old disk access

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old disk access

rikona
Some of the old disks I'm trying to access are likely quite old - in
the 250 to 750 MB range. Same connectors as old but larger disks
[1GB and up] that I can access. In disks they just show up as generic
ATA/ATAPI and it says "no media". A couple did a lot of
screeching/beeping before they finally decided to run, but none of the
very small ones show as a disk. What may be preventing me from accessing
those smaller disks?

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Re: old disk access

Peter Flynn
On 15/05/2019 21:47, rikona wrote:
> Some of the old disks I'm trying to access are likely quite old - in
> the 250 to 750 MB range. Same connectors as old but larger disks [1GB
> and up] that I can access. In disks they just show up as generic
> ATA/ATAPI and it says "no media". A couple did a lot of
> screeching/beeping before they finally decided to run, but none of
> the very small ones show as a disk. What may be preventing me from
> accessing those smaller disks?

How are you connecting these drives to your system? That is, what kind
of cable, what kind of connectors, and what is the other end plugged
into? Most PC-type systems I have seen come with only two hard drive
connectors, so I assume one of those is your main drive where your
Ubuntu is installed which you're running, and you're using the other
connection for these old disks, one by one. Is that right?

If my memory is right, PC-style connections for ATA hard disks meant the
disks had to be configured as Master or Slave, depending on whether they
were meant to be the primary boot disk or not. To change configurations
you need to move a tiny little jumper between pins, for which you need
to refer to a little map of the pins printed next to them, or have a
copy of the original disk drive documentation :-)

Peter

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Re: old disk access

Robert Heller
In reply to this post by rikona
At Wed, 15 May 2019 13:47:25 -0700 "Ubuntu user technical support,  not for general discussions" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Some of the old disks I'm trying to access are likely quite old - in
> the 250 to 750 MB range. Same connectors as old but larger disks
> [1GB and up] that I can access. In disks they just show up as generic
> ATA/ATAPI and it says "no media". A couple did a lot of
> screeching/beeping before they finally decided to run, but none of the
> very small ones show as a disk. What may be preventing me from accessing
> those smaller disks?

Old rotating rust disks often suffer from "sticktion" -- the spindle lub turns
to something like glue.  *Sometime* a wack with unstick them.  Sometimes, they
are just ready for a trip to the landfil (or recycling center)...

>

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Re: old disk access

ubuntu-users mailing list
In reply to this post by Peter Flynn
The mobo I'm using at the moment has got no PATA/IDE connectors at all.
Assuming new kernels would suffer from an IDE controller
support regression, how many users would report this upstream?

This page was last modified on 9 July 2013:
https://ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Main_Page


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Re: old disk access

Gene Heskett-2
On Wednesday 15 May 2019 08:40:31 pm Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users wrote:

> The mobo I'm using at the moment has got no PATA/IDE connectors at
> all. Assuming new kernels would suffer from an IDE controller
> support regression, how many users would report this upstream?
>
> This page was last modified on 9 July 2013:
> https://ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Main_Page

Ralf, you are undoubtedly, from previous posts in this thread, dealing
with mfm hardware, with has two cables per drive, one wider one for
control, 34 pin ISTR and a narrower 20 pin ISTR one for data.

That interface has been dead for at least 20 years, maybe more.  Any
drives that still exist will need a gentle sideways blow on a corner
within 10 seconds of powerup with an 8oz dead-blow hammer to break the
head stiction loose and let them start.  And you'll like have to locate
a copy of redhat 5.0 from about 1998 in order to get the mfm style
drivers.

That has to be very valuable data.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: old disk access

rikona
In reply to this post by Peter Flynn
On Wed, 15 May 2019 21:58:40 +0100
Peter Flynn <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 15/05/2019 21:47, rikona wrote:
> > Some of the old disks I'm trying to access are likely quite old -
> > in the 250 to 750 MB range. Same connectors as old but larger disks
> > [1GB and up] that I can access. In disks they just show up as
> > generic ATA/ATAPI and it says "no media". A couple did a lot of
> > screeching/beeping before they finally decided to run, but none of
> > the very small ones show as a disk. What may be preventing me from
> > accessing those smaller disks?  
>
> How are you connecting these drives to your system? That is, what
> kind of cable, what kind of connectors, and what is the other end
> plugged into?

I'm using a Vantec IDE/SATA to USB3 adapter, plugged into my Ubuntu
16.04 box. It has 3 different disk connectors on the adapter, for
different kinds of disks. I've been able to see and copy from about a
dozen old IDE and SATA drives. I copy a bit from these old drives to a
second USB3, a Sabrent HD docking station with a 2TB SATA drive in
there.

> Most PC-type systems I have seen come with only two
> hard drive connectors, so I assume one of those is your main drive
> where your Ubuntu is installed which you're running, and you're using
> the other connection for these old disks, one by one. Is that right?

No direct connection to the MB. Case stays closed. :-)

> If my memory is right, PC-style connections for ATA hard disks meant
> the disks had to be configured as Master or Slave, depending on
> whether they were meant to be the primary boot disk or not. To change
> configurations you need to move a tiny little jumper between pins,
> for which you need to refer to a little map of the pins printed next
> to them, or have a copy of the original disk drive documentation :-)

Some do have these jumpers but docs are long gone. :-( Some may have
been in a comp with multiple drives - I vaguely remember that this may
need jumper changes. Any thoughts as to how they should be configured to
run in the above USB configuration?

>
> Peter
>


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Re: old disk access

Robert Heller
In reply to this post by ubuntu-users mailing list
At Thu, 16 May 2019 02:40:31 +0200 "Ubuntu user technical support,  not for general discussions" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> The mobo I'm using at the moment has got no PATA/IDE connectors at all.
> Assuming new kernels would suffer from an IDE controller
> support regression, how many users would report this upstream?

I believe that the PATA/IDE driver is still staticly included in the kernel.
And the PATA/IDE interface is pretty simple and standardized at this point.
*Some* mobo still have one PATA/IDE connector (and some even still have a
floppy controller), and even modern mobos have at least a 10pin header for
/dev/ttyS0, even if the mobo does not come with a little dingus with the DB9
connector on it.

*I* have a universal disk <=> USB adapter (SATA, desktop PATA/IDE, and laptop
PATA/IDE).  I can connect to any disk, since PATA/IDE.  Of course, using this
gadget, the kernel will only see some flavor of USB disk, showing up as
/dev/sd<mumble>, even for PATA/IDE disks.


>
> This page was last modified on 9 July 2013:
> https://ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Main_Page
>
>

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Re: old disk access

rikona
In reply to this post by Robert Heller
On Wed, 15 May 2019 19:02:50 -0400 (EDT)
Robert Heller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> At Wed, 15 May 2019 13:47:25 -0700 "Ubuntu user technical support,
> not for general discussions" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Some of the old disks I'm trying to access are likely quite old - in
> > the 250 to 750 MB range. Same connectors as old but larger disks
> > [1GB and up] that I can access. In disks they just show up as
> > generic ATA/ATAPI and it says "no media". A couple did a lot of
> > screeching/beeping before they finally decided to run, but none of
> > the very small ones show as a disk. What may be preventing me from
> > accessing those smaller disks?  
>
> Old rotating rust disks often suffer from "sticktion" -- the spindle
> lub turns to something like glue.  *Sometime* a wack with unstick
> them.  Sometimes, they are just ready for a trip to the landfil (or
> recycling center)...

That description fits what happened pretty well. I was going to recycle
them after getting off info I'd like to keep - if anyone is still
interested in such ancient drives, otherwise grind em up and give to a
place that can use the metals.

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Re: old disk access

rikona
In reply to this post by ubuntu-users mailing list
On Thu, 16 May 2019 02:40:31 +0200
Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The mobo I'm using at the moment has got no PATA/IDE connectors at
> all. Assuming new kernels would suffer from an IDE controller
> support regression, how many users would report this upstream?

I don't plug these drives into the MB. You bring up an idea - wouldn't
the IDE controller support be built into the USB device, and not the
comp? Could that be where the "small drive" problem occurs?

> This page was last modified on 9 July 2013:
> https://ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Main_Page
>
>


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Re: old disk access

Robert Heller
In reply to this post by rikona
At Wed, 15 May 2019 19:08:42 -0700 "Ubuntu user technical support,  not for general discussions" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Wed, 15 May 2019 21:58:40 +0100
> Peter Flynn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 15/05/2019 21:47, rikona wrote:
> > > Some of the old disks I'm trying to access are likely quite old -
> > > in the 250 to 750 MB range. Same connectors as old but larger disks
> > > [1GB and up] that I can access. In disks they just show up as
> > > generic ATA/ATAPI and it says "no media". A couple did a lot of
> > > screeching/beeping before they finally decided to run, but none of
> > > the very small ones show as a disk. What may be preventing me from
> > > accessing those smaller disks?  
> >
> > How are you connecting these drives to your system? That is, what
> > kind of cable, what kind of connectors, and what is the other end
> > plugged into?
>
> I'm using a Vantec IDE/SATA to USB3 adapter, plugged into my Ubuntu
> 16.04 box. It has 3 different disk connectors on the adapter, for
> different kinds of disks. I've been able to see and copy from about a
> dozen old IDE and SATA drives. I copy a bit from these old drives to a
> second USB3, a Sabrent HD docking station with a 2TB SATA drive in
> there.

There is a possibility (unlikely if these were all boot/system disks) that
they are jumppered as "slave". PATA/IDE disks were designed to have two
devices on one cable, with the second device jumpered as a slave. (Commonly
the boot disk would be the "master" and the CDROM (maybe! DVDROM) drive would
be the slave). There should be a place for two shorting jumpers next to the
cable header and there should be instructions on the label for setting the
drive for master (what you want) or slave.

>
> > Most PC-type systems I have seen come with only two
> > hard drive connectors, so I assume one of those is your main drive
> > where your Ubuntu is installed which you're running, and you're using
> > the other connection for these old disks, one by one. Is that right?
>
> No direct connection to the MB. Case stays closed. :-)
>
> > If my memory is right, PC-style connections for ATA hard disks meant
> > the disks had to be configured as Master or Slave, depending on
> > whether they were meant to be the primary boot disk or not. To change
> > configurations you need to move a tiny little jumper between pins,
> > for which you need to refer to a little map of the pins printed next
> > to them, or have a copy of the original disk drive documentation :-)
>
> Some do have these jumpers but docs are long gone. :-( Some may have
> been in a comp with multiple drives - I vaguely remember that this may
> need jumper changes. Any thoughts as to how they should be configured to
> run in the above USB configuration?

They should be "master".  There is *usually* something on the drive label
itself with the info you need.

>
> >
> > Peter
> >
>
>

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Re: old disk access

Robert Heller
In reply to this post by rikona
At Wed, 15 May 2019 19:13:42 -0700 "Ubuntu user technical support,  not for general discussions" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Wed, 15 May 2019 19:02:50 -0400 (EDT)
> Robert Heller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > At Wed, 15 May 2019 13:47:25 -0700 "Ubuntu user technical support,
> > not for general discussions" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Some of the old disks I'm trying to access are likely quite old - in
> > > the 250 to 750 MB range. Same connectors as old but larger disks
> > > [1GB and up] that I can access. In disks they just show up as
> > > generic ATA/ATAPI and it says "no media". A couple did a lot of
> > > screeching/beeping before they finally decided to run, but none of
> > > the very small ones show as a disk. What may be preventing me from
> > > accessing those smaller disks?  
> >
> > Old rotating rust disks often suffer from "sticktion" -- the spindle
> > lub turns to something like glue.  *Sometime* a wack with unstick
> > them.  Sometimes, they are just ready for a trip to the landfil (or
> > recycling center)...
>
> That description fits what happened pretty well. I was going to recycle
> them after getting off info I'd like to keep - if anyone is still
> interested in such ancient drives, otherwise grind em up and give to a
> place that can use the metals.

If you an interrest or use for really strong magnets, you could disassemble
them.

The insides also can be used for fun art projects:

http://www.wendellmass.us/index.php/community/wendell-photo-gallery/10-library-afterschool-art-projects/detail/1071-img0531.html?tmpl=component
http://www.wendellmass.us/index.php/community/wendell-photo-gallery/10-library-afterschool-art-projects/detail/1072-img0532.html?tmpl=component
http://www.wendellmass.us/index.php/community/wendell-photo-gallery/10-library-afterschool-art-projects/detail/1073-img0533.html?tmpl=component
http://www.wendellmass.us/index.php/community/wendell-photo-gallery/10-library-afterschool-art-projects/detail/1074-img0534.html?tmpl=component


>

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Re: old disk access

Robert Heller
In reply to this post by rikona
At Wed, 15 May 2019 19:15:19 -0700 "Ubuntu user technical support,  not for general discussions" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Thu, 16 May 2019 02:40:31 +0200
> Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > The mobo I'm using at the moment has got no PATA/IDE connectors at
> > all. Assuming new kernels would suffer from an IDE controller
> > support regression, how many users would report this upstream?
>
> I don't plug these drives into the MB. You bring up an idea - wouldn't
> the IDE controller support be built into the USB device, and not the
> comp? Could that be where the "small drive" problem occurs?

No, since you are using a USB adapter, all of the PATA/IDE driver logic is in
the USB adapter firmware.  The Linux kernel just sees a USB disk.  It is more
likely that the disks are beyond recovery, but it might be master/slave
jumpper issue.

>
> > This page was last modified on 9 July 2013:
> > https://ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Main_Page
> >
> >
>
>

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Re: old disk access

Peter Flynn
In reply to this post by rikona
(Apologies for top-posting: I'm still looking for an Android MUA that has a
proper editor.)

I didn't realise you were trying to do this on a modern machine with an
adapter cable. That is almost certainly the reason for some disks working
and others not: as Robert said, all the computer can see is USB — it has no
idea there's a disk drive the other end, and the logic in the cable setup
only handles certain types of disk.

When I used to do this kind of recovery I used a 1990s generic PC assembled
from parts so that I could mimic the original environment fairly closely. I
agree with Gene that the disks are obsolete, but there are still hundreds
of thousands of computers out there using them, so finding one you can
borrow to do the job is probably not hard.

Look closely on the disks beside the jumpers using a magnifying glass,
there is usually a little table of pins with cryptic abbreviations like M
and S for the jumper positions. Failing that, ask Mr Google for the make,
model, type, and size of drive.

Failing that, if the data is life-or-death important, or otherwise
irreplaceably valuable,  there are many good companies out there who can
recover data from old media.

P

On 16 May 2019 03:09:19 rikona <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 15 May 2019 21:58:40 +0100
> Peter Flynn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 15/05/2019 21:47, rikona wrote:
>>> Some of the old disks I'm trying to access are likely quite old -
>>> in the 250 to 750 MB range. Same connectors as old but larger disks
>>> [1GB and up] that I can access. In disks they just show up as
>>> generic ATA/ATAPI and it says "no media". A couple did a lot of
>>> screeching/beeping before they finally decided to run, but none of
>>> the very small ones show as a disk. What may be preventing me from
>>> accessing those smaller disks?
>>
>> How are you connecting these drives to your system? That is, what
>> kind of cable, what kind of connectors, and what is the other end
>> plugged into?
>
> I'm using a Vantec IDE/SATA to USB3 adapter, plugged into my Ubuntu
> 16.04 box. It has 3 different disk connectors on the adapter, for
> different kinds of disks. I've been able to see and copy from about a
> dozen old IDE and SATA drives. I copy a bit from these old drives to a
> second USB3, a Sabrent HD docking station with a 2TB SATA drive in
> there.
>
>> Most PC-type systems I have seen come with only two
>> hard drive connectors, so I assume one of those is your main drive
>> where your Ubuntu is installed which you're running, and you're using
>> the other connection for these old disks, one by one. Is that right?
>
> No direct connection to the MB. Case stays closed. :-)
>
>> If my memory is right, PC-style connections for ATA hard disks meant
>> the disks had to be configured as Master or Slave, depending on
>> whether they were meant to be the primary boot disk or not. To change
>> configurations you need to move a tiny little jumper between pins,
>> for which you need to refer to a little map of the pins printed next
>> to them, or have a copy of the original disk drive documentation :-)
>
> Some do have these jumpers but docs are long gone. :-( Some may have
> been in a comp with multiple drives - I vaguely remember that this may
> need jumper changes. Any thoughts as to how they should be configured to
> run in the above USB configuration?
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Peter
>
>
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Re: old disk access

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by rikona
On Thu, 16 May 2019 at 04:11, rikona <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Some do have these jumpers but docs are long gone. :-(

Google

{drive model number} jumper settings

> Some may have
> been in a comp with multiple drives - I vaguely remember that this may
> need jumper changes. Any thoughts as to how they should be configured to
> run in the above USB configuration?

Master.

In the unlikely event that there is a setting for it -- *very* old
drives only -- "Master" +

>
> >
> > Peter
> >
>
>
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Re: old disk access

Liam Proven
On Thu, 16 May 2019 at 12:24, Liam Proven <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sorry. Gmail got confused. I hate Javascript apps.

> In the unlikely event that there is a setting for it -- *very* old
> drives only -- "Master" +

"Master" + "Single Drive"

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Re: old disk access

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Peter Flynn
On Thu, 16 May 2019 at 11:38, Peter Flynn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> (Apologies for top-posting: I'm still looking for an Android MUA that has a
> proper editor.)

K9 Mail is the only one I know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-9_Mail

https://k9mail.github.io/

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.fsck.k9&hl=en

I tried it.

My conclusion was, don't do email on Android. Reading is OK, but for
mailing lists and proper quoting etc, use a real computer.

https://dilbert.com/strip/1995-06-24

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Re: old disk access

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Robert Heller
On Thu, 16 May 2019 at 04:13, Robert Heller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I believe that the PATA/IDE driver is still staticly included in the kernel.

It is. I mean you could compile a custom kernel without it, but it's there.

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Cellphone email (was: Re: old disk access

Peter Flynn
In reply to this post by Liam Proven
On 16 May 2019 11:28:23 Liam Proven <[hidden email]> wrote:

[K9]
> I tried it.
>
>
> My conclusion was, don't do email on Android. Reading is OK, but for
> mailing lists and proper quoting etc, use a real computer.

I used to use K9. I'm using Aquamail at the moment, which I thought
marginally better when used with  Bluetooth keyboard.

But there are times like now (on the trainfor a short trip for which I
don't need the laptop) when a decent editor would be useful.

Note to developers:I would pay real money for an Android MUA which worked
like an MUA is supposed to, and I suspect millions of tech people would
consider doing the same. I would even write the spec for you for free.

P



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Re: Cellphone email (was: Re: old disk access

ubuntu-users mailing list
On Thu, 16 May 2019 13:50:41 +0100, Peter Flynn wrote:
>Note to developers:I would pay real money for an Android MUA which
>worked like an MUA is supposed to

After testing the Ubuntu-Budgie live DVD my impression is that
operating systems for desktop computers will drop one feature after the
other. It already seems to be impossible to chose that a window is
always on top.

Since I'm a musician I need to use iOS instead of Android devices,
but I'm not aware of a usable MUA that runs on iOS.

Btw. Auria Pro, a DAW has got a menu and a tool bar and inside the app
it's possible to have several windows opened that could be moved. IOW
apps that are designed to get work done, work around the limitations of
the portable device's operating system.

Seemingly the majority of users, using their portable devices in the
middle of the street, have priorities other than getting work done.


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Re: Cellphone email (was: Re: old disk access

ubuntu-users mailing list
On Thu, 2019-05-16 at 15:52 +0200, Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users wrote:

> On Thu, 16 May 2019 13:50:41 +0100, Peter Flynn wrote:
> > Note to developers:I would pay real money for an Android MUA which
> > worked like an MUA is supposed to
>
> After testing the Ubuntu-Budgie live DVD my impression is that
> operating systems for desktop computers will drop one feature after the
> other. It already seems to be impossible to chose that a window is
> always on top.
>
> Since I'm a musician I need to use iOS instead of Android devices,
> but I'm not aware of a usable MUA that runs on iOS.
>
> Btw. Auria Pro, a DAW has got a menu and a tool bar and inside the app
> it's possible to have several windows opened that could be moved. IOW
> apps that are designed to get work done, work around the limitations of
> the portable device's operating system.
>
> Seemingly the majority of users, using their portable devices in the
> middle of the street, have priorities other than getting work done.

"operating system" is not the term that fits ;). However, the
environments do one step after the other into the wrong direction.



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