show fonts for languages she doesn't speak, no way to
> categorise, etc) in Ubuntu.  She ended up writing an app called
> Fontasia[2] that handles these use-cases nicely.  
[...]
> Perhaps time to revisit that old spec and include such an app?
>
> [1] https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/font-management
> [2] http://shallowsky.com/blog/programming/fontasia-03.html

There is also Font Manager, which works great:
http://packages.ubuntu.com/maverick/font-manager
http://code.google.com/p/font-manager/
One of the nice features is that you can disable system fonts.



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Re: brainstorming for UDS-N - Package Selection and Defaults

Mackenzie Morgan-3
In reply to this post by Jussi Schultink-2
On Wednesday, September 29, 2010 07:26:30 am Jussi Schultink wrote:
> From my point of view we need to really look hard at the default IRC
> client in Ubuntu (Kubuntu is fine). Empathy is not anywhere near the
> standard required for an IRC client, missing many features and is
> generally hard to use. I personally would like to see
> xchat/xchat-gnome, but we need to explore other options also,
> including the possibility of writing some sort of "help client" as
> discussed at the last UDS. (this would have to be an additional
> feature, and probably integrated into other "help" areas).

+1 absolutely!

Seeing you dealing with someone on IRC the other day who didn't have a server
status window (or couldn't find it at any rate) because they were using Empathy
was mind-boggling.  The auto-scrolling makes it too hard to keep up, and
well... isn't the reason Empathy doesn't offer IRC on the initial account
creation GUI (it's there if you look after setting up a first account) because
the developers don't like it either?

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Re: brainstorming for UDS-N - Package Selection and Defaults

Jorge O. Castro-3
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 12:31 PM, Mackenzie Morgan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 29, 2010 07:26:30 am Jussi Schultink wrote:
>> From my point of view we need to really look hard at the default IRC
>> client in Ubuntu (Kubuntu is fine).
>
> +1 absolutely!

You are both correct, what an opportune time to finally get rid of the
insane notion that an operating system needs an IRC client by default!

(I am totally serious, and flames offlist please. :) )

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Re: brainstorming for UDS-N - Package Selection and Defaults

Mario Limonciello-2
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 15:52, Jorge O. Castro <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 12:31 PM, Mackenzie Morgan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 29, 2010 07:26:30 am Jussi Schultink wrote:
>> From my point of view we need to really look hard at the default IRC
>> client in Ubuntu (Kubuntu is fine).
>
> +1 absolutely!

You are both correct, what an opportune time to finally get rid of the
insane notion that an operating system needs an IRC client by default!

(I am totally serious, and flames offlist please. :) )


I have to agree with Jorge here.  Outside of my geeky friends and fellow Ubuntu developers, most people don't know what IRC even is.
 
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Re: brainstorming for UDS-N - Package Selection and Defaults

Mackenzie Morgan-3
On Thursday, September 30, 2010 05:22:48 pm Mario Limonciello wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 15:52, Jorge O. Castro <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > You are both correct, what an opportune time to finally get rid of the
> > insane notion that an operating system needs an IRC client by default!
> >
> > (I am totally serious, and flames offlist please. :) )
>
> I have to agree with Jorge here.  Outside of my geeky friends and fellow
> Ubuntu developers, most people don't know what IRC even is.

The only mode of real-time tech support within the Ubuntu community?

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Re: brainstorming for UDS-N - Package Selection and Defaults

Shane Fagan-2
On Thu, 2010-09-30 at 18:01 -0400, Mackenzie Morgan wrote:

> On Thursday, September 30, 2010 05:22:48 pm Mario Limonciello wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 15:52, Jorge O. Castro <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > You are both correct, what an opportune time to finally get rid of the
> > > insane notion that an operating system needs an IRC client by default!
> > >
> > > (I am totally serious, and flames offlist please. :) )
> >
> > I have to agree with Jorge here.  Outside of my geeky friends and fellow
> > Ubuntu developers, most people don't know what IRC even is.
>
> The only mode of real-time tech support within the Ubuntu community?
>
> --
> Mackenzie Morgan
>
I have to agree with the others on this one IRC is a little bit out of
most users lives. Id say we should just fix empathy's crappy IRC or not
include an IRC client at all. (And by fix I mean make the UI a lot more
responsive and to not auto scroll down when you are scrolling up or
crash when you get more than 100 missed messages). And on the support
thing we really should direct people to launchpad answers and the ubuntu
forums more than IRC because its a lot harder to give out real time
answers to more technical questions (especially on weekends).

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Re: brainstorming for UDS-N - Package Selection and Defaults

Jan Claeys-3
In reply to this post by Mario Limonciello-2
Op donderdag 30-09-2010 om 16:22 uur [tijdzone -0500], schreef Mario
Limonciello:
> I have to agree with Jorge here.  Outside of my geeky friends and
> fellow Ubuntu developers, most people don't know what IRC even is.

That might depend on where you live I guess, and some might just know it
as "the chat"...

People who have been online for long enough often remember it, and when
looking at a local IRC network here, most users who still use it aren't
geeks (they are using it through the web client hosted by a large
portal, which only gives access to their own channels).

Which might point to a solution: why not point to a webchat that works
properly for support questions?  Preferably there should also be some
way for people to find & open the right channels for their problem
(based on country, language, type of problem, and maybe other criteria).


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Re: brainstorming for UDS-N - Package Selection and Defaults

Jussi Schultink-2
In reply to this post by Jorge O. Castro-3
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 11:52 PM, Jorge O. Castro <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 12:31 PM, Mackenzie Morgan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, September 29, 2010 07:26:30 am Jussi Schultink wrote:
>>> From my point of view we need to really look hard at the default IRC
>>> client in Ubuntu (Kubuntu is fine).
>>
>> +1 absolutely!
>
> You are both correct, what an opportune time to finally get rid of the
> insane notion that an operating system needs an IRC client by default!
>
> (I am totally serious, and flames offlist please. :) )
>
We have literally thousands of people that come on IRC every day to
get support, and many many of these have never used IRC before. As
Mackenzie has mentioned, do you really want to do away by default with
the only realtime tech support that ubuntu offers?

It is very important that we have a simple to use, but still
technically capable client for those people seeking support.

Jussi.


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Re: brainstorming for UDS-N - Package Selection and Defaults

Ahmed Kamal-5
In reply to this post by Mackenzie Morgan-3
  On 10/01/2010 12:01 AM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote:

> On Thursday, September 30, 2010 05:22:48 pm Mario Limonciello wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 15:52, Jorge O. Castro<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>> You are both correct, what an opportune time to finally get rid of the
>>> insane notion that an operating system needs an IRC client by default!
>>>
>>> (I am totally serious, and flames offlist please. :) )
>> I have to agree with Jorge here.  Outside of my geeky friends and fellow
>> Ubuntu developers, most people don't know what IRC even is.
> The only mode of real-time tech support within the Ubuntu community?
>
What about having a desktop link that takes new users to
webchat.freenode.net #ubuntu for support, no need to register an account
or ask IR-what

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Re: brainstorming for UDS-N - Package Selection and Defaults

Vishnoo-2
In reply to this post by Mackenzie Morgan-3
On Thu, 2010-09-30 at 18:01 -0400, Mackenzie Morgan wrote:

> On Thursday, September 30, 2010 05:22:48 pm Mario Limonciello wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 15:52, Jorge O. Castro <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > You are both correct, what an opportune time to finally get rid of the
> > > insane notion that an operating system needs an IRC client by default!
> > >
> > > (I am totally serious, and flames offlist please. :) )
> >
> > I have to agree with Jorge here.  Outside of my geeky friends and fellow
> > Ubuntu developers, most people don't know what IRC even is.
>
> The only mode of real-time tech support within the Ubuntu community?
>

IMO, What the LoCo site has done is absolutely neat.
If its only about getting help out for the new users something like this
would lower the barrier a lot :
<http://loco.ubuntu.com/irc/>

All somebody wants is help at *that* moment, no need for a default IRC
client.
Maybe just a link directing to something official like
<http://support.ubuntu.com/irc/> would be sufficient?

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Re: brainstorming for UDS-N - Package Selection and Defaults

Jani Monoses-2
In reply to this post by Mackenzie Morgan-3
On 10/01/2010 01:01 AM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote:

> On Thursday, September 30, 2010 05:22:48 pm Mario Limonciello wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 15:52, Jorge O. Castro<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>> You are both correct, what an opportune time to finally get rid of the
>>> insane notion that an operating system needs an IRC client by default!
>>>
>>> (I am totally serious, and flames offlist please. :) )
>>
>> I have to agree with Jorge here.  Outside of my geeky friends and fellow
>> Ubuntu developers, most people don't know what IRC even is.
>
> The only mode of real-time tech support within the Ubuntu community?

But the notion of real time tech support itself is also quite geeky.
Users who are savvy enough will probably google or maybe search the
Ubuntu fora directly for answers, while the others will rely on people
who installed Ubuntu on their machine for tech support.

I am not sure how popular LP Answers is, but if IRC is really needed
then providing an official web-based IRC client/proxy by default will
probably cover the real time interaction requirement without the
complexities that come with a fully featured IRC client.

Jani




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Re: brainstorming for UDS-N - Package Selection and Defaults

Krzysztof Klimonda-3
On Fri, 2010-10-01 at 22:41 +0300, Jani Monoses wrote:

> >> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 15:52, Jorge O. Castro<[hidden email]>  wrote:
> >>> You are both correct, what an opportune time to finally get rid of the
> >>> insane notion that an operating system needs an IRC client by default!
> >>>
> >>> (I am totally serious, and flames offlist please. :) )
> >>
> >> I have to agree with Jorge here.  Outside of my geeky friends and fellow
> >> Ubuntu developers, most people don't know what IRC even is.
> >
> > The only mode of real-time tech support within the Ubuntu community?
>
> But the notion of real time tech support itself is also quite geeky.
> Users who are savvy enough will probably google or maybe search the
> Ubuntu fora directly for answers, while the others will rely on people
> who installed Ubuntu on their machine for tech support.
>
> I am not sure how popular LP Answers is, but if IRC is really needed
> then providing an official web-based IRC client/proxy by default will
> probably cover the real time interaction requirement without the
> complexities that come with a fully featured IRC client.
>
Sure, so we don't need a fully featured IRC client but I disagree that
removing support for IRC from Telepathy is a good idea - I, for one,
have used IRC in the past when booted from the LiveCD (if only to chat
with friends while I wait for something to finish). telepathy-idle takes
only 220kB installed, less then 70kB when compressed - I don't think
it's worth the effort to remove it completely.

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