tabs for the new help site

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tabs for the new help site

Matthew East
Hello all,

As most of you know, we've implemented some tabs for the new help
website[1].

[1] http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06 

However, Henrik mentioned this evening that they are too big (in terms
of length), and I agree. The alternative would be to remove the
codenames (making them 5.10, 6.06 LTS, Community Docs). This would also
be consistent with the decision which appears to have been taken
recently to remove all reference to codenames from the distribution[2]

[2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CodeNamesToVersionNumbers

What do people think? Corey is concerned that people may not understand
the version number, although on the other hand Venkat mentioned that his
experience is that people looking for help are familiar with the version
numbers rather than codenames, and I have to say that my (limited)
experience is similar.

If we can get some kind of consensus on this quickly, it would be good.

Matt
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Re: tabs for the new help site

Jordan Mantha
* Matthew East <[hidden email]> [2006-05-23 23:03:28]:

> Hello all,
>
> As most of you know, we've implemented some tabs for the new help
> website[1].
>
> [1] http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06 
>
> However, Henrik mentioned this evening that they are too big (in terms
> of length), and I agree. The alternative would be to remove the
> codenames (making them 5.10, 6.06 LTS, Community Docs). This would also
> be consistent with the decision which appears to have been taken
> recently to remove all reference to codenames from the distribution[2]

To be honest, the width looks fine to me, but I'd have to defer to the
web professionals as to what too wide would be for most people.

> [2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CodeNamesToVersionNumbers
>
> What do people think? Corey is concerned that people may not understand
> the version number, although on the other hand Venkat mentioned that his
> experience is that people looking for help are familiar with the version
> numbers rather than codenames, and I have to say that my (limited)
> experience is similar.

I'm of the opinion that most people, especially new users, will be very
familiar with the version numbers. I'm seeing them all over the place
now. A few months ago it was a different situation. And after all, [1]
already uses the version number scheme.

> If we can get some kind of consensus on this quickly, it would be good.

Us have a quick consensus? Never! ;-)

-Jordan

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Re: tabs for the new help site

Venkat Raghavan V.C.
> > However, Henrik mentioned this evening that they are too big (in terms
> > of length), and I agree. The alternative would be to remove the
> > codenames (making them 5.10, 6.06 LTS, Community Docs). This would also
> > be consistent with the decision which appears to have been taken
> > recently to remove all reference to codenames from the distribution[2]
>
> To be honest, the width looks fine to me, but I'd have to defer to the
> web professionals as to what too wide would be for most people.

I thought the current tabs are good until i tried this:

| 5.10 (Breezy Badger) | 6.06 (Dapper Drake) | Community Docs |

Next version: (Breezy will still be supported)
| 5.10 (Breezy Badger) | 6.06 (Dapper Drake) | 6.xx (Edgy Eft) |
Community Docs |

Next +1 Version:
| Older Versions | 6.06 Dapper Drake | 6.xx Edgy Eft | 7.xx Flashy
Fish | Community Docs |

You get the idea: Dapper is going to be around for a long long time,
and we will definitely run out of space, so we might as well be
prudent now.

> What do people think? Corey is concerned that people may not understand
> the version number, although on the other hand Venkat mentioned that his
> experience is that people looking for help are familiar with the version
> numbers rather than codenames, and I have to say that my (limited)
> experience is similar.
Most of the people who download the iso/get the shipit know the
version number (http://www.ubuntu.com/download) , so I doubt that this
will be an issue.


> Us have a quick consensus? Never! ;-)
Amen!

Venkat

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Re: tabs for the new help site

Matthew Paul Thomas-2
In reply to this post by Matthew East
On May 24, 2006, at 10:03 AM, Matthew East wrote:
> ...
> As most of you know, we've implemented some tabs for the new help
> website[1].
>
> [1] http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06
> ...

Many, if not most, help pages will be relevant for multiple Ubuntu
versions. So I think having top-level tabs for the versions is
inappropriate.

Tabs would make sense for doc.ubuntu.com, though, being a mirror of the
help actually shipped with each release. They could use version numbers
for already-released versions, and the codename for the version in
development.

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Re: tabs for the new help site

Milo Casagrande
In reply to this post by Matthew East

--- Matthew East <[hidden email]> ha scritto:

> Hello all,
>
> As most of you know, we've implemented some tabs for
> the new help
> website[1].
>
> [1] http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06 
>
> However, Henrik mentioned this evening that they are
> too big (in terms
> of length), and I agree. The alternative would be to
> remove the
> codenames (making them 5.10, 6.06 LTS, Community
> Docs). This would also
> be consistent with the decision which appears to
> have been taken
> recently to remove all reference to codenames from
> the distribution[2]
>
> [2]
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CodeNamesToVersionNumbers
>
> What do people think? Corey is concerned that people
> may not understand
> the version number, although on the other hand
> Venkat mentioned that his
> experience is that people looking for help are
> familiar with the version
> numbers rather than codenames, and I have to say
> that my (limited)
> experience is similar.
>
> If we can get some kind of consensus on this
> quickly, it would be good.

I have the same experience, I refer to Ubuntu with
version number.

Isn't it possible to have the version number in the
tab and when mouse is over have the name appear?


Milo Casagrande  <[hidden email]>
FSF Member #3788 <www.fsf.org>


       

       
               
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Re: tabs for the new help site

Matthew East
In reply to this post by Matthew Paul Thomas-2
On Wed, 2006-05-24 at 14:09 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> On May 24, 2006, at 10:03 AM, Matthew East wrote:
> > ...
> > As most of you know, we've implemented some tabs for the new help
> > website[1].
> >
> > [1] http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06
> > ...
>
> Many, if not most, help pages will be relevant for multiple Ubuntu
> versions. So I think having top-level tabs for the versions is
> inappropriate.
You might have a point, but at the moment the help website is organised
like this: 5.10 docs, 6.06 docs, wiki docs. We can't change that basic
structure now because the 6.06 webpage has been localised, and it will
be a shame to waste that. So I think we have to work with the structure
that is there for now.

Right now the url structure is done by version number, and so far on
this thread most people seem to think that the version number is quite
an easy way to identify releases, so I think changing the tabs makes
sense. Let's see what anyone else thinks.

> Tabs would make sense for doc.ubuntu.com, though, being a mirror of the
> help actually shipped with each release. They could use version numbers
> for already-released versions, and the codename for the version in
> development.

doc.ubuntu.com doesn't have stable releases, only our in development
docs.

Matt
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Re: tabs for the new help site

Jeff Schering
In reply to this post by Matthew East
On 5/23/06, Matthew East <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> As most of you know, we've implemented some tabs for the new help
> website[1].
>
> [1] http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06
>

| 5.10 | 6.06 | 6.10 | 7.04 | etc etc works for me, but maybe have the
"Ubuntu Documentation" heading changed to "Documentation for Ubuntu
6.06 LTS (Dapper Drake)" or some such. "Ubuntu Documentation" is
already in the headline graphic.

Then maybe start out with something like "This documentation is for
the Ubuntu 6.06 LTS release. Documentation for earlier releases is
available by clicking on the tabs. For a list of Ubuntu releases and
the release numbering scheme, see http://help.ubuntu.com/whatever" Not
exactly that; it's kind of clunky. But something that gives the same
info would be good.

If a user doesn't know what all those numbers are, then he can figure
it out pretty quickly from the heading. If he still doesn't know, the
answer is only one tab-click away. If, after that, he still can't
figure it out, then he needs more help than we can give him :)

I don't think we need the LTS in the tab for 6.06 because there is
only LTS; no STS or MTS or whatever.

Cheers,
Jeff

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Re: tabs for the new help site

Matthew East
On Wed, 2006-05-24 at 11:18 -0700, Jeff Schering wrote:

> On 5/23/06, Matthew East <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > As most of you know, we've implemented some tabs for the new help
> > website[1].
> >
> > [1] http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06
> >
>
> | 5.10 | 6.06 | 6.10 | 7.04 | etc etc works for me
This appears to be the general consensus, so I think we should go with
it.

> but maybe have the
> "Ubuntu Documentation" heading changed to "Documentation for Ubuntu
> 6.06 LTS (Dapper Drake)" or some such. "Ubuntu Documentation" is
> already in the headline graphic.
>
> Then maybe start out with something like "This documentation is for
> the Ubuntu 6.06 LTS release. Documentation for earlier releases is
> available by clicking on the tabs.

Ok, good idea. I've done something like this with the 5.10 section that
I've been preparing. I've put it up here: http://help.ubuntu.com/5.10/

Feedback is welcome.

> I don't think we need the LTS in the tab for 6.06 because there is
> only LTS; no STS or MTS or whatever.

Not sure. I tend to think of it as part of the version number - what do
others think about this?

Matt
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Re: tabs for the new help site

Matt Galvin
On 5/24/06, Matthew East <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-05-24 at 11:18 -0700, Jeff Schering wrote:

[snip]

> > | 5.10 | 6.06 | 6.10 | 7.04 | etc etc works for me
>
> This appears to be the general consensus, so I think we should go with
> it.

+1

[snip]

> Ok, good idea. I've done something like this with the 5.10 section that
> I've been preparing. I've put it up here: http://help.ubuntu.com/5.10/
>
> Feedback is welcome.

This looks good to me as well.

> > I don't think we need the LTS in the tab for 6.06 because there is
> > only LTS; no STS or MTS or whatever.
>
> Not sure. I tend to think of it as part of the version number - what do
> others think about this?

The devs seem to have gone through a bit of trouble to change all the
version numbers everywhere to include LTS, I would think we should
also use it (at very least for consistency).

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Re: tabs for the new help site

Luzius Thöny
In reply to this post by Matthew East
Matthew East wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> As most of you know, we've implemented some tabs for the new help
> website[1].
>
> [1] http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06 
>
> However, Henrik mentioned this evening that they are too big (in terms
> of length), and I agree. The alternative would be to remove the
> codenames (making them 5.10, 6.06 LTS, Community Docs). This would also
> be consistent with the decision which appears to have been taken
> recently to remove all reference to codenames from the distribution[2]
>
> [2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CodeNamesToVersionNumbers
>
> What do people think? Corey is concerned that people may not understand
> the version number, although on the other hand Venkat mentioned that his
> experience is that people looking for help are familiar with the version
> numbers rather than codenames, and I have to say that my (limited)
> experience is similar.
>
> If we can get some kind of consensus on this quickly, it would be good.
>
> Matt
>  
hi,

may I ask if Xubuntu Desktop Guide is going to be on
[http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06] as well?
 
~luzi

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xubuntu desktop guide

Matthew East
On Thu, 2006-05-25 at 15:01 +0200, Luzi Thoeny wrote:
> may I ask if Xubuntu Desktop Guide is going to be on
> [http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06] as well?

Hi Luzi,

I was thinking about this last night too - obviously it should be there.
The trouble is that the translated index pages do not contain links to
it. What we can do is add it to the site, and include it in the English
index, then update the translated pages later when the translators have
had a chance to catch up. Does that sound sensible?

(By the way, I've noticed you've made some changes to the English, we'll
need to update the translation template and inform the translators of
these changes too).

I haven't had a chance to look at the guide myself. Have any others?
What sort of shape is it in?

Matt
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Re: tabs for the new help site

Matthew Paul Thomas-2
In reply to this post by Matthew East
On May 24, 2006, at 8:35 PM, Matthew East wrote:

>
> On Wed, 2006-05-24 at 14:09 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> ...
>> Many, if not most, help pages will be relevant for multiple Ubuntu
>> versions. So I think having top-level tabs for the versions is
>> inappropriate.
>
> You might have a point, but at the moment the help website is
> organised like this: 5.10 docs, 6.06 docs, wiki docs. We can't change
> that basic structure now because the 6.06 webpage has been localised,
> and it will be a shame to waste that. So I think we have to work with
> the structure that is there for now.
> ...

I'm not disputing that there should be a section about things that are
*only* to do with a particular release, or that its front page should
be localized; they're both good things. I was talking about the
top-level navigation, which leaves no obvious place for pages like "How
do I upgrade from Ubuntu 5.04 to 6.06?", and (once Edgy is released)
"Which Ubuntu release is right for me?".

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Re: xubuntu desktop guide

Luzius Thöny
In reply to this post by Matthew East
Matthew East wrote:

> On Thu, 2006-05-25 at 15:01 +0200, Luzi Thoeny wrote:
>  
>> may I ask if Xubuntu Desktop Guide is going to be on
>> [http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06] as well?
>>    
>
> Hi Luzi,
>
> I was thinking about this last night too - obviously it should be there.
> The trouble is that the translated index pages do not contain links to
> it. What we can do is add it to the site, and include it in the English
> index, then update the translated pages later when the translators have
> had a chance to catch up. Does that sound sensible?
>
>  
This seems a good idea, as far as I can tell.
> (By the way, I've noticed you've made some changes to the English, we'll
> need to update the translation template and inform the translators of
> these changes too).
>
>  
True. I had to fix some outdated stuff. Very minor, though.
> I haven't had a chance to look at the guide myself. Have any others?
> What sort of shape is it in?
>
>  
It's not as complete or polished as the K/Ubuntu syblings. It's up to
others to judge, though.
> Matt
>  
luzi

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Re: xubuntu desktop guide

Matthew East
Hi Luzi,

On Thu, 2006-05-25 at 16:26 +0200, Luzi Thoeny wrote:

> Matthew East wrote:
> > On Thu, 2006-05-25 at 15:01 +0200, Luzi Thoeny wrote:
> >  
> >> may I ask if Xubuntu Desktop Guide is going to be on
> >> [http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06] as well?
> >>    
> >
> > I was thinking about this last night too - obviously it should be there.
> > The trouble is that the translated index pages do not contain links to
> > it. What we can do is add it to the site, and include it in the English
> > index, then update the translated pages later when the translators have
> > had a chance to catch up. Does that sound sensible?
> >
> >  
> This seems a good idea, as far as I can tell.
I've added the relevant stuff in my local copy and it looks great. I had
a read through too, very nice!

But... you've included some screenshots using the <graphic> element.
These show up extremely large when making pdfs (and go off the page),
and having had a quick dig around [1] I've come to the conclusion that
it is unlikely to be possible to resize these.

http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/Graphics.html

I think that if you use <mediaobject> instead, it may be possible to
resize them appropriately for the PDF files by setting the scaling ratio
and then ignoring that in the html stylesheets [2].

http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/ImageSizing.html

It's up to you if you want to make that change. If not, we can either
(a) just put HTML on the website and not PDF (that would be a shame
because if we make PDFs we can publish them on lulu), or (b) leave those
images out.

Matt
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Re: tabs for the new help site

Matthew East
In reply to this post by Matthew Paul Thomas-2
On Fri, 2006-05-26 at 02:06 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> On May 24, 2006, at 8:35 PM, Matthew East wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 2006-05-24 at 14:09 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> > ...
> >> Many, if not most, help pages will be relevant for multiple Ubuntu
> >> versions. So I think having top-level tabs for the versions is
> >> inappropriate.
> >
> > You might have a point, but at the moment the help website is
> > organised like this: 5.10 docs, 6.06 docs, wiki docs. We can't change
> > that basic structure now because the 6.06 webpage has been localised,
> > and it will be a shame to waste that. So I think we have to work with
> > the structure that is there for now.
> > ...
>
> I'm not disputing that there should be a section about things that are
> *only* to do with a particular release, or that its front page should
> be localized; they're both good things. I was talking about the
> top-level navigation, which leaves no obvious place for pages like "How
> do I upgrade from Ubuntu 5.04 to 6.06?", and (once Edgy is released)
> "Which Ubuntu release is right for me?".
Well, currently we don't have any of those pages. However, I agree that
distinguishing between community-driven wiki docs and 5.10/6.06 is not a
clear distinction to draw.

So how about this alternative - | Stable docs | Community docs |

("Stable docs" would then point to the current version, and contain
links to previous versions).

I don't particularly like the word "Stable", but it was the only word I
could think of to describe the difference. What do people think of this
idea?

Matt
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Re: tabs for the new help site

ompaul
Matthew East wrote:

>Well, currently we don't have any of those pages. However, I agree that
>distinguishing between community-driven wiki docs and 5.10/6.06 is not a
>clear distinction to draw.
>
>So how about this alternative - | Stable docs | Community docs |
>
>("Stable docs" would then point to the current version, and contain
>links to previous versions).
>  
>
Release Documentation | Wiki Documentation

I think that shorting the word to docs does not serve the purpose well.
It indicates a level of blessing to the documentation.

My reasoning is:
Wiki is ongoing work in progress,
Release is to use Matthew's word Stable. ;-)

Regards,
Paul

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Re: tabs for the new help site

Matthew Paul Thomas-2
In reply to this post by Matthew East
On May 26, 2006, at 7:22 PM, Matthew East wrote:

> ...
> So how about this alternative - | Stable docs | Community docs |
>
> ("Stable docs" would then point to the current version, and contain
> links to previous versions).
>
> I don't particularly like the word "Stable", but it was the only word
> I could think of to describe the difference. What do people think of
> this idea?
> ...

I like it. :-)

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Re: tabs for the new help site

Matthew East
On Fri, 2006-05-26 at 22:38 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> On May 26, 2006, at 7:22 PM, Matthew East wrote:
> > ...
> > So how about this alternative - | Stable docs | Community docs |
> >
> > ("Stable docs" would then point to the current version, and contain
> > links to previous versions).
> >
> > I don't particularly like the word "Stable", but it was the only word
> > I could think of to describe the difference. What do people think of
> > this idea?
> > ...
>
> I like it. :-)
I ought to record that Corey and Brian both didn't like this idea :) One
of the point Brian made that I thought was particularly valid is that in
terms of stable docs, we are going to have a number of releases
supported at the same time, and a quick way to navigate between them is
going to be needed.

I think that it is probably possible to distinguish between releases in
the body of the page (although obviously not as clearly as by using
tabs), but let's see what everyone else thinks.

Matt
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Re: tabs for the new help site

ompaul
Matthew East wrote:

>On Fri, 2006-05-26 at 22:38 +1200, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
>  
>
>>On May 26, 2006, at 7:22 PM, Matthew East wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>...
>>>So how about this alternative - | Stable docs | Community docs |
>>>
>>>("Stable docs" would then point to the current version, and contain
>>>links to previous versions).
>>>
>>>I don't particularly like the word "Stable", but it was the only word
>>>I could think of to describe the difference. What do people think of
>>>this idea?
>>>...
>>>      
>>>
>>I like it. :-)
>>    
>>
>
>I ought to record that Corey and Brian both didn't like this idea :) One
>of the point Brian made that I thought was particularly valid is that in
>terms of stable docs, we are going to have a number of releases
>supported at the same time, and a quick way to navigate between them is
>going to be needed.
>
>I think that it is probably possible to distinguish between releases in
>the body of the page (although obviously not as clearly as by using
>tabs), but let's see what everyone else thinks.
>
>Matt
>  
>
It is a valid point, however when I think in terms of a menu structure,
I Imagine each indentation to be a set of tabs:

Ubuntu Documentation:
   
        5.10   (Breezy Badger)    
                                             Release Documentation (5.10)
                                             Wiki Documentation (5.10)

       6.06   (Dapper Drake)
                                            Release Documentation (6.06)
                                            Wiki Documentation (6.06)

        X.XX   (Edgy Eft)
                                             Release Documentation (Devel)
                                             Wiki Documentation (Devel)

        Devel+1
                                             Release Documentation (Devel+1)
                                             Wiki Documentation (Devel+1)

So you always know where you are, it also allows other tabs such as
"Specs" to be added.

Regards,

Paul

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Re: xubuntu desktop guide

Luzius Thöny
In reply to this post by Matthew East
Matthew East wrote:

> On Thu, 2006-05-25 at 20:14 +0200, Luzi Thoeny wrote:
>  
>> After a first glimpse I think that using <mediaobjects> would be good. I
>> need to look into this when I've got more time.
>>    
>
> Ok, let me know if you can sort this out, and we'll make pdfs too.
>
>  
>> I've just tried to build the pdf for myself and couldn't do it, because
>> in this file...:
>> libs/pdf/ubuntu-pdf.xsl
>>
>> ...there's this unknown reference:
>> <xsl:import href="/home/matt/tmp/docbook-xsl-snapshot/fo/docbook.xsl"/>
>>    
>
> Yes, building the pdfs is quite complex, and among other things you'll
> need to change that to the value of your docbook-xsl snapshot
> installation. I will put some online for you to look at
> (http://mdke.org/tmp/xubuntu ). Apart from the screenshots they look
> great.
>
> Matt
>  
Hi Matt,

Today I installed Java, FOP and JIMI, and I can now build the PDFs! And
what's even better, when I did it, the PNGs were scaled to the
appropriate width automatically... I have no clue why that happened, but
it did. Check it here:

http://www.doink.ch/xubuntu-doc/desktopguide.pdf

Maybe I'm using a different version of FOP or something? Mine is FOP 0.20.5

~luzi

BTW: Thanks for putting the example online for me!

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