post-install media formats wizard

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post-install media formats wizard

Santiago Roza-2
On 2/21/06, Lee Revell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 2006-02-15 at 11:15 +0200, Aigars Mahinovs wrote:
> > This solution is as easy as it gets. And the message should rather be:
> > "Due to the cripled legal system of USA and Japan which allows
> > software patents, we have to ship Ubuntu that is crippled in its media
> > playing capabilities. If you do not live in these countries or have in
> > other way acquired rights to play media protected by software patents,
> > you can download media plugins from our site."
> > With a single button - "Uncripple media capabilities"
>
> I realize it's fashionable to bash the US, but would this really help
> users?  After all they will still consider it "crippled" if it does not
> include the Win32 codecs - which would be illegal to ship under ANY
> legal system.


what about this wording?
(feel free to correct the grammar and stuff like that)


We can proudly say that Free Software offers excellent support for the
most popular multimedia formats (like MP3, MPEG-4 "DivX", or even
encrypted DVDs).

But unluckily, certain restrictions (such as software patents) make it
illegal to distribute Ubuntu with such support, in certain countries
like the United States of America.

If you live in a country with such restrictions, please click
"Cancel".  You'll be able to play some restricted formats by
installing non-Free Software (like RealPlayer), or keep enjoying
content in Free formats (like Ogg Vorbis audio or Theora video).

If you live in a country without those restrictions, feel free to
install the necessary packages to unlock restricted formats, by
clicking on "OK".


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Re: post-install media formats wizard

Murray Cumming-5
Instead of baffling people with licensing, patenting, copyright, and
other incomprehensible blather, distros need to make it easy for people
to _pay_ for the things that they must pay for.

That means, when they try to play a file that needs a non-free codec,
you get taken to a web site that lets you get it for a small price, then
the file starts playing.

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Re: post-install media formats wizard

Santiago Roza-2
On 2/22/06, Murray Cumming <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Instead of baffling people with licensing, patenting, copyright, and
> other incomprehensible blather, distros need to make it easy for people
> to _pay_ for the things that they must pay for.


that doesn't make any sense.  first of all, they *don't* have to pay
for that unless they live in the usa.

and as a matter of fact, even if they live there they don't have to
"pay"; they just have to install non-free software like realplayer.

we could improve my proposed dialog by making it install realplayer
(or some other non-free package) on "cancel".

but anyway, when was my text "baffling"?  i only said patents ONCE...


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Re: post-install media formats wizard

Murray Cumming-5
On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 11:22 -0300, Santiago Roza wrote:
> On 2/22/06, Murray Cumming <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Instead of baffling people with licensing, patenting, copyright, and
> > other incomprehensible blather, distros need to make it easy for people
> > to _pay_ for the things that they must pay for.
>
>
> that doesn't make any sense.  first of all, they *don't* have to pay
> for that unless they live in the usa.

No mainstream distro is going to give you something that's illegal in
the U.S. just because you say that you are not in the U.S. It's a nasty
world and we have to live in it.

> and as a matter of fact, even if they live there they don't have to
> "pay"; they just have to install non-free software like realplayer.

OK, so you can put that on the website too.

But Realplayer should sell codecs for Totem, so people don't need to use
more than one player.

> we could improve my proposed dialog by making it install realplayer
> (or some other non-free package) on "cancel".
>
> but anyway, when was my text "baffling"?  i only said patents ONCE...

And there the baffling begins. People don't read stuff, let alone try to
understand it.

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Re: post-install media formats wizard

Santiago Roza-2
On 2/22/06, Murray Cumming <[hidden email]> wrote:


> No mainstream distro is going to give you something that's illegal in
> the U.S. just because you say that you are not in the U.S.

mepis and mandriva do that exactly, and they're top 5 in distrowatch.
ubuntu (and debian) have those packages in their official
repositories, they're just not enabled by default.

we weren't talking about including files in the ubuntu cd, but working
the mp3/etc apt-get magic automatically, with a post-install wizard.



> But Realplayer should sell codecs for Totem, so people don't need to use
> more than one player.

reaplayer doesn't need to *sell* codecs, i repeat most of them are
free/gratis (but not free/libre).

but we still can't link those binary codecs to totem, because totem is
gpl licensed, and the gpl doesn't allow linking to non-free packages
(unless the authors make an exception).



> And there the baffling begins. People don't read stuff, let alone try to
> understand it.

people read stuff, if they care enough.  they follow fairly complex
procedures when they need to crack a warez game, or install win32
codecs for their favorite movie.

i guess they will care when it's about mp3 and dvd, and my 10-line
proposed dialog was far simpler than those other things they do on a
daily basis.


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Re: post-install media formats wizard

Chris Wagner-2
In reply to this post by Murray Cumming-5
> > we could improve my proposed dialog by making it install realplayer
> > (or some other non-free package) on "cancel".
> >
> > but anyway, when was my text "baffling"?  i only said patents ONCE...
>
> And there the baffling begins. People don't read stuff, let alone try to
> understand it.

That baffling is nothing compared to what a typical Windows user is used
to (and I'm assuming our targeted audience, here, is primarily Windows
users).  Everytime one installs an application he's expected to read a
EULA far uglier than that "baffling".

I would say that it is quite important to at least make some note,
giving the user some small reason *why* he cannot have these things
working as is.  Many will not care; most will, at least in a
half-conscious manner, absorb these facts, as they continue to make the
download so they can play their stuff.

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Re: post-install media formats wizard

Jamie Jones-3
In reply to this post by Murray Cumming-5
On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 16:29 +0100, Murray Cumming wrote:

> On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 11:22 -0300, Santiago Roza wrote:
> > On 2/22/06, Murray Cumming <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Instead of baffling people with licensing, patenting, copyright, and
> > > other incomprehensible blather, distros need to make it easy for people
> > > to _pay_ for the things that they must pay for.
> >
> >
> > that doesn't make any sense.  first of all, they *don't* have to pay
> > for that unless they live in the usa.
>
> No mainstream distro is going to give you something that's illegal in
> the U.S. just because you say that you are not in the U.S. It's a nasty
> world and we have to live in it.
Now once again, explain to me *why* you seem to think laws that apply to
the U.S.A should apply to the rest of the world ? Mmm, perhaps we should
force our laws on you ? I very much doubt that you will like that. The
world is bigger then just the U.S.A, especially when you are dealing on
the Internet. The O.P was looking for a simple way to accomplish what we
*can already do* in Ubuntu. Technical solutions would be appreciated,
rather then flaming.

>
> > and as a matter of fact, even if they live there they don't have to
> > "pay"; they just have to install non-free software like realplayer.
>
> OK, so you can put that on the website too.
>
> But Realplayer should sell codecs for Totem, so people don't need to use
> more than one player.

What an excellent way to put yourself out of business. They goal is to
get the playback codecs as widely distributed as possible, so you can
sell encode enabled codecs to the content creators. perhaps they (and
other proprietary codec creators) should just implement a .so so we can
use the media player of our choice, rather like their .dll files on
Windows. Of course if they opened up the specification on how to play
back their files, it would be even better.

>
> > we could improve my proposed dialog by making it install realplayer
> > (or some other non-free package) on "cancel".
> >
> > but anyway, when was my text "baffling"?  i only said patents ONCE...
>
> And there the baffling begins. People don't read stuff, let alone try to
> understand it.

I have to disagree with you here, people do read, look at how many
sources of Ubuntu documentation have already been created. Clearly there
is a demand because people read them.


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Re: post-install media formats wizard

Joao Inacio
Personally, i think it is important  IF some codecs can be installed:
i don't live in the US so why shouldn't i install them?

but most of all, WHY they can't be installed in some cases.

this makes the difference between people saying "ubuntu can't play
<media format>" and "ubuntu isn't allowed to support <media format>
out of the box"

if you ask me, it makes all the difference...

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Re: post-install media formats wizard

Chris Wagner-2
On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 15:53 +0000, Joao Inacio wrote:

> Personally, i think it is important  IF some codecs can be installed:
> i don't live in the US so why shouldn't i install them?
>
> but most of all, WHY they can't be installed in some cases.
>
> this makes the difference between people saying "ubuntu can't play
> <media format>" and "ubuntu isn't allowed to support <media format>
> out of the box"
>
> if you ask me, it makes all the difference...

I agree.

Surely someone has already written a spec on this?  or had further
discussions outside of the devel list?

I've seen a similar thread at least once before, where it was suggested
that such a dialog was created to notify users about restricted formats
and guide them from there.

I am wondering what happened to the other discussions...  Did we give up
on this idea?  Is it that nobody has dedicated time to it?  Or is it
something that the higher-up's don't quite care for.

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Re: post-install media formats wizard

Murray Cumming-5
In reply to this post by Chris Wagner-2
On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 09:58 -0500, Chris Wagner wrote:

> > > we could improve my proposed dialog by making it install realplayer
> > > (or some other non-free package) on "cancel".
> > >
> > > but anyway, when was my text "baffling"?  i only said patents ONCE...
> >
> > And there the baffling begins. People don't read stuff, let alone try to
> > understand it.
>
> That baffling is nothing compared to what a typical Windows user is used
> to (and I'm assuming our targeted audience, here, is primarily Windows
> users).  Everytime one installs an application he's expected to read a
> EULA far uglier than that "baffling".

Which 99% of people ignore because it's irrelevant to their goal.

> I would say that it is quite important to at least make some note,
> giving the user some small reason *why* he cannot have these things
> working as is.

But he _can_ have it working, if we allow him to pay the small amounts
of money that it requires.

1. Baffling text that I don't understand + Buy Code + Movie Plays
is far better than
2. Baffling text + Movie Doesn't Play.

At least in 1. the text seems to be part of achieving something, but in
2. it's all about confusion and failure.

>   Many will not care; most will, at least in a
> half-conscious manner, absorb these facts, as they continue to make the
> download so they can play their stuff.

Yes, this is good stuff for a website.

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Re: post-install media formats wizard

Florian Zeitz-2
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Hash: SHA1

Murray Cumming schrieb:

> On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 09:58 -0500, Chris Wagner wrote:
>>>> we could improve my proposed dialog by making it install realplayer
>>>> (or some other non-free package) on "cancel".
>>>>
>>>> but anyway, when was my text "baffling"?  i only said patents ONCE...
>>> And there the baffling begins. People don't read stuff, let alone try to
>>> understand it.
>> That baffling is nothing compared to what a typical Windows user is used
>> to (and I'm assuming our targeted audience, here, is primarily Windows
>> users).  Everytime one installs an application he's expected to read a
>> EULA far uglier than that "baffling".
>
> Which 99% of people ignore because it's irrelevant to their goal.
>
>> I would say that it is quite important to at least make some note,
>> giving the user some small reason *why* he cannot have these things
>> working as is.
>
> But he _can_ have it working, if we allow him to pay the small amounts
> of money that it requires.
>
> 1. Baffling text that I don't understand + Buy Code + Movie Plays
> is far better than
> 2. Baffling text + Movie Doesn't Play.
>
> At least in 1. the text seems to be part of achieving something, but in
> 2. it's all about confusion and failure.
>
That would be true if this really were the two options, but they aren't.
The first one is not valid because there is no such code to buy (you may
prove me wrong, but I'd bet you won't be able to)
The second one is only valid in the US (and maybe some other small parts
of the earth), so everywhere outside US this option reads "Baffling text
+ Movie Plays"

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Re: post-install media formats wizard

Murray Cumming-5
In reply to this post by Santiago Roza-2
On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 11:41 -0300, Santiago Roza wrote:
> reaplayer doesn't need to *sell* codecs, i repeat most of them are
> free/gratis (but not free/libre).
>
> but we still can't link those binary codecs to totem, because totem is
> gpl licensed, and the gpl doesn't allow linking to non-free packages
> (unless the authors make an exception).

http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/totem/COPYING?rev=1.1&view=log

"
The Totem project hereby grant permission for non-gpl compatible GStreamer
plugins to be used and distributed together with GStreamer and Totem. This
permission are above and beyond the permissions granted by the GPL license
Totem is covered by.
"

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Re: post-install media formats wizard

Murray Cumming-5
In reply to this post by Jamie Jones-3
On Thu, 2006-02-23 at 02:14 +1100, Jamie Jones wrote:

> On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 16:29 +0100, Murray Cumming wrote:
> > On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 11:22 -0300, Santiago Roza wrote:
> > > On 2/22/06, Murray Cumming <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Instead of baffling people with licensing, patenting, copyright, and
> > > > other incomprehensible blather, distros need to make it easy for people
> > > > to _pay_ for the things that they must pay for.
> > >
> > >
> > > that doesn't make any sense.  first of all, they *don't* have to pay
> > > for that unless they live in the usa.
> >
> > No mainstream distro is going to give you something that's illegal in
> > the U.S. just because you say that you are not in the U.S. It's a nasty
> > world and we have to live in it.
>
> Now once again, explain to me *why* you seem to think laws that apply to
> the U.S.A should apply to the rest of the world ?

1. They don't really apply, but they exert force on companies that do
business worldwide. No company can distribute free software widely while
simultaneously claiming not to allow people in the U.S. to receive that
software. So they get prosecuted or sued in the U.S. if they do that
successfully. That's a concern of businesses even if it isn't your
personal concern, though it would quickly become your concern if you
distributed the stuff widely.

2. If you don't like it, you can use a different distro, so nobody is
forcing you.

>  Mmm, perhaps we should
> force our laws on you ?

I don't live in the U.S.

[snip]

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Re: post-install media formats wizard

Florian Zeitz-2
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Murray Cumming schrieb:

> On Thu, 2006-02-23 at 02:14 +1100, Jamie Jones wrote:
>> On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 16:29 +0100, Murray Cumming wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 11:22 -0300, Santiago Roza wrote:
>>>> On 2/22/06, Murray Cumming <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Instead of baffling people with licensing, patenting, copyright, and
>>>>> other incomprehensible blather, distros need to make it easy for people
>>>>> to _pay_ for the things that they must pay for.
>>>>
>>>> that doesn't make any sense.  first of all, they *don't* have to pay
>>>> for that unless they live in the usa.
>>> No mainstream distro is going to give you something that's illegal in
>>> the U.S. just because you say that you are not in the U.S. It's a nasty
>>> world and we have to live in it.
>> Now once again, explain to me *why* you seem to think laws that apply to
>> the U.S.A should apply to the rest of the world ?
>
> 1. They don't really apply, but they exert force on companies that do
> business worldwide. No company can distribute free software widely while
> simultaneously claiming not to allow people in the U.S. to receive that
> software. So they get prosecuted or sued in the U.S. if they do that
> successfully. That's a concern of businesses even if it isn't your
> personal concern, though it would quickly become your concern if you
> distributed the stuff widely.
>
Did you ever notice that ubuntu IS distributed world wide on the internet?

> 2. If you don't like it, you can use a different distro, so nobody is
> forcing you.
>
So why do you want to force this on ubuntu, couldn't ubuntu just be that
different distro.

>>  Mmm, perhaps we should
>> force our laws on you ?
>
> I don't live in the U.S.
>
So you basically like putting restrictions on you that you don't have to
take, sound masochistic.
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Re: post-install media formats wizard

Dane Mutters
In reply to this post by Chris Wagner-2
On Wednesday 22 February 2006 08:10 am, Chris Wagner wrote:

> I agree.
>
> Surely someone has already written a spec on this?  or had further
> discussions outside of the devel list?
>
> I've seen a similar thread at least once before, where it was suggested
> that such a dialog was created to notify users about restricted formats
> and guide them from there.
>
> I am wondering what happened to the other discussions...  Did we give up
> on this idea?  Is it that nobody has dedicated time to it?  Or is it
> something that the higher-up's don't quite care for.

        This seems to be a re-titled discussion of "Dapper installation notes/stuff
that needs fixing".  That discussion had deviated from a report on what
worked and didn't work on an install of a daily build to a conversation on
media players and non-free formats.  The new title is more fitting (thanks to
whoever changed it).  

        --Dane

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Re: post-install media formats wizard

andrewski
In reply to this post by Florian Zeitz-2
On 2/22/06, Florian Zeitz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Murray Cumming schrieb:
> > On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 09:58 -0500, Chris Wagner wrote:
> >>>> we could improve my proposed dialog by making it install realplayer
> >>>> (or some other non-free package) on "cancel".
> >>>>
> >>>> but anyway, when was my text "baffling"?  i only said patents ONCE...
> >>> And there the baffling begins. People don't read stuff, let alone try to
> >>> understand it.
> >> That baffling is nothing compared to what a typical Windows user is used
> >> to (and I'm assuming our targeted audience, here, is primarily Windows
> >> users).  Everytime one installs an application he's expected to read a
> >> EULA far uglier than that "baffling".
> >
> > Which 99% of people ignore because it's irrelevant to their goal.
> >
> >> I would say that it is quite important to at least make some note,
> >> giving the user some small reason *why* he cannot have these things
> >> working as is.
> >
> > But he _can_ have it working, if we allow him to pay the small amounts
> > of money that it requires.
> >
> > 1. Baffling text that I don't understand + Buy Code + Movie Plays
> > is far better than
> > 2. Baffling text + Movie Doesn't Play.
> >
> > At least in 1. the text seems to be part of achieving something, but in
> > 2. it's all about confusion and failure.
> >
> That would be true if this really were the two options, but they aren't.
> The first one is not valid because there is no such code to buy (you may
> prove me wrong, but I'd bet you won't be able to)
> The second one is only valid in the US (and maybe some other small parts
> of the earth), so everywhere outside US this option reads "Baffling text
> + Movie Plays"
Isn't the location set when Ubuntu is installed?  I'm not sure if
that'd fly, but if a little post-install program could figure out the
installed location, it could figure out what message (if any) to show.
 Ultimately, you'd be relying on the installing user's honesty, but
that puts the onus of legality on the person and not the system, which
I think is how things are at the moment, no?

Just thinking off the cuff here; I'm kinda jumping in, but I could
work up something in PyGTK+ if this could really be useful.

Cheers,
Andrew


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Re: post-install media formats wizard

Dane Mutters
In reply to this post by Murray Cumming-5
On Wednesday 22 February 2006 09:18 am, Murray Cumming wrote:

> On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 11:41 -0300, Santiago Roza wrote:
> > reaplayer doesn't need to *sell* codecs, i repeat most of them are
> > free/gratis (but not free/libre).
> >
> > but we still can't link those binary codecs to totem, because totem is
> > gpl licensed, and the gpl doesn't allow linking to non-free packages
> > (unless the authors make an exception).
>
> http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/totem/COPYING?rev=1.1&view=log
>
> "
> The Totem project hereby grant permission for non-gpl compatible GStreamer
> plugins to be used and distributed together with GStreamer and Totem. This
> permission are above and beyond the permissions granted by the GPL license
> Totem is covered by.
> "

        That seems pretty clear to me.  I think that this would go a LONG way to
"un-breaking" Totem in the minds of the average, "just make my stuff play!"
user.

        Are there any lawyers on this list?  Does anybody know of one who would like
to be?

        I think that we're kind-of "kicking a dead horse" until we get somebody in
here who has some professional knowledge of copyright and patent law.  
Personally, I strongly agree that we need to have at least an option to
install some non-free codecs on Ubuntu without having to go through
Synaptic/apt-get and universe/multiverse to get them.  It's just too
complicated for the average user.  It's too complicated for many Linux/power
users.  Unfortunately, until we get a lawyer in here to validate/throw out
some of our ideas, we really shouldn't be arguing over what text to include
(although ideas are always welcome, IMHO).

        --Dane

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Re: post-install media formats wizard

Santiago Roza-2
On 2/22/06, Dane Mutters <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Unfortunately, until we get a lawyer in here to validate/throw out
> some of our ideas, we really shouldn't be arguing over what text to include.


i am not a lawyer, but as a tech journalist specialized in free
software, i try to be well informed on these issues.  so i'd like to
think i'm doing more than just throwing wild guesses here.


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Santiago Roza
Departamento I+D - Thymbra
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Re: post-install media formats wizard

Lee Revell
In reply to this post by Santiago Roza-2
On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 10:39 -0300, Santiago Roza wrote:
> We can proudly say that Free Software offers excellent support for the
> most popular multimedia formats (like MP3, MPEG-4 "DivX", or even
> encrypted DVDs).
>
> But unluckily, certain restrictions (such as software patents) make it
> illegal to distribute Ubuntu with such support, in certain countries
> like the United States of America.

See, it's still USA-bashing.  Why do you only mention one of the
countries with software patents?

Lee


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Re: post-install media formats wizard

Dane Mutters
In reply to this post by Santiago Roza-2
On Wednesday 22 February 2006 10:09 am, Santiago Roza wrote:
> On 2/22/06, Dane Mutters <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Unfortunately, until we get a lawyer in here to validate/throw out
> > some of our ideas, we really shouldn't be arguing over what text to
> > include.
>
> i am not a lawyer, but as a tech journalist specialized in free
> software, i try to be well informed on these issues.  so i'd like to
> think i'm doing more than just throwing wild guesses here.

        Either way, I'm grateful for your opinion.  I want to clarify that I don't
mean to belittle anybody's ideas or their knowledge.  I think this discussion
is and has been fruitful; I would, however, like to have a lawyer look at it
and tell us if we're on track.

        --Dane

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