non-Unity flavours and Mir

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non-Unity flavours and Mir

Jonathan Riddell
Dear flavour people, the switch to Mir in Ubuntu seems pretty risky for the existance of Kubuntu, I wonder if other flavours have the same probable problem.  Is it worth having a vUDS session about it?  Or if that's too late a discussion over e-mail?


Jonathan


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Re: non-Unity flavours and Mir

Mario Limonciello-2
At least for Mythbuntu we haven't evaluated it yet.  We are hoping to as soon as NVIDIA and AMD provide drivers.  A majority of our users use NVIDIA.


On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 11:02 AM, Jonathan Riddell <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear flavour people, the switch to Mir in Ubuntu seems pretty risky for the existance of Kubuntu, I wonder if other flavours have the same probable problem.  Is it worth having a vUDS session about it?  Or if that's too late a discussion over e-mail?


Jonathan




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Re: non-Unity flavours and Mir

Giacomo Picchiarelli-2
In reply to this post by Jonathan Riddell

Why it is risky? I mean, we could use XOrg nonetheless.

On 15/05/2013 18:02, Jonathan Riddell wrote:

> Dear flavour people, the switch to Mir in Ubuntu seems pretty risky
> for the existance of Kubuntu, I wonder if other flavours have the same
> probable problem.  Is it worth having a vUDS session about it?  Or if
> that's too late a discussion over e-mail?
>
> KWin dev has opinions on the
> subject http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/05/mir-in-kubuntu/
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>


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Re: non-Unity flavours and Mir

Jonathan Riddell
In reply to this post by Mario Limonciello-2
On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 11:06:11AM -0500, Mario Limonciello wrote:
>    At least for Mythbuntu we haven't evaluated it yet.  We are hoping to as
>    soon as NVIDIA and AMD provide drivers.  A majority of our users use
>    NVIDIA.

Hoping to what?

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Re: non-Unity flavours and Mir

Mario Limonciello-2
Hoping to evaluate it with our software stack to see whether it's viable.


On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Jonathan Riddell <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 11:06:11AM -0500, Mario Limonciello wrote:
>    At least for Mythbuntu we haven't evaluated it yet.  We are hoping to as
>    soon as NVIDIA and AMD provide drivers.  A majority of our users use
>    NVIDIA.

Hoping to what?

Jonathan



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Re: [kubuntu-devel] Re: non-Unity flavours and Mir

Jonathan Riddell
In reply to this post by Giacomo Picchiarelli-2
On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 06:07:51PM +0200, Giacomo Picchiarelli wrote:
>
> Why it is risky? I mean, we could use XOrg nonetheless.

Our upstream is switching to Wayland.

Canonical will likely do even more heavy patching of Mesa than it already does further disrupting out ability to use a non-Unity compositor such as KWin.

Jonathan

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Re: non-Unity flavours and Mir

Jonathan Riddell
In reply to this post by Mario Limonciello-2
On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 11:09:41AM -0500, Mario Limonciello wrote:
>    Hoping to evaluate it with our software stack to see whether it's viable.

forgive my ignorance but what is your software stack?  which window manager and compositor do you use?

Jonathan

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Re: non-Unity flavours and Mir

Julien Lavergne-3
In reply to this post by Jonathan Riddell
2013/5/15 Jonathan Riddell <[hidden email]>:
> Dear flavour people, the switch to Mir in Ubuntu seems pretty risky for the
> existance of Kubuntu, I wonder if other flavours have the same probable
> problem.  Is it worth having a vUDS session about it?  Or if that's too late
> a discussion over e-mail?
>
> KWin dev has opinions on the subject
> http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/05/mir-in-kubuntu/

No evaluation so far for Lubuntu. We hope to be able to use X and GTK
2 at least for 14.04 (we are using openbox for the window manager).
The main point for us is the level of maintenance that the X stack
will have for 14.04.
After 14.04, no clear direction so far.

Regards,
Julien Lavergne

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Re: non-Unity flavours and Mir

Jeremy Bicha-2
In reply to this post by Jonathan Riddell


On May 15, 2013 12:02 PM, "Jonathan Riddell" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Dear flavour people, the switch to Mir in Ubuntu seems pretty risky for the existance of Kubuntu, I wonder if other flavours have the same probable problem.  Is it worth having a vUDS session about it?  Or if that's too late a discussion over e-mail?
>
> KWin dev has opinions on the subject http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/05/mir-in-kubuntu/
>
> Jonathan

Perhaps this email should have been sent to the ubuntu-release list (if you wanted to reach all the flavor devs) or even ubuntu-devel to reach all interested developers.

Isn't the worst that could happen is that a user would need to reboot to run a non-Unity session? But I'd hope that LightDM would support Wayland too as I believe KDE and GNOME will be moving to it by default next year.

And the flavor community may need to depend on Debian instead of Canonical to maintain X and Wayland?

Jeremy


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Re: non-Unity flavours and Mir

Jonathan Riddell
On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 10:23:34AM -0600, Jeremy Bicha wrote:
>    Isn't the worst that could happen is that a user would need to reboot to
>    run a non-Unity session? But I'd hope that LightDM would support Wayland
>    too as I believe KDE and GNOME will be moving to it by default next year.

needing to kill and start a new graphics server is a new requirement
and quite a user-unfriendly one, it would need thinking how to make it
as elegant as possible.

Canonical was going to port LightDM to Wayland but now does not plan
to so someone else would have to do this.  KDE might be interesting
but more likely will switch to SDDM, another inelegant difference in
switching from one desktop environement another.

>    And the flavor community may need to depend on Debian instead of Canonical
>    to maintain X and Wayland?

Yes but Canonical already patches mesa and X to suit Unity making bugs
appear in at least KWin exclusively on Kubuntu, this is likely to
increase.  What if Debian is frozen?

Feel free to take this to ubuntu-devel, I was thinking a vUDS session
would be a good way to start the discussion but probably I was too late for that.

Jonathan

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Re: non-Unity flavours and Mir

Jeremy Bicha-2

On May 15, 2013 12:29 PM, "Jonathan Riddell" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> needing to kill and start a new graphics server is a new requirement
> and quite a user-unfriendly one, it would need thinking how to make it
> as elegant as possible.

Yes but that's the worst-case. Ideally LightDM would be the one display manager that supports *everything*. I mean already GNOME doesn't work as well without GDM but that's not really Canonical's fault.

> >    And the flavor community may need to depend on Debian instead of Canonical
> >    to maintain X and Wayland?
>
> Yes but Canonical already patches mesa and X to suit Unity making bugs
> appear in at least KWin exclusively on Kubuntu, this is likely to
> increase.  What if Debian is frozen?

Maybe less patching of X would be needed? Of course past experience tells us that Qt patching will increase as Ubuntu uses it more.

> Feel free to take this to ubuntu-devel, I was thinking a vUDS session
> would be a good way to start the discussion but probably I was too late for that.

Sorry I don't have the time now to champion this discussion.

Thanks
Jeremy


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Re: non-Unity flavours and Mir

Jussi Schultink-2



On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 7:39 PM, Jeremy Bicha <[hidden email]> wrote:

On May 15, 2013 12:29 PM, "Jonathan Riddell" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> needing to kill and start a new graphics server is a new requirement
> and quite a user-unfriendly one, it would need thinking how to make it
> as elegant as possible.

Yes but that's the worst-case. Ideally LightDM would be the one display manager that supports *everything*. I mean already GNOME doesn't work as well without GDM but that's not really Canonical's fault.

> >    And the flavor community may need to depend on Debian instead of Canonical
> >    to maintain X and Wayland?
>
> Yes but Canonical already patches mesa and X to suit Unity making bugs
> appear in at least KWin exclusively on Kubuntu, this is likely to
> increase.  What if Debian is frozen?

Maybe less patching of X would be needed? Of course past experience tells us that Qt patching will increase as Ubuntu uses it more.


Are the patches such that we can pick and choose to maintain Mesa-kubuntu or Mesa-basic or so? My understanding was that if the patches aren't upstreamable, then they are kept in a branch so can't we just cherry pick what we like? (yes, spoken by a true non-dev...) 

> Feel free to take this to ubuntu-devel, I was thinking a vUDS session
> would be a good way to start the discussion but probably I was too late for that.

Sorry I don't have the time now to champion this discussion.

Thanks
Jeremy


Overall, I'd like to see this talked about at vUDS, even though I'm travelling and likely will have little input myself. 

Jussi 


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