(not) one browser for all - Was: Software repository failure

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(not) one browser for all - Was: Software repository failure

ubuntu-users mailing list
On Tue, 2019-07-16 at 14:20 +0200, Liam Proven wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 at 10:33, Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I'm using several browsers and dislike all of them. Actually, while
> > browser A might do one job correct, it might be needed to switch to
> > browser B, to get another job well done, while the user might stay at
> > just one website.
>
> Agreed.
>
> I use 2, side by side. Chrome for "Web 2" type stuff. I normally leave
> Gmail open in it all day, and occasionally open Google Calendar or
> Contacts or Keep or Docs. It's also better for videoconferencing
> stuff.
>
> This applies in Linux, on macOS and on Windows.
>
> And Waterfox for everything else, which replace Firefox after Firefox
> Quantum, when 17/20 of my addons stopped working.
>
> Many months later, now, I can sort of configure Firefox Quantum to
> look vaguely like I want, with a vertical tab bar (only) and some core
> extensions, but it's a poor shadow of what Firefox used to be able to
> do. So I don't use it any more. I switched to Waterfox.
>
> I've tried Vivaldi and modern Opera and they're OK, but not good
> enough to lure me away from the 2-browser system I quite like.

I'm using more or less 3 browsers on Linux. Falkon (formerly QupZilla),
Firefox and Chrome. Several other were or are still installed, too, but
I only will mention some of them, Opera and Vivaldi and the Firefox
"forks" Pale Moon, IceCat and TorBrowser. On iOS I'm mainly using
Firefox and Safari. On the newer iOS device just Opera is installed, too
and on the older device Opera and Mercury are installed, too and a lot
of other browsers were installed on the old device.

On Tue, 2019-07-16 at 08:01 -0400, Little Girl wrote:
> Hey there,
>
> I thought I'd take this off-list since it's a new topic.

By accident you sent it to the mailing list.
 

> > I'm using several browsers and dislike all of them. Actually, while
> > browser A might do one job correct, it might be needed to switch to
> > browser B, to get another job well done, while the user might stay at
> > just one website.
>
> Just curious, but have you tried the Vivaldi browser? I don't know if
> it handles the history the way you like to because I have it clear my
> history every time I close it, leaving me no history to search, but
> it's worth a try.
>
> They're a rather interesting team with a surprisingly configurable
> browser. My only reason for not using it exclusively is that it's not
> open source.

I liked the old Opera, not the new one and I also don't like Vivaldi
that much.

Vivaldi "stable" is always up to date on my machine, since around 4
years now and there always is an issue.

[rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ grep vivaldi /var/log/pacman.log | grep -e \(1.0.219.50-2 -e \(2.6.1566.40-1
[2015-11-05 19:16] [ALPM] upgraded vivaldi (1.0.219.50-2 -> 1.0.303.52-1)
[2019-06-25 13:24] [ALPM] upgraded vivaldi (2.6.1566.40-1 -> 2.6.1566.44-1)
[rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ vivaldi-stable 2>&1 | grep ERROR
[1951:1951:0716/143848.368967:ERROR:sandbox_linux.cc(368)] InitializeSandbox() called with multiple threads in process gpu-process.
[1919:2005:0716/143848.454730:ERROR:object_proxy.cc(619)] Failed to call method: org.freedesktop.Notifications.GetCapabilities: object_path= /org/freedesktop/Notifications: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.freedesktop.Notifications was not provided by any .service files
[1951:1951:0716/143848.630872:ERROR:buffer_manager.cc(488)] [.DisplayCompositor]GL ERROR :GL_INVALID_OPERATION : glBufferData: <- error from previous GL command
[1919:1919:0716/143848.924735:ERROR:CONSOLE(0)] "[object Event]", source:  (0)
[1919:1919:0716/143849.889616:ERROR:CONSOLE(0)] "Unchecked runtime.lastError: The message port closed before a response was received.", source: chrome-extension://mpognobbkildjkofajifpdfhcoklimli/browser.html (0)
[1919:1935:0716/143854.793373:ERROR:browser_process_sub_thread.cc(221)] Waited 18 ms for network service

It's possible to use Vivaldi, but a sandbox error isn't confidence-
inspiring.

One of the browsers I never installed is Brave, it does block ads, just
to replace them with different ads.



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Re: (not) one browser for all - Was: Software repository failure

Liam Proven
On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 at 15:24, Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm using more or less 3 browsers on Linux. Falkon (formerly QupZilla),
> Firefox and Chrome. Several other were or are still installed, too, but
> I only will mention some of them, Opera and Vivaldi and the Firefox
> "forks" Pale Moon, IceCat and TorBrowser.

OK.

As I am happy with Chrome for some stuff, I have not investigated any
other Webkit/Blink browsers, including QupZilla.

I have evaluated PaleMoon but I saw no appeal. It uses some quite
outdated Firefox components, whereas Waterfox is based on the latest
pre-Quantum Firefox and the maintainer ports all security fixes. It is
as focused on performance as Firefox, which I like, whereas Palemoon
uses only a single process by design. I have 8 cores so I am happy for
my browser to use several.

IceCat was just a rebranding, plus some extra, small privacy
enhancements. Waterfox includes the latter, I believe. I did not see
the point, and as I understand it, Mozilla has now changed its
trademark policies so Debian can use it again, so there isn't really
any reason for IceCat to exist any more.

I have Safari on macOS and IE/Edge on Windows but don't use either.

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Re: (not) one browser for all

Little Girl
In reply to this post by ubuntu-users mailing list
Hey there,

Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users wrote:
>On Tue, 2019-07-16 at 08:01 -0400, Little Girl wrote:

>> I thought I'd take this off-list since it's a new topic.  
>
>By accident you sent it to the mailing list.

Whoops. That will teach me to properly read the reply address.

>> Just curious, but have you tried the Vivaldi browser? I don't know
>> if it handles the history the way you like to because I have it
>> clear my history every time I close it, leaving me no history to
>> search, but it's worth a try.
>>
>> They're a rather interesting team with a surprisingly configurable
>> browser. My only reason for not using it exclusively is that it's
>> not open source.  
>
>I liked the old Opera, not the new one and I also don't like Vivaldi
>that much.

Okay. I figured it was worth a mention in case you hadn't tried it.

>Vivaldi "stable" is always up to date on my machine, since around 4
>years now and there always is an issue.

I haven't had it for quite as long and haven't done any tests on it.
I do like some of its features, though, and wouldn't mind seeing them
in other browsers.

>[rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ grep vivaldi /var/log/pacman.log | grep
>-e \(1.0.219.50-2 -e \(2.6.1566.40-1 [2015-11-05 19:16] [ALPM]
>upgraded vivaldi (1.0.219.50-2 -> 1.0.303.52-1) [2019-06-25 13:24]
>[ALPM] upgraded vivaldi (2.6.1566.40-1 -> 2.6.1566.44-1)
>[rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ vivaldi-stable 2>&1 | grep ERROR
>[1951:1951:0716/143848.368967:ERROR:sandbox_linux.cc(368)]
>InitializeSandbox() called with multiple threads in process
>gpu-process.
>[1919:2005:0716/143848.454730:ERROR:object_proxy.cc(619)] Failed to
>call method: org.freedesktop.Notifications.GetCapabilities:
>object_path= /org/freedesktop/Notifications:
>org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name
>org.freedesktop.Notifications was not provided by any .service files
>[1951:1951:0716/143848.630872:ERROR:buffer_manager.cc(488)]
>[.DisplayCompositor]GL ERROR :GL_INVALID_OPERATION : glBufferData:
><- error from previous GL command
>[1919:1919:0716/143848.924735:ERROR:CONSOLE(0)] "[object Event]",
>source:  (0) [1919:1919:0716/143849.889616:ERROR:CONSOLE(0)]
>"Unchecked runtime.lastError: The message port closed before a
>response was received.", source:
>chrome-extension://mpognobbkildjkofajifpdfhcoklimli/browser.html (0)
>[1919:1935:0716/143854.793373:ERROR:browser_process_sub_thread.cc(221)]
>Waited 18 ms for network service
>
>It's possible to use Vivaldi, but a sandbox error isn't confidence-
>inspiring.

You're right. Mine throws an error on launch, too. I'll keep an eye on
it from now on to see if they sort that out.

>One of the browsers I never installed is Brave, it does block ads,
>just to replace them with different ads.

I hadn't heard of that until just now. It's not in the Ubuntu
repositories, which is usually enough to deter me from installing
something. In this case, though, I'd also stay far away from it if
Wikipedia is right that they're considering adopting a pay-to-surf
business model in a future version.

Everything I create is shared for free and what I love about
GNU/Linux and its associated collections of software is being able to
get exactly that from others who share their work. Any time I see
greed rearing its ugly head, I tend to run in the other direction.

--
Little Girl

There is no spoon.

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Re: (not) one browser for all

Bret Busby-2
On 16/07/2019, Little Girl <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hey there,
>
> Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users wrote:
>>On Tue, 2019-07-16 at 08:01 -0400, Little Girl wrote:
>
>>> I thought I'd take this off-list since it's a new topic.
>>
>>By accident you sent it to the mailing list.
>
> Whoops. That will teach me to properly read the reply address.
>
>>> Just curious, but have you tried the Vivaldi browser? I don't know
>>> if it handles the history the way you like to because I have it
>>> clear my history every time I close it, leaving me no history to
>>> search, but it's worth a try.
>>>
>>> They're a rather interesting team with a surprisingly configurable
>>> browser. My only reason for not using it exclusively is that it's
>>> not open source.
>>
>>I liked the old Opera, not the new one and I also don't like Vivaldi
>>that much.
>
> Okay. I figured it was worth a mention in case you hadn't tried it.
>
>>Vivaldi "stable" is always up to date on my machine, since around 4
>>years now and there always is an issue.
>
> I haven't had it for quite as long and haven't done any tests on it.
> I do like some of its features, though, and wouldn't mind seeing them
> in other browsers.
>
>>[rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ grep vivaldi /var/log/pacman.log | grep
>>-e \(1.0.219.50-2 -e \(2.6.1566.40-1 [2015-11-05 19:16] [ALPM]
>>upgraded vivaldi (1.0.219.50-2 -> 1.0.303.52-1) [2019-06-25 13:24]
>>[ALPM] upgraded vivaldi (2.6.1566.40-1 -> 2.6.1566.44-1)
>>[rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ vivaldi-stable 2>&1 | grep ERROR
>>[1951:1951:0716/143848.368967:ERROR:sandbox_linux.cc(368)]
>>InitializeSandbox() called with multiple threads in process
>>gpu-process.
>>[1919:2005:0716/143848.454730:ERROR:object_proxy.cc(619)] Failed to
>>call method: org.freedesktop.Notifications.GetCapabilities:
>>object_path= /org/freedesktop/Notifications:
>>org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name
>>org.freedesktop.Notifications was not provided by any .service files
>>[1951:1951:0716/143848.630872:ERROR:buffer_manager.cc(488)]
>>[.DisplayCompositor]GL ERROR :GL_INVALID_OPERATION : glBufferData:
>><- error from previous GL command
>>[1919:1919:0716/143848.924735:ERROR:CONSOLE(0)] "[object Event]",
>>source:  (0) [1919:1919:0716/143849.889616:ERROR:CONSOLE(0)]
>>"Unchecked runtime.lastError: The message port closed before a
>>response was received.", source:
>>chrome-extension://mpognobbkildjkofajifpdfhcoklimli/browser.html (0)
>>[1919:1935:0716/143854.793373:ERROR:browser_process_sub_thread.cc(221)]
>>Waited 18 ms for network service
>>
>>It's possible to use Vivaldi, but a sandbox error isn't confidence-
>>inspiring.
>
> You're right. Mine throws an error on launch, too. I'll keep an eye on
> it from now on to see if they sort that out.
>
>>One of the browsers I never installed is Brave, it does block ads,
>>just to replace them with different ads.
>
> I hadn't heard of that until just now. It's not in the Ubuntu
> repositories, which is usually enough to deter me from installing
> something. In this case, though, I'd also stay far away from it if
> Wikipedia is right that they're considering adopting a pay-to-surf
> business model in a future version.
>
> Everything I create is shared for free and what I love about
> GNU/Linux and its associated collections of software is being able to
> get exactly that from others who share their work. Any time I see
> greed rearing its ugly head, I tend to run in the other direction.
>
> --
> Little Girl
>
> There is no spoon.
>

Hello.

There must be a spoon, because all it takes, is a spoonful of sugar...

Depending on what version of Ubuntu, you are using, I am using Midori,
on 16.04, as my primary web browser, but, as Midori went wonky for
18.04, I use Midori for only two sites, on 18.04..

Whilst I expect that you would be using a later version of Ubuntu,
than 16.04.x, if, perchance, you happen to be using 16.04.x, it may be
worth looking at Midori, as a possible alternative.

I had given up on Opera, when the Norsemen (Vikings?) sold it to the
chinese government, for the sinister purposes of the chinese
government.

The good version of Midori, on UbuntuMATE 16.04.x, shows as being
v0.5.11, and the not so good version of Midori, on UbuntuMATE 18.04.x,
shows as being v7-34-g0c5820f.

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
 you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
 Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
 "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
 A Trilogy In Four Parts",
 written by Douglas Adams,
 published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................

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Re: (not) one browser for all

Colin Law
On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 at 17:22, Bret Busby <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> There must be a spoon, because all it takes, is a spoonful of sugar...

A spoonful is a unit of measure, so could be defined for a mythical
spoon which does not actually exist.  A spoon full of sugar, however,
would require the existence of both the spoon and the sugar.

Colin

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Re: (not) one browser for all

Little Girl
In reply to this post by Bret Busby-2
Hey there,

Bret Busby wrote:

>On 16/07/2019, Little Girl <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> There is no spoon.
>
>There must be a spoon, because all it takes, is a spoonful of
>sugar...

There might not be any sugar either.

>Depending on what version of Ubuntu, you are using, I am using
>Midori, on 16.04, as my primary web browser, but, as Midori went
>wonky for 18.04, I use Midori for only two sites, on 18.04..
>
>Whilst I expect that you would be using a later version of Ubuntu,
>than 16.04.x, if, perchance, you happen to be using 16.04.x, it may
>be worth looking at Midori, as a possible alternative.

I've been shamefully bad and am still using Ubuntu MATE 16.04 (soon
to be replaced by Kubuntu 18.04 since at least one of the changes to
Ubuntu MATE 18.04 is an absolute show-stopper for me).

I'll take a look at Midori. It looks like it's part of the Xfce
desktop.

>I had given up on Opera, when the Norsemen (Vikings?) sold it to the
>chinese government, for the sinister purposes of the chinese
>government.

I've never used Opera. I had tried it for a few moments once and
didn't like the interface at all. Vivaldi is based on it, though, so I
guess I occasionally use it in a round-about way when I fire up
Vivaldi.

>The good version of Midori, on UbuntuMATE 16.04.x, shows as being
>v0.5.11, and the not so good version of Midori, on UbuntuMATE
>18.04.x, shows as being v7-34-g0c5820f.

What's different between them?

--
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There is no spoon.

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Re: (not) one browser for all

Bret Busby-2
In reply to this post by Colin Law
On 17/07/2019, Colin Law <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 at 17:22, Bret Busby <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> There must be a spoon, because all it takes, is a spoonful of sugar...
>
> A spoonful is a unit of measure, so could be defined for a mythical
> spoon which does not actually exist.  A spoon full of sugar, however,
> would require the existence of both the spoon and the sugar.
>
> Colin
>


Now, this is where it becomes multidimensional.

Given that a teaspoon is regarded as having 5 millilitres capacity,
and, a dessert spoon is regarded as having 10 millilitres capacity,
and, a tablespoon, being regarded as half a fluid ounce, is regarded
as having 20 millilitres capacity, then, a half-teaspoon, which is
also a spoon, has 2.5 millilitres capacity, and, a quarter teaspoon,
which is also a spoon, has 1.25 millilitres capacity, and, then, we
have the USA spoons, and, the USA, as is shown by its current
leadership, is in a world of its own, changing its facts and
measurements, as its mood changes.

As each of these spoons is a separate measurement, and, as the
universe is constantly expanding and contracting, then the relative
capacities of each of the different spoon sizes, is constantly
changing, the only constant unit of measurement, is time, by which,
all things are relative.

So, as the sheet of paper bends around, to reflect how all physical
things are curved, in time, so, the spoons curve around, upon
themselves, as, as the total number of spoons, can never be finitely
counted, to give a perpetually enduring total number of spoons, other
than as at any particular point in time, as most spoons are curved, to
reflect the curve of the bent paper, reflecting time, then, all of the
spoons, with their dynamic numbers and curves and, relative sizes,
relative to the volume of the universe, are multidimensional, and,
forever changing.

Time is the only unit of measure, and, the only constant.

But, ...

Time does not matter - only life matters.

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
 you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
 Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
 "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
 A Trilogy In Four Parts",
 written by Douglas Adams,
 published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................

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Re: (not) one browser for all

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Little Girl
On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 at 18:54, Little Girl <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've been shamefully bad and am still using Ubuntu MATE 16.04 (soon
> to be replaced by Kubuntu 18.04 since at least one of the changes to
> Ubuntu MATE 18.04 is an absolute show-stopper for me).

I'm curious -- what's that?

TBH, I wish I had not upgraded from vanilla Unity 16.04 to 18.04. The
new version is bigger, noticeably slower, and gives me absolutely no
benefit at all. :-(

> >The good version of Midori, on UbuntuMATE 16.04.x, shows as being
> >v0.5.11, and the not so good version of Midori, on UbuntuMATE
> >18.04.x, shows as being v7-34-g0c5820f.
>
> What's different between them?

Yes, I was wondering the same.


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Re: (not) one browser for all

Bret Busby-2
In reply to this post by Little Girl
On 17/07/2019, Little Girl <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hey there,
>
> Bret Busby wrote:
>
>>On 16/07/2019, Little Girl <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>> There is no spoon.
>>
>>There must be a spoon, because all it takes, is a spoonful of
>>sugar...
>
> There might not be any sugar either.
>
>>Depending on what version of Ubuntu, you are using, I am using
>>Midori, on 16.04, as my primary web browser, but, as Midori went
>>wonky for 18.04, I use Midori for only two sites, on 18.04..
>>
>>Whilst I expect that you would be using a later version of Ubuntu,
>>than 16.04.x, if, perchance, you happen to be using 16.04.x, it may
>>be worth looking at Midori, as a possible alternative.
>
> I've been shamefully bad and am still using Ubuntu MATE 16.04 (soon
> to be replaced by Kubuntu 18.04 since at least one of the changes to
> Ubuntu MATE 18.04 is an absolute show-stopper for me).
>
> I'll take a look at Midori. It looks like it's part of the Xfce
> desktop.
>
>>I had given up on Opera, when the Norsemen (Vikings?) sold it to the
>>chinese government, for the sinister purposes of the chinese
>>government.
>
> I've never used Opera. I had tried it for a few moments once and
> didn't like the interface at all. Vivaldi is based on it, though, so I
> guess I occasionally use it in a round-about way when I fire up
> Vivaldi.
>
>>The good version of Midori, on UbuntuMATE 16.04.x, shows as being
>>v0.5.11, and the not so good version of Midori, on UbuntuMATE
>>18.04.x, shows as being v7-34-g0c5820f.
>
> What's different between them?
>
> --
> Little Girl
>
> There is no spoon.
>


One of the annoying differences, is that, whilst the earlier version
provides for each browser window having a menubar, the later version
does not.

Functionality of the earlier version, is missing in the later version.

Another difference, is that, in the earlier version, encapsulation (if
this is the correcter term in this context) works with "Private
Browsing", and, does not, in the later version. I therefore, do not
trust the "privateness" of the Private Browsing, in the later version.

A good example of this, is that, in the version of Midori, on 16.04.x,
I can enable scripts (javascript) in a Private Browsing window, and,
that enabling of scripts, is limited to whatever Private Browsing
window, in which I have enabled it, and. nowhere else. From that, I
assume that preferences set within one Private Browsing Window, are
limited to existing within that Private Browser window, and, not
without. In the later version of Midori, I have found that the setting
of preferences, such as enabling scripts, is not contained within a
"Private Browsing" window, but, it applied without, so that, instead
of being like local variables, limited to the "Private Browsing"
window, in which they are set, they are like global variables,
unlimited in their presence, across all windows open of the web
browser. I therefore have no confidence in the "Private Browsing"
implementation, in the later version.

These are the main two significant differences, that I easily
remember. And, to me, they are both, quite significant.

If you are still using Ubuntu 16.04.x, as long as you keep updating
it, I suggest that you stay with it. I believe that 16.04, and its
associated packages, are superior to 18.04.

The only feature of 18.04, that I have found, that has an advantage
over 16.04, Is that I could install 18.04 into UEFI, on a MS Windows
10 computer, and, with 16.04, from memory, it has to be installed into
Legacy BIOS, and, can not be installed on a computer with MS Windows
10. I may be wrong in that, and, if I am wrong in that, I stand to be
corrected.

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
 you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
 Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
 "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
 A Trilogy In Four Parts",
 written by Douglas Adams,
 published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................

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Re: (not) one browser for all

Bret Busby-2
On 17/07/2019, Bret Busby <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 17/07/2019, Little Girl <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hey there,
>>
>> Bret Busby wrote:
>>
>>>On 16/07/2019, Little Girl <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>> There is no spoon.
>>>
>>>There must be a spoon, because all it takes, is a spoonful of
>>>sugar...
>>
>> There might not be any sugar either.
>>
>>>Depending on what version of Ubuntu, you are using, I am using
>>>Midori, on 16.04, as my primary web browser, but, as Midori went
>>>wonky for 18.04, I use Midori for only two sites, on 18.04..
>>>
>>>Whilst I expect that you would be using a later version of Ubuntu,
>>>than 16.04.x, if, perchance, you happen to be using 16.04.x, it may
>>>be worth looking at Midori, as a possible alternative.
>>
>> I've been shamefully bad and am still using Ubuntu MATE 16.04 (soon
>> to be replaced by Kubuntu 18.04 since at least one of the changes to
>> Ubuntu MATE 18.04 is an absolute show-stopper for me).
>>
>> I'll take a look at Midori. It looks like it's part of the Xfce
>> desktop.
>>
>>>I had given up on Opera, when the Norsemen (Vikings?) sold it to the
>>>chinese government, for the sinister purposes of the chinese
>>>government.
>>
>> I've never used Opera. I had tried it for a few moments once and
>> didn't like the interface at all. Vivaldi is based on it, though, so I
>> guess I occasionally use it in a round-about way when I fire up
>> Vivaldi.
>>
>>>The good version of Midori, on UbuntuMATE 16.04.x, shows as being
>>>v0.5.11, and the not so good version of Midori, on UbuntuMATE
>>>18.04.x, shows as being v7-34-g0c5820f.
>>
>> What's different between them?
>>
>> --
>> Little Girl
>>
>> There is no spoon.
>>
>
>
> One of the annoying differences, is that, whilst the earlier version
> provides for each browser window having a menubar, the later version
> does not.
>
> Functionality of the earlier version, is missing in the later version.
>
> Another difference, is that, in the earlier version, encapsulation (if
> this is the correcter term in this context) works with "Private
> Browsing", and, does not, in the later version. I therefore, do not
> trust the "privateness" of the Private Browsing, in the later version.
>
> A good example of this, is that, in the version of Midori, on 16.04.x,
> I can enable scripts (javascript) in a Private Browsing window, and,
> that enabling of scripts, is limited to whatever Private Browsing
> window, in which I have enabled it, and. nowhere else. From that, I
> assume that preferences set within one Private Browsing Window, are
> limited to existing within that Private Browser window, and, not
> without. In the later version of Midori, I have found that the setting
> of preferences, such as enabling scripts, is not contained within a
> "Private Browsing" window, but, it applied without, so that, instead
> of being like local variables, limited to the "Private Browsing"
> window, in which they are set, they are like global variables,
> unlimited in their presence, across all windows open of the web
> browser. I therefore have no confidence in the "Private Browsing"
> implementation, in the later version.
>
> These are the main two significant differences, that I easily
> remember. And, to me, they are both, quite significant.
>
> If you are still using Ubuntu 16.04.x, as long as you keep updating
> it, I suggest that you stay with it. I believe that 16.04, and its
> associated packages, are superior to 18.04.
>
> The only feature of 18.04, that I have found, that has an advantage
> over 16.04, Is that I could install 18.04 into UEFI, on a MS Windows
> 10 computer, and, with 16.04, from memory, it has to be installed into
> Legacy BIOS, and, can not be installed on a computer with MS Windows
> 10. I may be wrong in that, and, if I am wrong in that, I stand to be
> corrected.
>


I have just seen, in the message from Liam, that you (Little Girl (I
feel uneasy using that name) ) are also using UbuntuMATE, 16.04.x.

It is the best OS that is currently supported (I do note that a recent
CERT advisory, advises that Microsoft has surprisingly released a
particular security update in the last month, for Windows XP). I
recommend that you stay with UbuntuMATE 16.04.x. It has another couple
of years of (supported) life, so, unless you need to change, I would
stay with it.


--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
 you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
 Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
 "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
 A Trilogy In Four Parts",
 written by Douglas Adams,
 published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................

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Changing desktops - Was: (not) one browser for all

Little Girl
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
Hey there,

Liam Proven wrote:

>On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 at 18:54, Little Girl <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>
>> I've been shamefully bad and am still using Ubuntu MATE 16.04 (soon
>> to be replaced by Kubuntu 18.04 since at least one of the changes
>> to Ubuntu MATE 18.04 is an absolute show-stopper for me).  
>
>I'm curious -- what's that?

They intentionally removed the ability to customize theme colors:

https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/ubuntu-mate-18-04-no-color-tab-for-theme-customization/17682/16

For someone like me, that's completely unacceptable. As you can see
by the types of color choices I make (as seen in this post that I had
shared in this mailing list before), someone like me could never be
satisfied with default theme offerings:

https://mostlylinux.wordpress.com/2018/07/

It's possible to manually customize the theme in Ubuntu MATE, but you
have to do a delicate CSS dance in multiple files that are in
multiple locations. Not all of the code used for styling is standard
and there's no central documentation for theming from which you can
get the names of every possible available element. That means you
have to do quite a bit of sleuthing.

I've made headway on customizing my copy of Ubuntu MATE 18.04 in a
VM so that it looks good at first glance, but, on close inspection, it
quickly becomes obvious that it still needs quite a bit of work
before every bit of the theme is customized.

The sheer number of hours that I've already put into customizing my
copy of Ubuntu MATE 18.04 combined with the number of hours it will
take to finish the job make it not worth it. Even if I were to go
ahead and do it, one update (or the installation of a program) could
start the whole process over again, which means I'd have to maintain
an ongoing manual theme vigil. Once again, that's just not worth it.

I strongly disliked KDE 5 when it first came out and still find it to
be heavy and somewhat awkward, to say the least, but it looks like
the Kubuntu team has done some work on it since I left them when they
switched to it, so I should be able to find a way to get comfortable
with it now.

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Re: (not) one browser for all

ubuntu-users mailing list
In reply to this post by Bret Busby-2
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 00:20:38 +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
>The good version of Midori, on UbuntuMATE 16.04.x, shows as being
>v0.5.11, and the not so good version of Midori, on UbuntuMATE 18.04.x,
>shows as being v7-34-g0c5820f.

I'm using 16.04 as well as Arch Linux. I removed Midori on Arch Linux
already in 2013. The version provided for 16.04 does use
webkitgtk. Midori is available again for 19.04, not using
webkitgtk anymore, they migrated to webkit2gtk. You shouldn't use
webkitgtk, it's hardly possible to do something that is more insecure.


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Re: (not) one browser for all

ubuntu-users mailing list
In reply to this post by Little Girl
On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:51:21 -0400, Little Girl wrote:
>>The good version of Midori, on UbuntuMATE 16.04.x, shows as being
>>v0.5.11, and the not so good version of Midori, on UbuntuMATE
>>18.04.x, shows as being v7-34-g0c5820f.  
>
>What's different between them?

At least webkitgtk vs webkit2gtk.

https://packages.ubuntu.com/search?suite=xenial&searchon=names&keywords=midori

If you click from xenial to eoan you'll notice that is only available
for 16.04, with the fatal risky webkitgtk and then again for >= 19.04,
but migrated to webkit2gtk. It was dropped for 18.04 and 18.10.


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Re: (not) one browser for all

ubuntu-users mailing list
In reply to this post by Bret Busby-2
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 01:15:09 +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
>I therefore, do not trust the "privateness" of the Private Browsing,
>in the later version.

The earlier version depends on webkitgtk, so you don't have any
privacy/security at all, it's discontinued and perhaps the most
vulnerable software on your machine.


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Re: Changing desktops - Was: (not) one browser for all

Little Girl
In reply to this post by Bret Busby-2
Hey there,

Bret Busby wrote:
>On 17/07/2019, Little Girl <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Bret Busby wrote:

>>>The good version of Midori, on UbuntuMATE 16.04.x, shows as being
>>>v0.5.11, and the not so good version of Midori, on UbuntuMATE
>>>18.04.x, shows as being v7-34-g0c5820f.  
>>
>> What's different between them?
>
>One of the annoying differences, is that, whilst the earlier version
>provides for each browser window having a menubar, the later version
>does not.

Ah, I've seen that in Firefox and it was a setting you can change by
right-clicking the hamburger icon and putting a tick in the "Menu Bar"
box to enable the bar. You might be able to do that in Midori, too.

>Another difference, is that, in the earlier version, encapsulation
>(if this is the correcter term in this context) works with "Private
>Browsing", and, does not, in the later version. I therefore, do not
>trust the "privateness" of the Private Browsing, in the later
>version.
>
>A good example of this, is that, in the version of Midori, on
>16.04.x, I can enable scripts (javascript) in a Private Browsing
>window, and, that enabling of scripts, is limited to whatever
>Private Browsing window, in which I have enabled it, and. nowhere
>else. From that, I assume that preferences set within one Private
>Browsing Window, are limited to existing within that Private Browser
>window, and, not without. In the later version of Midori, I have
>found that the setting of preferences, such as enabling scripts, is
>not contained within a "Private Browsing" window, but, it applied
>without, so that, instead of being like local variables, limited to
>the "Private Browsing" window, in which they are set, they are like
>global variables, unlimited in their presence, across all windows
>open of the web browser. I therefore have no confidence in the
>"Private Browsing" implementation, in the later version.
>
>These are the main two significant differences, that I easily
>remember. And, to me, they are both, quite significant.

That's definitely significant and enough that I would question it as
well. Have you reported it in their bug tracker so the developers can
take a look at it and see if it's an oversight that needs fixing?

>If you are still using Ubuntu 16.04.x, as long as you keep updating
>it, I suggest that you stay with it. I believe that 16.04, and its
>associated packages, are superior to 18.04.

It looks like it's good until 2021, so I guess there's no hurry
after all:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases

Somehow I had been under the impression that I should hurry up and
upgrade because I wouldn't be getting full support any more, but it
looks like that was in reference to the non-LTS release.

>The only feature of 18.04, that I have found, that has an advantage
>over 16.04, Is that I could install 18.04 into UEFI, on a MS Windows
>10 computer, and, with 16.04, from memory, it has to be installed
>into Legacy BIOS, and, can not be installed on a computer with MS
>Windows 10. I may be wrong in that, and, if I am wrong in that, I
>stand to be corrected.

I'm not quite sure, but I remember we had to get creative with the
UEFI in order to get Ubuntu 16.04 onto our machines (with
very different motherboards).

Below are my notes on UEFI in the event that they'd be of any use to
anyone else. They worked for us, but feel free to look them over and
offer suggestions for improvements since I'll probably be using them
when the time comes to upgrade to Kubuntu:

====================
When you install MATE with your new hardware, you'll want to pay
attention to whether your BIOS (or whatever they refer to it as
nowadays) is set up for UEFI or Legacy before you install since you
need to partition your drive in a specific way for each one.

UEFI is modern and legacy is for backwards compatibility. Do some
research on UEFI and see whether it's something you want or need. If
you decide that it is, then some additional research would be in
order to see how it's used.

Here's some recommended reading that you'll want to supplement with
additional research elsewhere:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UEFI

https://askubuntu.com/questions/647303/uefi-or-legacy-which-is-advised-and-why

https://askubuntu.com/questions/446968/legacy-vs-uefi-help 

If you can't partition your drive properly for UEFI, you may have to
change the BIOS setting from UEFI to Legacy. You have two choices:

        * You can enable UEFI in your BIOS (your motherboard handbook
          will tell you how) and you will not have to make a BIOS
          boot partition at all.

        * You can disable UEFI in your BIOS (choosing Legacy instead)
          and make a 1 MB BIOS boot partition, because GRUB requires
          it on a GPT-partitioned hard drive.

Important: If you get an "unable to satisfy all constraints on the
partition" message, this is a Gparted bug that's been around since
2010. You must have at least 1 MB of free space BEFORE THE FIRST
PARTITION ON THE DRIVE NO MATTER WHICH WAY YOU PARTITION THE DRIVE.
To solve that issue, you'll need to shrink one of your other
partitions so that you have free space on the drive.

Also, while inside the BIOS, instead of changing the boot order of
your devices so that it will boot from USB first, you can leave the
boot order as is and press F12 during boot to choose which device to
boot from when you want to boot from USB.

Also, the Ubuntu developers seem fo have fallen over when it came to
dismounting USB. If you put a USB stick in and boot from it to try
out the Live CD and then decide to shut down and reboot from the USB
stick so you can install the operating system (instead of clicking
the Install button on the desktop), you can't just leave the USB
stick in (which is what we tried to do since we knew we'd be using it
right away again). Instead, you must remove the USB stick when
prompted as part of the shutdown and then plug it back in after after
shutting down or it won't boot from it when you restart.
====================

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There is no spoon.

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Re: Changing desktops - Was: (not) one browser for all

Little Girl
In reply to this post by Bret Busby-2
Hey there,

Bret Busby wrote:

>I have just seen, in the message from Liam, that you (Little Girl (I
>feel uneasy using that name) ) are also using UbuntuMATE, 16.04.x.

Sorry about that. It's my former CB handle and pertains to size
rather than age, but I can see why it might be better to phase it
out. I'm Elliria.

>It is the best OS that is currently supported (I do note that a
>recent CERT advisory, advises that Microsoft has surprisingly
>released a particular security update in the last month, for Windows
>XP).

I didn't realize that. I don't keep up with the older versions of
that operating system, but just keep the latest version on my work
computer in case it's needed since many businesses require that you
have it.

>I recommend that you stay with UbuntuMATE 16.04.x. It has another
>couple of years of (supported) life, so, unless you need to change,
>I would stay with it.

It's not currently failing for me in any way, but I'd like to upgrade
to the new LTS since each LTS is behind the times on much of its
software as a direct result of its stability strategy. There must be
at least a few features that I'm missing out on in the more recent
versions of some of my favorite programs.

Getting up the motivation to go through the process of upgrading is
another matter, though, so I may just take advantage of the
longer-than-expected support and wait a while to do the upgrade. I
know the installation doesn't take long, but all the little tweaks
and adjustments that need to be made end up taking several days to
do and I always find an excuse to put that off.

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Re: Changing desktops - Was: (not) one browser for all

Bret Busby-2
In reply to this post by Little Girl
On 17/07/2019, Little Girl <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hey there,
>
> Bret Busby wrote:
>>On 17/07/2019, Little Girl <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Bret Busby wrote:
>
>>>>The good version of Midori, on UbuntuMATE 16.04.x, shows as being
>>>>v0.5.11, and the not so good version of Midori, on UbuntuMATE
>>>>18.04.x, shows as being v7-34-g0c5820f.
>>>
>>> What's different between them?
>>
>>One of the annoying differences, is that, whilst the earlier version
>>provides for each browser window having a menubar, the later version
>>does not.
>
> Ah, I've seen that in Firefox and it was a setting you can change by
> right-clicking the hamburger icon and putting a tick in the "Menu Bar"
> box to enable the bar. You might be able to do that in Midori, too.
>

The earlier version of Midori provided that option - the later version
eliminated it.

>>Another difference, is that, in the earlier version, encapsulation
>>(if this is the correcter term in this context) works with "Private
>>Browsing", and, does not, in the later version. I therefore, do not
>>trust the "privateness" of the Private Browsing, in the later
>>version.
>>
>>A good example of this, is that, in the version of Midori, on
>>16.04.x, I can enable scripts (javascript) in a Private Browsing
>>window, and, that enabling of scripts, is limited to whatever
>>Private Browsing window, in which I have enabled it, and. nowhere
>>else. From that, I assume that preferences set within one Private
>>Browsing Window, are limited to existing within that Private Browser
>>window, and, not without. In the later version of Midori, I have
>>found that the setting of preferences, such as enabling scripts, is
>>not contained within a "Private Browsing" window, but, it applied
>>without, so that, instead of being like local variables, limited to
>>the "Private Browsing" window, in which they are set, they are like
>>global variables, unlimited in their presence, across all windows
>>open of the web browser. I therefore have no confidence in the
>>"Private Browsing" implementation, in the later version.
>>
>>These are the main two significant differences, that I easily
>>remember. And, to me, they are both, quite significant.
>
> That's definitely significant and enough that I would question it as
> well. Have you reported it in their bug tracker so the developers can
> take a look at it and see if it's an oversight that needs fixing?
>

To report any bugs, a person has to go through this procedure of
becoming a git or something - an account has to be created, and, it is
too troublesome.

Once upon a time, email addresses were provided for problems. Now, it
is made far more difficult to report problems with software.


--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
 you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
 Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
 "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
 A Trilogy In Four Parts",
 written by Douglas Adams,
 published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................

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Re: Changing desktops - Was: (not) one browser for all

ubuntu-users mailing list
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 05:13:08 +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
>Once upon a time, email addresses were provided for problems. Now, it
>is made far more difficult to report problems with software.

Since the homepage is a PITA, you could take a look at Wikipedia,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_(web_browser) , the upper right box
contains the information where to find the Midori repository.

To sign up at https://github.com/join only your email address is
needed, after that sign in with your email address e.g. via
https://github.com/login?return_to=%2Fmidori-browser%2Fcore .

Visit https://github.com/midori-browser/core/issues to see if your
feature request or bug already is reported. If not, open a new issue,
https://github.com/midori-browser/core/issues/new and you're done.


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Re: Changing desktops - Was: (not) one browser for all

Bret Busby-2
On 17/07/2019, Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 05:13:08 +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
>>Once upon a time, email addresses were provided for problems. Now, it
>>is made far more difficult to report problems with software.
>
> Since the homepage is a PITA, you could take a look at Wikipedia,
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_(web_browser) , the upper right box
> contains the information where to find the Midori repository.
>
> To sign up at https://github.com/join only your email address is
> needed, after that sign in with your email address e.g. via
> https://github.com/login?return_to=%2Fmidori-browser%2Fcore .
>
> Visit https://github.com/midori-browser/core/issues to see if your
> feature request or bug already is reported. If not, open a new issue,
> https://github.com/midori-browser/core/issues/new and you're done.
>
>

It is all so plurry complicated.

NetSurf (and, not only NetSurf; it equally applies to many software
packages, and various operating systems) has a mailing list, where
users can post concerns, without having to login to myriads of
accounts, of which a user would need to keep track (and,
ill-advisedly, keep files of accounts details, including passwords for
each of the myriad accounts).


But, then, developers of software, choose how accessible they will
make support for their software.

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
 you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
 Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
 "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
 A Trilogy In Four Parts",
 written by Douglas Adams,
 published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................

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