my little rant...

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my little rant...

Xen
Just a little rant here.


Why have the KDE people still not managed to link the audio applet to
the audio settings?

Why does KDE come without any keybindings for the Win key?

Why is there no good keyboard with "dead keys" that will make sense?

- the standard one will "eat" all 'n and 's presses, not outputting
anything
- the alternative one will create ń and ś
- why is there not just one that will do é but leave 'n alone, so you
can actually type don't?

I mean wtf, this makes changing from Linux to some other OS very
difficult.

Or vice versa, I mean.

Why do they manage to create applets like the audio applet but if you
click around in it for like 20 seconds, it actually crashes?

Do they ever actually fucking finish what they start? Pardon me there.

How the &*#$ can they manage to create the simplest of user interfaces
and it CRASHES WHEN YOU CLICK AROUND

LibreOffice still crashes in Linux. It never crashes on me in Windows.

How come no one managed in KDE to make a "search as you type" dialog
that actually REGISTERS THE ENTER KEY WHEN YOU PRESS IT

Why does the KDE file save dialog NOT FOCUS THE FILENAME FIELD SO YOU
CAN START TYPING

Why does the KDE file save dialog BUG OUT WHEN YOU TYPE "Documents" to
open the Documents folder, complaining that the file already exists?

Why do other KDE dialogs also focus anything other than the actual
filename field?

How come KDE/Dolphin Samba features often fail to mount the shares?

Why is the "Add Network Share" button a desktop file that the Dolphin
will try to OPEN AS A TEXT FILE INSTEAD OF EXECUTING IT?

I mean I think I can go on for a while.

After plasma 5 was introduced, way too early, in 15.04, 16.04 is a year
after that and this is 16.04.3, not sure if that makes any difference,
but it is so incredibly unfinished.

And most of these things require only the slightest bit of attention.

If you are that programmer that's already doing it.

Just a little bit of attention to detail.

But they don't do it.

Probably running off to the next big thing.



And then you try to start a Python GTK3 tutorial.



$ python test.py
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "test.py", line 2, in <module>
     gi.require_version('Gtk', '3.0')
   File "/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/gi/__init__.py", line 102, in
require_version
     raise ValueError('Namespace %s not available' % namespace)
ValueError: Namespace Gtk not available


Wut?


Can they not provide a useful error message?

Can they not make it easy to start?

Why does the very first step have to get frustrated?

I thought GTK3 and Python were installed on every system.

And then, why does one have to hunt other tutorials on the web to find
out that the package you are missing




is actually the obscure little package called:

           gir1.2-gtk-3.0

What?



Description: GTK+ graphical user interface library -- gir bindings
  GTK+ is a multi-platform toolkit for creating graphical user
  interfaces. Offering a complete set of widgets, GTK+ is suitable
  for projects ranging from small one-off tools to complete application
  suites.
  .
  This package can be used by other packages using the GIRepository
format to
  generate dynamic bindings.



Where does that say Python? How the fuck am I supposed to find out?


Can't they make ANYTHING easy?

Yes, only Kubuntu doesn't install it, I get it.

I should have installed gedit before...

But all the same, I would never have known.


But there is NO python package that lists "gtk".

There is NO python metapackage that lists gtk.

There is no *gobject* package that lists gtk.

There is just no way to find out.

Except discover a PyGObject tutorial online.



Everything always frustrated...

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Re: my little rant...

Karl Auer
On Fri, 2017-11-10 at 10:12 +0100, Xen wrote:
> Just a little rant here.

It was a good rant. Very ranty.

> LibreOffice still crashes in Linux. It never crashes on me in
> Windows.

LibreOffice has not crashed on me in Linux for years. I don't know how
many, but more than five. Maybe the crashing is a KDE problem? Run up a
non-KDE virtual in seamless mode and run LibreOffice in that...

> I mean I think I can go on for a while.

You mentioned KDE in almost every line. Bit of a pointer, that...

> But there is NO python package that lists "gtk".

Are you sure?

~$ apt-cache search python | grep -i gtk | wc -l
61

> There is no *gobject* package that lists gtk.

~$ apt-cache search gobject | grep -i gtk | wc -l
33

I suggest a nice cup of tea and good lie-down.

Regards, K.

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Re: my little rant...

Nino Novak
In reply to this post by Xen
Am 10.11.2017 um 10:12 schrieb Xen:
> Just a little rant here [...]

+1

Though I love GNU/Linux (or better, _because_ I love it) I feel so
frustrated when having to invest hours to find out how some simple thing
works.

And, BTW I also feel frustrated seeing this strange "progress" from kde3
to kde4, plasma, whatever you look at...

It might be a progress when looking the abstraction level, but at every
progress level the maturity of the whole system seems to decrease. So we
buy a better abstraction and pay with less efficiency/usability. The
better it gets the worse it performs. _F_r_u_s_t_r_a_t_i_n_g_!!!

Is there a systemic/social "setting", paramter, paradigm or somesuch,
that could help creating a better user experience? My own suggestion
would be to unify all the FLOSS activities, so that instead of
increasing diversification we get more confluence/integration/cooperation.









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Re: my little rant...

Xen
In reply to this post by Karl Auer
Karl Auer schreef op 10-11-2017 11:11:

> LibreOffice has not crashed on me in Linux for years. I don't know how
> many, but more than five. Maybe the crashing is a KDE problem? Run up a
> non-KDE virtual in seamless mode and run LibreOffice in that...

Could be. Doesn't happen every day. Don't know how to reproduce it yet.
May have had something to do with image resizing/moving.



>> I mean I think I can go on for a while.
>
> You mentioned KDE in almost every line. Bit of a pointer, that...

People have the same amount of issues with Gnome 3.

I guess not so much with Mate, which seems very popular.

Cinnamon has its own awkwardness and feels too enclosed for me.

It has less of the issues I mentioned, yes.

Mint also has a rather controlled, closed community where it is ehm....
extremely easy to get banned from e.g. their forum.

There are no mailing lists, and all contact is required to be done
through IRC, where the main developer apparently lists a slew of "how to
not get on our bad side" requirements.

The Mate community however seems more open.

But Mint itself is like a hidden enclave where you have to enter IRC and
leave a computer running for 6 hours to *hopefully* be considered worthy
enough for a response.




Sure we have Unity but that won't be for long.

More people have problems with Gnome 3, than don't have problems, I
think.



> Are you sure?
>
> ~$ apt-cache search python | grep -i gtk | wc -l
> 61

Erm.

I could have been bitten by the shell expansion thingy again.

But in this case it wouldn't have helped, there is no meta package for
gtk3 and the required package was not listed.

>> There is no *gobject* package that lists gtk.
>
> ~$ apt-cache search gobject | grep -i gtk | wc -l
> 33

Also not listed here.

And no python-gtk3 package.

There is a python-gtk2 package.




And I don't know how people do it, but the documentation for python
(gobjects) with gtk3 is abysmal. I can't find anything.

C documentation plenty.

But I can't find *anything*.

I need an editor with python bindings I think that can do a form of code
completion.


For instance, there are constants like GTK_SHADOW_IN.

I have no clue where they are located.

Gtk.GTK_SHADOW_IN doesn't work, Gtk.SHADOW_IN doesn't work, and so on.

The gobjects thing turns GTK3 into an object oriented thing, but...

There is no documentation on the objects :p.

Help me out again :p.

What editor can I use that will "code complete" python code?

Currently using Vim.

Kate is no option.

Eclipse is no option.

Emacs is no option.

Sublime is not really an option but it could.

jEdit could if it was not butt ugly.

Anything else?

Any application where I can do "ctrl-space" after the dot (object.) will
do.

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Re: my little rant...

Xen
In reply to this post by Nino Novak
Nino Novak schreef op 10-11-2017 11:28:
> Am 10.11.2017 um 10:12 schrieb Xen:
>> Just a little rant here [...]
>
> +1
>
> Though I love GNU/Linux (or better, _because_ I love it) I feel so
> frustrated when having to invest hours to find out how some simple
> thing
> works.

Indeed, if you didn't need it or want it, you would just walk away and
not be frustrated by it.


> And, BTW I also feel frustrated seeing this strange "progress" from
> kde3
> to kde4, plasma, whatever you look at...
>
> It might be a progress when looking the abstraction level, but at every
> progress level the maturity of the whole system seems to decrease. So
> we
> buy a better abstraction and pay with less efficiency/usability. The
> better it gets the worse it performs. _F_r_u_s_t_r_a_t_i_n_g_!!!
>
> Is there a systemic/social "setting", paramter, paradigm or somesuch,
> that could help creating a better user experience? My own suggestion
> would be to unify all the FLOSS activities, so that instead of
> increasing diversification we get more
> confluence/integration/cooperation.

I think the problem is a sort of increase in nervosity.

It's not just here.

Windows 10 is much more nervous than Windows 7 which is more nervous
than Windows XP was.

I personally believe the high amount of radiation (wifi, cell) entices
the ... well, I think our bodies actually become more nervous.

I think our nervous system, becomes more nervous.

It seems most people in the entire world these days, particularly the
western world, are living hypertensed lives aggravated not only by
physical effects (radiation) but also by the design of the devices
themselves (twitter, whatsapp, instagram, facebook, notification after
notification).



Attention span has been reduced by the epitomic "180 character limit"
(or whatever it is)

which has led to "writing longhand letters" or any letters at all to
become a form of criminal offense.


People get really angry if they have to read more than 6 lines of text.


At the same time companies are moving away from "ownership" of software
to "rental" of software which is a more nervous thing because the moment
your money runs out, you lose everything.

A rapid release cycle of software is also nervous.

Ubuntu is focussing (or was focussing) on experimental things like
Snaps,

Windows is focussing on experimental things like Cortana and Edge
and other stuff people don't want.



Windows 10 tile interface is nonsensical and dysfunctional and the
biggest reason Windows Phone failed.

"Hybrid" devices was a bad idea to begin with, the convergence of
tablet/laptop or tablet/desktop was a bad idea to begin with.

Meanwhile the Ubuntu release cycle is extremely rapid.

I'm still on 16.04. I still want to use kernel 4.6.

It's not available, we're on 4.10 now and 4.13 coming on.

I wanted 4.6 because that was the first one that had nouveau for my
graphics card and I like to take baby steps, also with regards to any
patches I had written.

Etc.

Everything goes too fast for me, also because of exterior reasons.


Whenever a version of (K)ubuntu is released the devs don't even wait to
look at what they have done, they immediately rush on to the next thing.

People are somehow discontent and in a panic.

Thinking that the *next thing* will be the solution to their misery.

Their anxiety.

It's a runaway train, a rush to nowhere.

Thank you for your response.

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Re: my little rant...

Volker Wysk
In reply to this post by Xen
Am Freitag, 10. November 2017, 13:46:22 CET schrieb Xen:
> Kate is no option.
>
> Eclipse is no option.
>
> Emacs is no option.

Um, what about kdevelop? It has code completion for C++. It might also work with Python.

Bye
Volker


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Re: my little rant...

Volker Wysk
Am Freitag, 10. November 2017, 14:37:57 CET schrieb Volker Wysk:
> Am Freitag, 10. November 2017, 13:46:22 CET schrieb Xen:
> > Kate is no option.
> >
> > Eclipse is no option.
> >
> > Emacs is no option.
>
> Um, what about kdevelop? It has code completion for C++. It might also work with Python.

I mean: It might also be supported for Python.

Volker


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Re: my little rant...

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Xen
On 10 November 2017 at 14:03, Xen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think the problem is a sort of increase in nervosity.

Um. I don't know what that word means.

> It's not just here.
>
> Windows 10 is much more nervous than Windows 7 which is more nervous than
> Windows XP was.

OK, you are using "nervous" in a sense that I do not understand.

> I personally believe the high amount of radiation (wifi, cell) entices the
> ... well, I think our bodies actually become more nervous.

... what?

> I think our nervous system, becomes more nervous.

_WHAT?_

> Attention span has been reduced by the epitomic "180 character limit" (or
> whatever it is)

140. Because SMS was 160. Multipart SMS is 153, to leave room for code
to link them. Twitter reserved another 13 from that.

Now doubled to 280 anyway.


> At the same time companies are moving away from "ownership" of software to
> "rental" of software which is a more nervous thing because the moment your
> money runs out, you lose everything.
>
> A rapid release cycle of software is also nervous.
>
> Ubuntu is focussing (or was focussing) on experimental things like Snaps,
>
> Windows is focussing on experimental things like Cortana and Edge
> and other stuff people don't want.

You are talking about _symptoms_. It is necessary to look deeper and
think about what _causes_ these symptoms. Just discussing the surface
features gets you nowhere. It's not about what is happening, it's why
it's happening.

As usual, this comes back to Apple.

iOS came along nearly a decade after work on OS X started.

It is most instructive to look at what features came in what versions
of iOS and when.

iOS 2 was introduced with the 2nd gen iPhone, the iPhone 3G (2008),
and added the App Store. No apps before that: the functionality it
came with is all you ever got.

iOS 3 added cut/copy and paste.

All these were very important and well-nigh essential. You could
justifiably call the first release and the first update unfinished.

So, Apple pushed these updates out for free to all owners. _That_ is
the most important first thing to note here. That is the takeaway.
First, free updates; secondly, pushed out -- the device nags you until
you install it.

iOS 4 didn't add anything so radical, but it was the first version
that _required_ the 2nd gen iPhone, the iPhone 3G. The original
2G-only iPhone can only run up to iOS 3, and that had issues on the
first model.

So the 2nd iPhone is when the _hardware_ got serious.

The 3rd gen, the 3GS (2009) , got updates all the way to iOS 7, the
last really major change to iOS.

The iPad 1 shipped the year after the 3GS, with the  same amount of
RAM and the same iOS release, iOS 3.

So what you need to note from this is several things:

[1] A precedent for releasing products early, with incomplete
features. Both hardware and software.
[1a] Then, incrementally, successive versions are releases which
complete the feature set and make it more workable.

[2] What Apple learned from iOS: to encourage 3rd party development,
all your users need to be on the current version. You don't just need
to give them free updates, you need to _push_ these update with
constant nagging. So updates need to be regular and scheduled -- like
Ubuntu releases. And Ubuntu's 6-monthly release cycle was set because
GNOME originally released new versions every 6 months. Ubuntu adopted
the no-root-account and the ``sudo'' command from OS X. These things
feed into each other.

So, you can make _big_ tech shifts if you do 2 things:

* Release early, release often. This is from Eric Raymond's original
"the Cathedral and the Bazaar" paper which established the concept of
Open Source, as opposed to Stallman's Free Software.

* Get your users on board with a unfinished version that is missing
vital features. Keep them with free updates.

* This induces customers to run the latest available version. That
keeps your 3rd party vendor ecosystem happy -- they only need to
target the current release.

* Issuing all these free updates costs you money, of course. Lots of
testing, lots of work, no revenue from it.

* But, after a while, the new versions won't run on the previous-gen
hardware. But the customers feel happy -- they've had lots of free
updates and new features, so they are content, so they buy next-gen
hardware in order to get nice shiny new _hardware_ features that
software updates can't provide. Besides, the old device is a bit slow
now, and getting battered and its battery doesn't hold a full charge,
but they feel they got their money's worth.

That is where this model of continuous incremental development with
periodic generation refreshes comes from. Apple made it pay, but
Ubuntu and GNOME led the way with the software development model.
Ubuntu and GNOME, though, were efforts to bring Mac-like simplicity
(e.g. sudo) to the PC and Linux.

The App Store, and the way it made the mobile devices desirable, has
made hundreds of billions of dollars for Apple.

Microsoft wanted a piece of that.

So, like it did with Windows 1, 2, 3 and 95, it pioneered its own,
separate, different UI, not a copy of Apple's. It trialled it on the
Zune media player, then rolled it out across the line: Windows Phone,
Xbox 360, and Windows 8.

Not just the UI -- also, a new development model based on .NET and C#,
with apps with a funky new UI that worked very well on both phones and
tablets and also on games consoles, brought to Windows too. These apps
could only be sold through Microsoft's App Store. Because the new .NET
stuff brought advantages to developers, the App Store meant instant
distribution, no physical media or packaging, centralised updating,
and of course, money for Microsoft.

Only the phones bombed, because 3rd place isn't very profitable, and
desktop users hated the new UI which was pretty good on a touchscreen.
And traditional desktop apps weren't allowed on touchscreen devices,
and they couldn't be sold through the App Store.

Which was purely a licensing thing -- Windows RT came with MS Office,
a desktop version, showing that the hardware and the OS _could_ do it
just fine, but Microsoft didn't _allow_ you.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/14/microsoft_surface_rt_stockpile/

This pissed off the phone and tablet users _as well as_ the
already-pissed-off desktop users.

Result, misery, market failure.

Meanwhile, Apple goes, ooh look at that, Microsoft users aren't happy
and are abandoning it. But Mac users don't upgrade their OS. Once it
works, they stay there. Why Because 10.2, 10.3, 10.4, 10.5, 10.6,
10.7, all cost money. Less and less, but they cost.

So, OS X 10.8 is made free for all. And they switched to annual
updates, like iOS. And releases are pushed out with nagging, like iOS.

Because if most of your users are on the latest version, developers
like that, because they can target the cool new features and don't
need to support old versions. If upgrading is quick, easy, free, and
it doesn't break anything or need you to reload your data or reinstall
your apps, well, duh, more people do it.

So Apple now had both iOS and OS X on a regular, cyclical, periodic
free update cycle.

Like Ubuntu.

Meanwhile, over in Microsoft land...

So, shit shit shit, our phone users are pissed off, our desktop users
are pissed off. What do we do? OK, rush out an update for the desktop
with the Start Button and the option to boot to the desktop put back.
(Both were there in the betas, but removed.) Update the phones to the
NT kernel. Lots of perfectly good phones can't be upgraded, but screw
them. Offer new models, more compatible with the tablets, which ran
the NT kernel anyway. That's Windows Phone 8 and 8.1, Windows RT 8 and
8.1.

On the desktop, that was Windows 8.1. Free update, again, trying to
copy the Apple model.

Windows 7 is to Windows Vista as Windows 8.1 was to Windows 8.0, but
W7 cost money. 8.1 was free. Copying Apple, trying to win the users
back on side.

Didn't work of course.

So the phones and tablets bombed, and Steve Ballmer was out, Satya
Nadella took over, and a crowd-pleaser release, Windows 10, with a
kinda-sorta Start Menu put back. It doesn't work as nicely on tablets
and phones, but they killed those off. Microsoft climbed down,
retreated, abandoned the lucrative tablet/phone market, and tried to
win its users back... with a free update for everyone. Because the
only way to get developers to target Win10 is to try to get as many
users onto the latest version, like Apple did with the iPhone from day
1. Free regular OS releases, pushed out, like iOS.

So, here's Windows 10, it's free, please download it, please upgrade.
It's the last time we'll ask this, honest. After this, new releases
will happen automatically, like they do on the iPhone and iPad.

Phone and tablet users? Yeah, we don't do that any more. Sorry. Here's
an update. It's called 10 but it looks and works the same as 8.1. But
if you have a super-high-end phone, now you get Continuum -- plug in a
keyboard and mouse, your phone becomes your PC. Only it can't run
desktop apps and nobody likes Modern apps much.

The snag is, the phones were mainly successful in the low-end market,
because they were cheap and they did Facebook and simple games.

So, now, the phones are dead. The "tablets" are laptops with a
detachable keyboard. They run desktop Windows and desktop apps. The
ARM ones are dead, gone.

When you look at _how_ and _why_ things happened as they did, the
reasons why are clear. It's not random. It's not fashion. It's rival
businesses, some trying to execute successfully, others trying to copy
and failing.

> Windows 10 tile interface is nonsensical and dysfunctional and the biggest
> reason Windows Phone failed.

I've tried several. On touchscreens, it worked great.  More innovative
than iOS _or_ Android.

> "Hybrid" devices was a bad idea to begin with, the convergence of
> tablet/laptop or tablet/desktop was a bad idea to begin with.

I have bad news for you. They're selling well and owners love them.

> Meanwhile the Ubuntu release cycle is extremely rapid.

Same as it has been for 13 years, as set by the GNOME release cycle
with which it was synchronised.

Too fast? Use LTS.

> I'm still on 16.04. I still want to use kernel 4.6.

AFAIK, kernel updates are not mandatory.

> Everything goes too fast for me, also because of exterior reasons.

So use Debian, then.

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Re: my little rant...

Xen
Liam Proven schreef op 10-11-2017 21:38:

>> I personally believe the high amount of radiation (wifi, cell) entices
>> the
>> ... well, I think our bodies actually become more nervous.
>
> ... what?

That's a four letter word with a question mark.

I have seen those before. :).

>> I think our nervous system, becomes more nervous.
>
> _WHAT?_

That's the same word in capitals affixed and prefixed with _




>> Attention span has been reduced by the epitomic "180 character limit"
>> (or
>> whatever it is)
>
> 140.

Ah thanks. Well that saves the day.

> Now doubled to 280 anyway.

Ah well, thank God we are saved.


>> At the same time companies are moving away from "ownership" of
>> software to
>> "rental" of software which is a more nervous thing because the moment
>> your
>> money runs out, you lose everything.
>>
>> A rapid release cycle of software is also nervous.
>>
>> Ubuntu is focussing (or was focussing) on experimental things like
>> Snaps,
>>
>> Windows is focussing on experimental things like Cortana and Edge
>> and other stuff people don't want.
>
> You are talking about _symptoms_. It is necessary to look deeper and
> think about what _causes_ these symptoms.

Liam, the problem with you is that you think you know too much.







No one is even discussing these symptoms.


What good does it do to dive into causes when the symptoms haven't been
named yet?

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Re: my little rant...

Karl Auer
In reply to this post by Xen
On Fri, 2017-11-10 at 13:46 +0100, Xen wrote:
> > You mentioned KDE in almost every line. Bit of a pointer, that...
> People have the same amount of issues with Gnome 3.

Dunno about Gnome3. I'm still with Unity on 16.04, but before that it
was Gnome2, and very few problems. Actually liked it more than Unity.

> Eclipse is no option.

Why? I code python in Eclipse, it's not bad. Way better than just the
command line, anyway.

Regards, K.

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Re: my little rant...

Colin Watson
In reply to this post by Xen
On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 02:03:18PM +0100, Xen wrote:
> I'm still on 16.04. I still want to use kernel 4.6.
>
> It's not available, we're on 4.10 now and 4.13 coming on.

Each kernel version we offer has to receive security support.  We have
teams of people doing this, and it takes real time, energy, and money,
all of which are limited resources.  It simply isn't viable to support
more than a small number of kernel versions at a time on any given
release.

> Whenever a version of (K)ubuntu is released the devs don't even wait to look
> at what they have done, they immediately rush on to the next thing.

It's always going to be the case that some bugs remain unfixed and users
are unsatisfied, pretty much no matter what, and I don't necessarily
think that our post-release support has always been everything it could
be either.  But really quite a lot of time and effort goes into issuing
updates to Ubuntu stable releases.

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Re: my little rant...

Xen
In reply to this post by Karl Auer
Karl Auer schreef op 10-11-2017 22:37:

> On Fri, 2017-11-10 at 13:46 +0100, Xen wrote:
>> > You mentioned KDE in almost every line. Bit of a pointer, that...
>> People have the same amount of issues with Gnome 3.
>
> Dunno about Gnome3. I'm still with Unity on 16.04, but before that it
> was Gnome2, and very few problems. Actually liked it more than Unity.
>
>> Eclipse is no option.
>
> Why? I code python in Eclipse, it's not bad. Way better than just the
> command line, anyway.

I think it's too heavy and too difficult.

Never much liked it, don't know why.

Couldn't get into it.

Also I'm on a limited connection and I'm not gonna download 220Meg right
now ;-).

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Re: my little rant...

Karl Auer
On Sat, 2017-11-11 at 06:59 +0100, Xen wrote:
> Eclipse is no option.
> > Why? I code python in Eclipse, it's not bad. Way better than just
> > the command line, anyway.
> I think it's too heavy and too difficult.
> Never much liked it, don't know why.
> Couldn't get into it.
> Also I'm on a limited connection and I'm not gonna download 220Meg
> right now ;-).

That's fine - but one is your opinion and one has nothing to do with
Eclipse. Maybe avoid phrases like "no option" when you have nothing
substantive against something, they are very misleading. You made it
sound as if Eclipse cannot do the job, when in fact you just don't like
it.

Regards, K.

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Re: my little rant...

Xen
In reply to this post by Colin Watson
Colin Watson schreef op 11-11-2017 0:18:

> On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 02:03:18PM +0100, Xen wrote:
>> I'm still on 16.04. I still want to use kernel 4.6.
>>
>> It's not available, we're on 4.10 now and 4.13 coming on.
>
> Each kernel version we offer has to receive security support.  We have
> teams of people doing this, and it takes real time, energy, and money,
> all of which are limited resources.  It simply isn't viable to support
> more than a small number of kernel versions at a time on any given
> release.

I was going to compile it myself but just couldn't get around to it, my
mistake I guess.

Also I don't know how feasible it is to do that with today's
infrastructure.

But for my own feeling I still need to complete that step; I have
skipped a step as it were ;-).

But you know, this is not directed at the kernel.

And I appreciate your efforts. I have seen the huge amount of commits
passing through the ubuntu kernel mailing list.

I also know... I mean.

Never mind that.

The point in general I would like to make at some point is that I wish
that some developers, not necessarily you or Ubuntu's, would also take
into consideration the real time, energy and money their lack of effort
to make something completed, costs their users.

I know in general Ubuntu has put a huge amount of effort into finishing
and polishing Unity, and Unity is not KDE.

But I also feel the Kernel itself is rushing ahead too fast.

Not just for me. In general.

Ubuntu now introduced...

well whatever right.

You can keep changing infrastructure down the hood not in terms of UI
but the basic system...

sponsored by some efforts by some other linux supplier...

I just think we are still in a rush to nowhere.

All of the stuff that has been changed and that is continued to be
pushed.

Is not done.

Will take years to complete it and people will at some point have to
stop what they're doing and revisit what they haven't...

What still needs to be made right.

They will have to stop the push, and go back to basically what is
currently 16.04(.0)

And look at what isn't right and I'm talking systemd mostly.


Not trying to sound ungrateful here for people doing work.

But sometimes 60% of that work is due to _doing too much_ of the wrong
stuff.

If you put less hay on your fork, you also have less work to do about it
you know.

And I think that in general the lack of resources in Linux comes down to
creating too big a burden for yourself.




>> Whenever a version of (K)ubuntu is released the devs don't even wait
>> to look
>> at what they have done, they immediately rush on to the next thing.
>
> It's always going to be the case that some bugs remain unfixed and
> users
> are unsatisfied, pretty much no matter what, and I don't necessarily
> think that our post-release support has always been everything it could
> be either.  But really quite a lot of time and effort goes into issuing
> updates to Ubuntu stable releases.

The point is more that you have to stop to consider what you've done
before you rush on, or you can never know whether what you are going to
do next is going to be the right thing.

I'm sorry for sounding ungrateful but I'm also quite sure 90% of those
updates are security fixes and nothing structural or perhaps I wanted to
say tangential, of course it couldn't, but I'm just talking about
reflection.

I haven't been following any Ubuntu newsletter myself and the Ubuntu
Weekly is hard to read, or I could say hardly readable because it is
full of links, just full of links and no proze.

However the Fridge at
http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2017/10/04/ubuntu-weekly-newsletter-issue-520/ 
is an accessible resource.



Regardless it always appears to me that the focus is purely with
enterprise and Ubuntu's main focal point is containers. I'm not saying
that's a bad thing. I'm saying it's apparently a niche that was well
received and in which Ubuntu has been able to specialize.

What results is a framework for automation that ordinary users can't
access.

I'm just a home user at present. I dabble with containers, but limited,
and only LXC.

In a world where people never solved the basic linker problem (often
having fixed library link paths if you compile something) we now have
containers that solved the problem entirely but are useless for the
ordinary person.

So while for the enterprise many things are solved, ordinary, old,
"regular" Linux systems are left behind.

There is a frenzy to automate deployment of workloads but...

The basics in the old, regular Linux system haven't even been covered
yet.

I can't just take an application and put it on USB stick.

That simple use case is not covered.

I can't take anything out of the FHS and just transplant it into its own
"container".

So where are the basics?

Suppose there was a world where every other person had a Linux system or
a system capable of running Linux applications.


Suppose there was a modicum standard way of running GUI applications,
such as when Windows would have native (XMing) support, or perhaps
better, if it was Wayland(?)




Suppose every Windows PC, or every Linux PC for that matter, could run a
form of containerized application the way Snaps were really
envisioned.... but without anything special like Snaps?

(Which is a huge misnomer to begin with but anyway)

How am I going to take an ordinary package.

Wrap it up including its dependencies.

Define if we must a necessary Core as you have done.

But in general just take an existing package, source all dependencies,
and put them into either one container format or one hierarchy tree
(which would at this point basically be the same thing)

Put them on USB stick.

And I can run them on another computer?

Not much different from Java jars.

But it doesn't exist, does it.

In Windows I can download PortableApps and I'm done.

I can put it on an encrypted USB stick and I'm done.

Mobility achieved.



Rolling releases is not a very good idea but anyway. I think it causes
library dependency creep.

You can't really put structural changes to a system in a rolling release
anyway, can you?

So where is the basic functionality for users that Windows people have
had for decades, basically?

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Re: my little rant...

Ralf Mardorf-2
On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 08:05:56 +0100, Xen wrote:
>But I also feel the Kernel itself is rushing ahead too fast.

Upstream https://www.kernel.org/ currently supports:
longterm: 4.9.61
longterm: 4.4.97
longterm: 4.1.46
longterm: 3.16.49
longterm: 3.2.94

Let alone that until a few month ago RHEL, so much likely the free as in beer CentOS as well still supported Linux 2.x.y.

"6.9, also termed Update 9, March 21, 2017; 7 months ago (kernel 2.6.32-696)" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux#RHEL_6

>Rolling releases is not a very good idea but anyway. I think it causes
>library dependency creep.

That depends on the purpose of the rolling release.

"Debian Unstable (also known by its codename "Sid") is not strictly a release, but rather a rolling development version" - https://wiki.debian.org/DebianUnstable

A rolling "development version" isn't the same as a rolling "release".

Arch Linux is a real rolling release and it doesn't suffer from soname issues. Arch Linux has got a testing repository and software gets pushed to the "regular" repositories after a process that ensures that there will be no soname and some other issues. It only requires that users never do partial upgrades and that they need to care about local build packages.

>You can't really put structural changes to a system in a rolling
>release anyway, can you?

Wrong, structural changes happen especially when using a rolling release. When using a rolling release it's wise to subscribe to an announcement list and/or to read the news on the homepage, since a structural change does force the user to step in, by running commands mentioned by the announcements and the homepage news.


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Re: my little rant...

Xen
In reply to this post by Karl Auer
Karl Auer schreef op 11-11-2017 8:03:

> On Sat, 2017-11-11 at 06:59 +0100, Xen wrote:
>> Eclipse is no option.
>> > Why? I code python in Eclipse, it's not bad. Way better than just
>> > the command line, anyway.
>> I think it's too heavy and too difficult.
>> Never much liked it, don't know why.
>> Couldn't get into it.
>> Also I'm on a limited connection and I'm not gonna download 220Meg
>> right now ;-).
>
> That's fine - but one is your opinion and one has nothing to do with
> Eclipse. Maybe avoid phrases like "no option" when you have nothing
> substantive against something, they are very misleading. You made it
> sound as if Eclipse cannot do the job, when in fact you just don't like
> it.

No, I said "no option" because it was no option for me.

If I was certain it couldn't do the job, I wouldn't have said "no
option".

Because I would not have mentioned it.

So I think you are being misleading on purpose: you don't want people to
know personal opinions (or preferences) that are not "objective" because
you fear it would look bad on the software.

Because clearly you are not arguing from the position of trying to help
an individual, but from the position of public image.

You are the misleading person, Karl.

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Re: my little rant...

Xen
In reply to this post by Ralf Mardorf-2
Ralf Mardorf schreef op 11-11-2017 10:18:
> On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 08:05:56 +0100, Xen wrote:
>> But I also feel the Kernel itself is rushing ahead too fast.
>
> Upstream https://www.kernel.org/ currently supports:
> longterm: 4.9.61
> longterm: 4.4.97
> longterm: 4.1.46
> longterm: 3.16.49
> longterm: 3.2.94

So?

> That depends on the purpose of the rolling release.
>
> "Debian Unstable (also known by its codename "Sid") is not strictly a
> release, but rather a rolling development version" -
> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianUnstable
>
> A rolling "development version" isn't the same as a rolling "release".

Then I didn't mention it.


> Arch Linux is a real rolling release and it doesn't suffer from soname
> issues. Arch Linux has got a testing repository and software gets
> pushed to the "regular" repositories after a process that ensures that
> there will be no soname and some other issues. It only requires that
> users never do partial upgrades and that they need to care about local
> build packages.

So then they are mini discrete releases, nothing continuous.

Also your use of "soname" is really annoying.

> Wrong, structural changes happen especially when using a rolling
> release.

No, they just happen more frequently. Or rather, you are turning this
"rolling release" into "more incremental steps" which is fundamentally
no different from "one big step" -- you are just changing the step size.

> When using a rolling release it's wise to subscribe to an
> announcement list and/or to read the news on the homepage, since a
> structural change does force the user to step in, by running commands
> mentioned by the announcements and the homepage news.

Well the whole point of what I wrote was about stability.

I can upgrade Debian 8 to Debian 9 too.



I just have to deal with the fact that:

- owncloud is gone
- dokuwiki is gone
- PHP is updated from 5 to 7, so if I want to keep above, I must upgrade
them manually
- PostgreSQL has a binary non-compatible database format upgrade that
requires running some rather difficult or at first non-intuitive
commands
- I also have to upgrade LXC to version 2, which is not the worst, but
still, requires time.


I guess that in a Arch model of mini releases I would have had time to
do this step by step.

Personally I don't like constantly having to maintain my system.

This constantly having to maintain is what I called "nervousness".

You can compare that to the Let's Encrypt digital certificates that for
no reason whatsoever, give no-name people monthly certificate renewal
that requires all infrastructure to keep working, otherwise you are
obviously "screwed".

And the only reason they do this is because the more people constantly
use their service, the more "popular" they are etc. etc.

There is almost no benefit and only detriment to this frequent
certificate renewal.

The unlikely event that someone hacks your server or device, then steals
your certificate and private key, then puts effort into using that
certificate against your users who now need to be subjected to a man in
the middle attack in order to be vulnerable to this.

Does not coincide with the target audience of users who are too cheap
(or too small) to acquire a commercial certificate.

But now you have something more to worry about: does the renewal keep
working?



This is what I call "nervousness".

Maybe there was good reason to maintain older kernels, I don't know.

I just think the pace had been picked up with regards to kernel 4.

Grek KH earlier commented that the pace was constantly increasing in
kernel development.

The growth is, in a certain sense, exponential.

The number of lines of code contributed keeps growing every month.

This is not, in a general sense, a very good thing.

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Re: my little rant...

Ralf Mardorf-2
On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 10:52:49 +0100, Xen wrote:
>Personally I don't like constantly having to maintain my system.

I not necessarily like spending time with going to the
toilet, teethbrushing, going off to work and cooking, let alone washing
clothes by hand in absence of a washing machine, but usually I need to
do this each day, some of it even several times a day. There's no
need to do one or another of those annoyances, but it might result in
more annoying consequences, if I would stop doing it. Maintaining a
Linux install close to changes from upstream on a daily basis prevents
from happening a lot of nasty surprises.


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Re: my little rant...

Ralf Mardorf-2
In reply to this post by Xen
Without doubts you don't understand what a rolling release is.

On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 10:52:49 +0100, Xen wrote:
>> Arch Linux is a real rolling release and it doesn't suffer from
>> soname issues. Arch Linux has got a testing repository and software
>> gets pushed to the "regular" repositories after a process that
>> ensures that there will be no soname and some other issues. It only
>> requires that users never do partial upgrades and that they need to
>> care about local build packages.  
>
>So then they are mini discrete releases, nothing continuous.

No, there is no freeze, it happens continuously, but
especially regarding...

>Also your use of "soname" is really annoying.

...soname issues, it's important to sync everything that depends on
another thing. What is annoying with pointing out a special thing you
need to consider for a rolling release? This process could happen within
an hour, excepted of some packages that require a few days, to ensure by
sign offs, that e.g. the upstream mainline kernel doesn't include
regressions. There needs to be a process to grant stability.

>> Wrong, structural changes happen especially when using a rolling
>> release.  
>
>No, they just happen more frequently. Or rather, you are turning this
>"rolling release" into "more incremental steps" which is fundamentally
>no different from "one big step" -- you are just changing the step
>size.

No, there are no _such_ steps at all, excepted that everything that
depends on another thing, needs to be upgraded at the same time. A
release model distro could be upgraded from one to another release with
handling structural changes automatically, a rolling release distro
sometimes needs user intervention.

When I installed an Ubuntu rc I had to step in, too. Systemd was split
into another individual package, so I lost some functionality, resp. I
needed to find out what happened and needed to install the new package
manually. This isn't required when doing a release upgrade or withina
regular release and you usually don't need to fear soname issues and
similar things for local build packages, within a release cycle.

>> When using a rolling release it's wise to subscribe to an
>> announcement list and/or to read the news on the homepage, since a
>> structural change does force the user to step in, by running commands
>> mentioned by the announcements and the homepage news.  
>
>Well the whole point of what I wrote was about stability.

If you customize a rolling release you sometimes need to organize the
new structure, e.g. regarding local build packages, for example
https://www.archlinux.org/news/perl-library-path-change/ or
https://www.archlinux.org/news/binaries-move-to-usrbin-requiring-update-intervention/ .


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Re: my little rant...

Xen
In reply to this post by Ralf Mardorf-2
Ralf Mardorf schreef op 11-11-2017 11:13:

> On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 10:52:49 +0100, Xen wrote:
>> Personally I don't like constantly having to maintain my system.
>
> I not necessarily like spending time with going to the
> toilet, teethbrushing, going off to work and cooking, let alone washing
> clothes by hand in absence of a washing machine, but usually I need to
> do this each day, some of it even several times a day. There's no
> need to do one or another of those annoyances, but it might result in
> more annoying consequences, if I would stop doing it. Maintaining a
> Linux install close to changes from upstream on a daily basis prevents
> from happening a lot of nasty surprises.

Well I would advize you to break any other electrical appliances you
have in your house so you will have to do more by hand.

Since you are so fond of manual repetitive labour.

Maybe recompile all packages from scratch every month too.

Who knows what kind of bit rot could have occurred in the meantime.

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