localhost or LAN addresses in /etc/hosts

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Re: localhost or LAN addresses in /etc/hosts

Bart Silverstrim
Derek Broughton wrote:

> Bart Silverstrim wrote:
>
>>> Now if you let a Router set your
>>> ip numbers it will do it but not the same way all the time. You add
>>> another item and ALL ip numbers can change.
>> Depends on the router. The part that differentiates how it works is
>> the DHCP server software. You CAN tell your DHCP server, if it
>> supports it, to always give a specific MAC address a specific IP
>> address just like you can configure it to hand out an address for a
>> specified period of time, and DNS servers are able to tie a specific
>> record to a specific IP.
>>
>> If your router is bargain basement then yeah, it'll seem random if it
>> lacks features. But it can most certainly be done, and in many cases
>> if the feature is there the user just never bothered to configure it
>> so they're using the defaults.
>
> Not to mention, most DHCP servers will reassign exactly the same address
> to a device every time it asks, provided the address pool is large
> enough that it doesn't need to recycle them.  This isn't guaranteed, but
> it is extremely likely.

Don't rely on it though!

I've had plenty of cases where DHCP servers will goof with it at an
inopportune moment. It depends on the implementation.


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Re: localhost or LAN addresses in /etc/hosts

Bart Silverstrim
In reply to this post by Derek Broughton-2
Derek Broughton wrote:

> Chris G wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 02:44:28PM -0400, Derek Broughton wrote:
>
>>> No, that's just the ONE place you have to do things.  In the time
>>> you've been asking us how to do this with a piece of software that
>>> you had to add to your system, I could have done the setup dozens of
>>> times on a router.
>>>
>> ... and, similarly, I could have done it by editing /etc/hosts.
>
> If you _could_ you wouldn't have  been asking here.

I think the important thing at this particular point is to have everyone
just stop and review what the actual question is and what the options
are and then go from there. It sounds almost like now Chris (you're the
original poster, yes?) wanted a setup on a small network for DHCP
and...what? Making sure particular machines had the same IP every time?
Making sure they have particular DNS names? What is it exactly you're
trying to do on your network?

There are twelve ways to do things on any given network and if you
really want to do it the old fashioned way, give every device you will
constantly use a static IP, set up your Linux box as a DNS caching
server with your internal records authoritative for your internal IP's
and forwarding non-internal requests to your external DNS, and you'll
speed up your DNS searches in addition to having network names set up.
Set up DHCP for whatever block you want visitors to use, document your
network map, and you should be good to go. Would that work?

I'm sure I'm missing what additional functionality you're looking for,
but this is a simple way to add the services that have been being hashed
in the thread for awhile here...

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Re: localhost or LAN addresses in /etc/hosts

Chris Green
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 08:58:43AM -0500, Bart Silverstrim wrote:

> Derek Broughton wrote:
> > Chris G wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 02:44:28PM -0400, Derek Broughton wrote:
> >
> >>> No, that's just the ONE place you have to do things.  In the time
> >>> you've been asking us how to do this with a piece of software that
> >>> you had to add to your system, I could have done the setup dozens of
> >>> times on a router.
> >>>
> >> ... and, similarly, I could have done it by editing /etc/hosts.
> >
> > If you _could_ you wouldn't have  been asking here.
>
> I think the important thing at this particular point is to have everyone
> just stop and review what the actual question is and what the options
> are and then go from there. It sounds almost like now Chris (you're the
> original poster, yes?) wanted a setup on a small network for DHCP
> and...what? Making sure particular machines had the same IP every time?
> Making sure they have particular DNS names? What is it exactly you're
> trying to do on your network?
>
I'm trying to use it!  :-)  I don't mind in the slightest whether it
uses/needs a DHCP server, or dnsmasq, or does clever things in the
router.  I want whichever of these various approaches will give me the
simplest network to set up and maintain.


> There are twelve ways to do things on any given network and if you
> really want to do it the old fashioned way, give every device you will
> constantly use a static IP, set up your Linux box as a DNS caching
> server with your internal records authoritative for your internal IP's
> and forwarding non-internal requests to your external DNS, and you'll
> speed up your DNS searches in addition to having network names set up.
> Set up DHCP for whatever block you want visitors to use, document your
> network map, and you should be good to go. Would that work?
>
Probably, but it will need more configuration and management than is
strictly necessary surely.


> I'm sure I'm missing what additional functionality you're looking for,
> but this is a simple way to add the services that have been being hashed
> in the thread for awhile here...
>
When I started this thread I was just asking if *removing* the
127.0.0.x entries in /etc/hosts which have the name of the local
machine in them would break anything.  If I do that then dnsmasq
provides all I need on the local network with *very simple*
configuration.  To me it seems much simpler to do things this way than
other approaches that have been suggested here, it may not be for
everyone but that's not really the issue.

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Re: localhost or LAN addresses in /etc/hosts

Chris Green
In reply to this post by Derek Broughton-2
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 09:11:16AM -0400, Derek Broughton wrote:

> Chris G wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 02:44:28PM -0400, Derek Broughton wrote:
>
> >> No, that's just the ONE place you have to do things.  In the time
> >> you've been asking us how to do this with a piece of software that
> >> you had to add to your system, I could have done the setup dozens of
> >> times on a router.
> >>
> > ... and, similarly, I could have done it by editing /etc/hosts.
>
> If you _could_ you wouldn't have  been asking here.
>
> > Who says - I seem to have it working fine now using dnsmasq and simple
> > names.  I just guessed that I *could* remove the entries I was
> > originally asking about and it all works OK.  It's what dnsmasq is
> > specifically designed to do as far as I understand it.
>
> Except  that you have now broken your /etc/hosts.  Why do you think it
> is set up with your local host on the 127.*.*.* subnet?
>
> > That's what my original question was about.  All I wanted to know was
> > whether I could remove the local host name from the 127.0.0.1 and
> > 127.0.1.1 entries and leave it against the 192.168.1.4 entry.  It
> > turns out that I *can* do this and everything works well with dnsmasq.
>
> Of course you _can_ do that - but now you can't address your machine
> except by going out over the network.

I still have the localhost entries in /etc/hosts, so I can most
certainly address my machine without going out.

As an aside it appears to be *quicker* to go out 'over the network'
than to use localhost anyway:-

    chris$ ping localhost
    PING localhost.localdomain (127.0.0.1) 56(84) bytes of data.
    64 bytes from localhost.localdomain (127.0.0.1): icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=0.027 ms
    64 bytes from localhost.localdomain (127.0.0.1): icmp_seq=2 ttl=64 time=0.028 ms
    64 bytes from localhost.localdomain (127.0.0.1): icmp_seq=3 ttl=64 time=0.028 ms
    64 bytes from localhost.localdomain (127.0.0.1): icmp_seq=4 ttl=64 time=0.028 ms
    64 bytes from localhost.localdomain (127.0.0.1): icmp_seq=5 ttl=64 time=0.028 ms

    chris$ ping isbd
    PING home.isbd.net (192.168.1.4) 56(84) bytes of data.
    64 bytes from home.isbd.net (192.168.1.4): icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=0.025 ms
    64 bytes from home.isbd.net (192.168.1.4): icmp_seq=2 ttl=64 time=0.023 ms
    64 bytes from home.isbd.net (192.168.1.4): icmp_seq=3 ttl=64 time=0.022 ms
    64 bytes from home.isbd.net (192.168.1.4): icmp_seq=4 ttl=64 time=0.025 ms
    64 bytes from home.isbd.net (192.168.1.4): icmp_seq=5 ttl=64 time=0.024 ms
    64 bytes from home.isbd.net (192.168.1.4): icmp_seq=6 ttl=64 time=0.023 ms
    64 bytes from home.isbd.net (192.168.1.4): icmp_seq=7 ttl=64 time=0.022 ms
    64 bytes from home.isbd.net (192.168.1.4): icmp_seq=8 ttl=64 time=0.024 ms

In fact I'm not at all convinced that a connection to isbd from isbd
does really go out and back.


This is with /etc/hosts as follows:-

    127.0.0.1   localhost.localdomain   localhost

    192.168.1.4 home.isbd.net isbd 84-45-228-40.no-dns-yet.enta.net chris.isbd.net




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Re: localhost or LAN addresses in /etc/hosts

Chris Green
In reply to this post by Bart Silverstrim
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 08:50:54AM -0500, Bart Silverstrim wrote:

> NoOp wrote:
>
> > For others that advocate DHCP on a small local network:
> >
> > The advantages of static IP's in a small local network are even more
> > evident when you use VPN's, VNC, or a central printer - particularly if
> > you use IPP to connect to the printer.
>
> I don't suppose the network-manager bugs have been fixed yet, have they?
> On my machine after upgrading to 8.10 I could no longer use a static IP!
>
> THAT is a PITA!
>
It worked for me, I think I had to 'persuade' network-manager a bit
but it made it in the end.

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Re: localhost or LAN addresses in /etc/hosts

Rashkae-2
Chris G wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 08:50:54AM -0500, Bart Silverstrim wrote:
>> NoOp wrote:
>>
>>> For others that advocate DHCP on a small local network:
>>>
>>> The advantages of static IP's in a small local network are even more
>>> evident when you use VPN's, VNC, or a central printer - particularly if
>>> you use IPP to connect to the printer.
>> I don't suppose the network-manager bugs have been fixed yet, have they?
>> On my machine after upgrading to 8.10 I could no longer use a static IP!
>>
>> THAT is a PITA!
>>
> It worked for me, I think I had to 'persuade' network-manager a bit
> but it made it in the end.
>

The easiest way to persuade network manager is about anything is to
uninstall it.

Network manager might well be the best thing since sliced bread for
people who want to move their computers around and connect anywhere with
zero configuration.  But if your computer is staying put, even if
Network manager is working perfectly, the only thing it accomplishes is
using memory with yet another useless background process.  (Still
waiting for an easy way to enable/disable network manager at will ala
Services.)

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Re: localhost or LAN addresses in /etc/hosts

H.S.
In reply to this post by Chris Green
Chris G wrote:

> machine in them would break anything.  If I do that then dnsmasq
> provides all I need on the local network with *very simple*
> configuration.  To me it seems much simpler to do things this way than
> other approaches that have been suggested here, it may not be for
> everyone but that's not really the issue.
>

I agree. I have a home network of at least 5 machines. With other
machines, it can be up to 8 or 10. I used to have the configurations in
/etc/hosts files, but since switching to dnsmasq (yup, you need the
dnsmasq machine up all the time, as I do since I am also running some
servers), it have found it to be easiest method because I have realized
I need some flexibility. Others' MMV.

->HS

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Re: localhost or LAN addresses in /etc/hosts

Bart Silverstrim
In reply to this post by Chris Green
Chris G wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 08:58:43AM -0500, Bart Silverstrim wrote:

>> I think the important thing at this particular point is to have everyone
>> just stop and review what the actual question is and what the options
>> are and then go from there. It sounds almost like now Chris (you're the
>> original poster, yes?) wanted a setup on a small network for DHCP
>> and...what? Making sure particular machines had the same IP every time?
>> Making sure they have particular DNS names? What is it exactly you're
>> trying to do on your network?
>>
> I'm trying to use it!  :-)  I don't mind in the slightest whether it
> uses/needs a DHCP server, or dnsmasq, or does clever things in the
> router.  I want whichever of these various approaches will give me the
> simplest network to set up and maintain.

Okay,...what isn't working?

The *simplest* would be static IP's across the board and you'd
memorize...believe me if you use them it won't take long...the IP
address of the device(s) you use, especially if it's a small network.

Do you require simplified names for things? If you have a few specific
systems you use like that,...are you accessing them from Linux, or
another OS? And how many systems are we talking about here?

>> There are twelve ways to do things on any given network and if you
>> really want to do it the old fashioned way, give every device you will
>> constantly use a static IP, set up your Linux box as a DNS caching
>> server with your internal records authoritative for your internal IP's
>> and forwarding non-internal requests to your external DNS, and you'll
>> speed up your DNS searches in addition to having network names set up.
>> Set up DHCP for whatever block you want visitors to use, document your
>> network map, and you should be good to go. Would that work?
>>
> Probably, but it will need more configuration and management than is
> strictly necessary surely.

Only in the beginning. Once set up the record keeping should be pretty
robust. Most implementations you just set up one file and restart the
service to refresh the records.

>> I'm sure I'm missing what additional functionality you're looking for,
>> but this is a simple way to add the services that have been being hashed
>> in the thread for awhile here...
>>
> When I started this thread I was just asking if *removing* the
> 127.0.0.x entries in /etc/hosts which have the name of the local
> machine in them would break anything.  

It can, yes. There are some programs that will have troubles, but I
can't remember specifically. It's one of those things you normally do
not tinker with, entries for localhost.

>If I do that then dnsmasq
> provides all I need on the local network with *very simple*
> configuration.  To me it seems much simpler to do things this way than
> other approaches that have been suggested here, it may not be for
> everyone but that's not really the issue.

For small networks (how many do you have again, devices?) I've never run
into anyone running dnsmasq. Most people have one or two computers they
primarily use and more than that, they're techies, and they end up
memorizing IP's anyway. What functionality are you looking for out of
dnsmasq in particular that you're lacking now?

A number of people have shared their configs, and in my experience
techies are lazy with their technology, going with the simplest setups
for them that keep them from pulling their hair out. Generally speaking
it sounds like the consensus is assign static IPs to devices you use
habitually on the network, edit your hosts files on primary systems, and
DHCP your friends and transients and don't worry about hostnames for them.

That would be the simplest bet.

If you want something more complicated, the previously mentioned DNS
server combined with a DHCP server would be a good bet.

If there's particular functionality you need maybe someone can share how
they do it, but a list of static IP's is probably the simplest to
maintain on small networks.

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Re: localhost or LAN addresses in /etc/hosts

Bart Silverstrim
In reply to this post by Chris Green
Chris G wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 08:50:54AM -0500, Bart Silverstrim wrote:
>> NoOp wrote:
>>
>>> For others that advocate DHCP on a small local network:
>>>
>>> The advantages of static IP's in a small local network are even more
>>> evident when you use VPN's, VNC, or a central printer - particularly if
>>> you use IPP to connect to the printer.
>> I don't suppose the network-manager bugs have been fixed yet, have they?
>> On my machine after upgrading to 8.10 I could no longer use a static IP!
>>
>> THAT is a PITA!
>>
> It worked for me, I think I had to 'persuade' network-manager a bit
> but it made it in the end.

How did you "persuade" it? Dangle a magnet in front of the CPU and smile
mischievously?

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Re: localhost or LAN addresses in /etc/hosts

Bart Silverstrim
In reply to this post by Rashkae-2
Rashkae wrote:

> Chris G wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 08:50:54AM -0500, Bart Silverstrim wrote:
>>> NoOp wrote:
>>>
>>>> For others that advocate DHCP on a small local network:
>>>>
>>>> The advantages of static IP's in a small local network are even more
>>>> evident when you use VPN's, VNC, or a central printer - particularly if
>>>> you use IPP to connect to the printer.
>>> I don't suppose the network-manager bugs have been fixed yet, have they?
>>> On my machine after upgrading to 8.10 I could no longer use a static IP!
>>>
>>> THAT is a PITA!
>>>
>> It worked for me, I think I had to 'persuade' network-manager a bit
>> but it made it in the end.
>>
>
> The easiest way to persuade network manager is about anything is to
> uninstall it.

I'm sure there are various ways to do it, but what is the best practice
for configuring the network after that? Just editing the /etc files by hand?

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Re: localhost or LAN addresses in /etc/hosts

Rashkae-2
Bart Silverstrim wrote:

> Rashkae wrote:
>> Chris G wrote:
>>> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 08:50:54AM -0500, Bart Silverstrim wrote:
>>>> NoOp wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> For others that advocate DHCP on a small local network:
>>>>>
>>>>> The advantages of static IP's in a small local network are even more
>>>>> evident when you use VPN's, VNC, or a central printer - particularly if
>>>>> you use IPP to connect to the printer.
>>>> I don't suppose the network-manager bugs have been fixed yet, have they?
>>>> On my machine after upgrading to 8.10 I could no longer use a static IP!
>>>>
>>>> THAT is a PITA!
>>>>
>>> It worked for me, I think I had to 'persuade' network-manager a bit
>>> but it made it in the end.
>>>
>> The easiest way to persuade network manager is about anything is to
>> uninstall it.
>
> I'm sure there are various ways to do it, but what is the best practice
> for configuring the network after that? Just editing the /etc files by hand?
>

My old habits of putting ifconfig and route add commands into rc.local
notwithstanding?

Ubuntu comes with an awesome network configuration GUI, accessed through
System -> Administration -> Network.  The settings here should be
intuitively simple for anyone who has ever networked Win 95 through to
Win XP as well as Macintosh.  This will take care of the
/etc/network/interfaces, /etc/hostname /etc/hosts (at least, for the
localhost entries) /etc/resolv.conf etc.  This GUI tool still works once
you rip out Network Manager.  (I had difficulty setting up ADSL with
this GUI in Hardy.  However, there were some ISP issues that had to be
addressed, and I never bothered going back and trying again once I had
it working manually.)

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Re: localhost or LAN addresses in /etc/hosts

Bart Silverstrim
Rashkae wrote:

> Bart Silverstrim wrote:
>> Rashkae wrote:
>>> Chris G wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 08:50:54AM -0500, Bart Silverstrim wrote:
>>>>> NoOp wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> For others that advocate DHCP on a small local network:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The advantages of static IP's in a small local network are even more
>>>>>> evident when you use VPN's, VNC, or a central printer - particularly if
>>>>>> you use IPP to connect to the printer.
>>>>> I don't suppose the network-manager bugs have been fixed yet, have they?
>>>>> On my machine after upgrading to 8.10 I could no longer use a static IP!
>>>>>
>>>>> THAT is a PITA!
>>>>>
>>>> It worked for me, I think I had to 'persuade' network-manager a bit
>>>> but it made it in the end.
>>>>
>>> The easiest way to persuade network manager is about anything is to
>>> uninstall it.
>> I'm sure there are various ways to do it, but what is the best practice
>> for configuring the network after that? Just editing the /etc files by hand?
>>
>
> My old habits of putting ifconfig and route add commands into rc.local
> notwithstanding?
>
> Ubuntu comes with an awesome network configuration GUI, accessed through
> System -> Administration -> Network.  The settings here should be
> intuitively simple for anyone who has ever networked Win 95 through to
> Win XP as well as Macintosh.  This will take care of the
> /etc/network/interfaces, /etc/hostname /etc/hosts (at least, for the
> localhost entries) /etc/resolv.conf etc.  This GUI tool still works once
> you rip out Network Manager.  (I had difficulty setting up ADSL with
> this GUI in Hardy.  However, there were some ISP issues that had to be
> addressed, and I never bothered going back and trying again once I had
> it working manually.)

Okay, I was thinking that utility was tied to network manager.
Apparently the bug...which I think was discussed on the list...that
kills static IP's on some systems is linked to network manager and
network manager isn't the network admin tool in the menus that I thought
it was.

I'll have to remove network manager and see if I configure to a static
IP again.

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Re: localhost or LAN addresses in /etc/hosts

Rashkae-2
Bart Silverstrim wrote:

>
> Okay, I was thinking that utility was tied to network manager.
> Apparently the bug...which I think was discussed on the list...that
> kills static IP's on some systems is linked to network manager and
> network manager isn't the network admin tool in the menus that I thought
> it was.
>
> I'll have to remove network manager and see if I configure to a static
> IP again.
>

Network Manager is the kind of abomination that should only be installed
by default on Notebooks to begin with.  </rant>

(And even then, I know of many more experienced users who prefer to
manage their wireless with something they have easier control over, such
as WICD, but I understand the goal of getting Network Manger up to
snuff.. when perfected, it will be / is awesome for portable devices.)
However, if you have to configure network settings, the whole point of
Network Manager is already moot, so if it gets in your way, you might as
well get rid of it.

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Re: localhost or LAN addresses in /etc/hosts

Chris Green
In reply to this post by Bart Silverstrim
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 10:43:05AM -0500, Bart Silverstrim wrote:

> Chris G wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 08:58:43AM -0500, Bart Silverstrim wrote:
>
> >> I think the important thing at this particular point is to have everyone
> >> just stop and review what the actual question is and what the options
> >> are and then go from there. It sounds almost like now Chris (you're the
> >> original poster, yes?) wanted a setup on a small network for DHCP
> >> and...what? Making sure particular machines had the same IP every time?
> >> Making sure they have particular DNS names? What is it exactly you're
> >> trying to do on your network?
> >>
> > I'm trying to use it!  :-)  I don't mind in the slightest whether it
> > uses/needs a DHCP server, or dnsmasq, or does clever things in the
> > router.  I want whichever of these various approaches will give me the
> > simplest network to set up and maintain.
>
> Okay,...what isn't working?
>
Nothing!  It's all working fine.  As I said all I wanted to know
originally was whether I could remove a couple of entries from
/etc/hosts.  It turns out that I can remove the entries and thus as a
result dnsmasq works perfectly and I have all I want.


> The *simplest* would be static IP's across the board and you'd
> memorize...believe me if you use them it won't take long...the IP
> address of the device(s) you use, especially if it's a small network.
>
*I* remember them but it doesn't necessarily mean that other family
members do.

> It can, yes. There are some programs that will have troubles, but I
> can't remember specifically. It's one of those things you normally do
> not tinker with, entries for localhost.
>
Not localhost, that's still there.  It's the entries that ubuntu adds
for the machine name.

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Re: localhost or LAN addresses in /etc/hosts

Chris Green
In reply to this post by Bart Silverstrim
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 10:45:50AM -0500, Bart Silverstrim wrote:

> Chris G wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 08:50:54AM -0500, Bart Silverstrim wrote:
> >> NoOp wrote:
> >>
> >>> For others that advocate DHCP on a small local network:
> >>>
> >>> The advantages of static IP's in a small local network are even more
> >>> evident when you use VPN's, VNC, or a central printer - particularly if
> >>> you use IPP to connect to the printer.
> >> I don't suppose the network-manager bugs have been fixed yet, have they?
> >> On my machine after upgrading to 8.10 I could no longer use a static IP!
> >>
> >> THAT is a PITA!
> >>
> > It worked for me, I think I had to 'persuade' network-manager a bit
> > but it made it in the end.
>
> How did you "persuade" it? Dangle a magnet in front of the CPU and smile
> mischievously?
>
I think I ran it a different way, you can get to it from the network
icon on the control bar *and* from the menus.  I found that one worked
OK for me.

--
Chris Green

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