ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair?

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ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair?

Ricardo Pérez López-2
Hi!

Sorry for the noise, but why ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair? I
don't think a refactoring tool for python is needed in any Ubuntu
installation. Is there a rationale for that?

Thanks a lot.



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Re: ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair?

Sylvain Defresne-2
Le lundi 03 avril 2006 à 20:58 +0200, Ricardo Pérez López a écrit :
> Hi!
>
> Sorry for the noise, but why ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair? I
> don't think a refactoring tool for python is needed in any Ubuntu
> installation. Is there a rationale for that?

This is explained in this bug report :
https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-meta/+bug/12395
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Re: ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair?

Matt Zimmerman-2
In reply to this post by Ricardo Pérez López-2
On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 08:58:31PM +0200, Ricardo Pérez López wrote:
> Sorry for the noise, but why ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair? I
> don't think a refactoring tool for python is needed in any Ubuntu
> installation. Is there a rationale for that?

(assuming you mean "every" rather than "any" above)

The goal of ubuntu-desktop isn't to collect packages which are needed on
pracitcally every Ubuntu system (that's more ubuntu-minimal).  Its goal is
to provide a desktop system which is useful to many types of users.  One of
these types of users is a Python developer, or a user who is learning to
program in Python.

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Re: ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair?

Ricardo Pérez López-2
El lun, 03-04-2006 a las 12:53 -0700, Matt Zimmerman escribió:
> On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 08:58:31PM +0200, Ricardo Pérez López wrote:
> > Sorry for the noise, but why ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair? I
> > don't think a refactoring tool for python is needed in any Ubuntu
> > installation. Is there a rationale for that?
>
> (assuming you mean "every" rather than "any" above)

Sorry about my horrible English :( "any" above means that not all (maybe
some) Ubuntu installations needs Python developing tools.

> The goal of ubuntu-desktop isn't to collect packages which are needed on
> pracitcally every Ubuntu system (that's more ubuntu-minimal).  Its goal is
> to provide a desktop system which is useful to many types of users.  One of
> these types of users is a Python developer, or a user who is learning to
> program in Python.

Thanks a lot for the logical explanation. I agree with it.

Ricardo.



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Re: ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair?

Sandis Neilands
In reply to this post by Matt Zimmerman-2
Hello Matt!

On 4/3/06, Matt Zimmerman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The goal of ubuntu-desktop isn't to collect packages which are needed on
> pracitcally every Ubuntu system (that's more ubuntu-minimal).  Its goal is
> to provide a desktop system which is useful to many types of users.  One of
> these types of users is a Python developer, or a user who is learning to
> program in Python.

While I'm downloading flight 6...

Shouldn't *-desktop depend on build-essential too? As far as I know c
and c++ are far more popular languages in schools and universities
than python. I'm almost sure that even pascal is more used than python
in those places. Or perhaps we should make metapackage for each
language (python-develop, c-develop, ruby-develop, etc)?

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Re: ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair?

Javier Monteagudo
On 4/4/06, Sandis Neilands <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello Matt!
>
> On 4/3/06, Matt Zimmerman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > The goal of ubuntu-desktop isn't to collect packages which are needed on
> > pracitcally every Ubuntu system (that's more ubuntu-minimal).  Its goal is
> > to provide a desktop system which is useful to many types of users.  One of
> > these types of users is a Python developer, or a user who is learning to
> > program in Python.
>
> While I'm downloading flight 6...
>
> Shouldn't *-desktop depend on build-essential too? As far as I know c
> and c++ are far more popular languages in schools and universities
> than python. I'm almost sure that even pascal is more used than python
> in those places. Or perhaps we should make metapackage for each
> language (python-develop, c-develop, ruby-develop, etc)?
>
> --
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>
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>
>
>

Ubuntu promotes python as a RAD programming plataform. Build essential
was asked before. It's in main, but it's not included in the default
install. I think it's included in the cd, so you can always apt-get
it.

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Re: ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair?

andrewski
In reply to this post by Sandis Neilands
On 4/4/06, Sandis Neilands <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Or perhaps we should make metapackage for each
> language (python-develop, c-develop, ruby-develop, etc)?

Isn't this what build-essential is for, at least for C?

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Re: ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair?

Matt Zimmerman-2
In reply to this post by Sandis Neilands
On Tue, Apr 04, 2006 at 08:26:50AM +0300, Sandis Neilands wrote:
> Shouldn't *-desktop depend on build-essential too? As far as I know c
> and c++ are far more popular languages in schools and universities
> than python. I'm almost sure that even pascal is more used than python
> in those places. Or perhaps we should make metapackage for each
> language (python-develop, c-develop, ruby-develop, etc)?

This question has been rehashed on this list several times; please check the
list archives.

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Re: ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair?

Travis Watkins
In reply to this post by andrewski
On 4/4/06, Andrew Conkling <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Isn't this what build-essential is for, at least for C?

Actually it's the packages you know a buildd will have so you don't
have to make your package builddep on them.

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Re: ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair?

John Moser-2
In reply to this post by Matt Zimmerman-2
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



Matt Zimmerman wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 08:58:31PM +0200, Ricardo Pérez López wrote:
>> Sorry for the noise, but why ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair? I
>> don't think a refactoring tool for python is needed in any Ubuntu
>> installation. Is there a rationale for that?
>
> (assuming you mean "every" rather than "any" above)
>
> The goal of ubuntu-desktop isn't to collect packages which are needed on
> pracitcally every Ubuntu system (that's more ubuntu-minimal).  Its goal is
> to provide a desktop system which is useful to many types of users.  One of
> these types of users is a Python developer, or a user who is learning to
> program in Python.

Read:  A python developer, or a user who is learning to program in
Python.  If you are interested in C, C++, Ruby, Perl, PHP, TCL/TK, Java,
C#, or Objective-C, GO HOME WE DON'T WANT YOU!

>

- --
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    Creative brains are a valuable, limited resource. They shouldn't be
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    new problems waiting out there.
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Re: ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair?

John Moser-2
In reply to this post by Javier Monteagudo
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Javier wrote:

> On 4/4/06, Sandis Neilands <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hello Matt!
>>
>> On 4/3/06, Matt Zimmerman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> The goal of ubuntu-desktop isn't to collect packages which are needed on
>>> pracitcally every Ubuntu system (that's more ubuntu-minimal).  Its goal is
>>> to provide a desktop system which is useful to many types of users.  One of
>>> these types of users is a Python developer, or a user who is learning to
>>> program in Python.
>> While I'm downloading flight 6...
>>
>> Shouldn't *-desktop depend on build-essential too? As far as I know c
>> and c++ are far more popular languages in schools and universities
>> than python. I'm almost sure that even pascal is more used than python
>> in those places. Or perhaps we should make metapackage for each
>> language (python-develop, c-develop, ruby-develop, etc)?
>>
>> --
>> Sandis
>>
>> --
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>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Ubuntu promotes python as a RAD programming plataform. Build essential

http://www.ubuntu.com/?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=python&fullsearch=Search

Promotes as in sticks it there so when it comes up in conversation it's
just conveniently there so that the devs can do market shaping.  It's
not a marketed feature, they don't want to draw too much attention to
the fact that this stuff is all there, hence why it's not majorly
advertised anywhere.

If they really wanted to promote it they should mention Python directly
on their main page.  Here is the major blurb:

=========================================
Ubuntu is a complete Linux-based operating system, freely available with
both community and professional support. It is developed by a large
community and we invite you to participate too!

The Ubuntu community is built on the ideas enshrined in the Ubuntu
Philosophy: that software should be available free of charge, that
software tools should be usable by people in their local language and
despite any disabilities, and that people should have the freedom to
customise and alter their software in whatever way they see fit.

These freedoms make Ubuntu fundamentally different from traditional
proprietary software: not only are the tools you need available free of
charge, you have the right to modify your software until it works the
way you want it to.

The team behind Ubuntu makes the following public commitment to its users:

    *      Ubuntu will always be free of charge, and there is no extra
fee for the "enterprise edition", we make our very best work available
to everyone on the same Free terms.

    *      Ubuntu comes with full commercial support from hundreds of
companies around the world. Ubuntu is released regularly and
predictably; a new release is made every six months. Each release is
supported with free security updates and fixes for at least 18 months.

    *      Ubuntu will include the very best in translations and
accessibility infrastructure that the Free Software community has to
offer, to make Ubuntu usable by as many people as possible. We
collaborate as widely as possible on bug fixing and code sharing.

    *      Ubuntu is entirely committed to the principles of free
software development; we encourage people to use free and open source
software, improve it and pass it on.

Ubuntu is suitable for both desktop and server use. The current Ubuntu
release supports PC (Intel x86), 64-bit PC (AMD64) and PowerPC (Apple
iBook and Powerbook, G4 and G5) architectures.

Ubuntu includes more than 16,000 pieces of software, but the core
desktop installation fits on a single CD. Ubuntu covers every standard
desktop application from word processing and spreadsheet applications to
internet access applications, web server software, email software,
programming languages and tools and of course several games.
=========================================

The only near mention is that third to last clause in the last
paragraph, "Programming languages and tools."  It should instead look
like "<a href='python.html'>a full Python development environment</a>"
to REALLY draw attention to it; I suspect they're afraid of massive
flames or criticisms though.

> was asked before. It's in main, but it's not included in the default
> install. I think it's included in the cd, so you can always apt-get
> it.
>

Yes, C/C++ build-essentials are on the CD, just not installed by default
taking up 58 megs of space and keeping several extraneous libraries on
the system.

> --
>
> Javier
>

- --
All content of all messages exchanged herein are left in the
Public Domain, unless otherwise explicitly stated.

    Creative brains are a valuable, limited resource. They shouldn't be
    wasted on re-inventing the wheel when there are so many fascinating
    new problems waiting out there.
                                                 -- Eric Steven Raymond

    We will enslave their women, eat their children and rape their
    cattle!
                                     -- Evil alien overlord from Blasto
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Re: ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair?

Santiago Roza-2
In reply to this post by John Moser-2
On 4/18/06, John Richard Moser <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Read:  A python developer, or a user who is learning to program in
> Python.  If you are interested in C, C++, Ruby, Perl, PHP, TCL/TK, Java,
> C#, or Objective-C, GO HOME WE DON'T WANT YOU!


we can't support every language out there in a single cd, so choices
have to be made.  in this case, mark shuttleworth himself chose
python, so there's nothing you can do about it by whining in this
list.

if you think the sabdfl is wrong, you can try to contact him by email
or irc or something.  if he still doesn't like your point, you're
completely free to start your own non-python fork of ubuntu.  but
please try not to discuss this in the wrong place, since that would be
a real waste of time and resources.

greetings,

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Re: ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair?

Jamie Jones-3
In reply to this post by John Moser-2
On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 13:15 -0400, John Richard Moser wrote:

> Read:  A python developer, or a user who is learning to program in
> Python.  If you are interested in C, C++, Ruby, Perl, PHP, TCL/TK, Java,
> C#, or Objective-C, GO HOME WE DON'T WANT YOU!

John, has it occurred to you that Ubuntu devs use python, and as they
use the system they develop, they just might have an interest in
including the software they use by default to make themselves more
productive. You do seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about
Python though, as past posts indicate.

Some friendly advice, yours to take or not as you please, but if you
actually want to be taken seriously, lose the almost constant hostile
tone from you emails, and present a clear and calm argument as to why
your idea is better.

I'd suggest ending the thread here as it's run it's course several times
now, each time rather like before.

Regards,
Yagisan
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Re: ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair?

Mike Bird-6
In reply to this post by Santiago Roza-2
On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 10:28, Santiago Roza wrote:
> we can't support every language out there in a single cd, so choices
> have to be made.  in this case, mark shuttleworth himself chose
> python, so there's nothing you can do about it by whining in this
> list.

It would be sensible for the SA*DFL to read this list, or
at least to assign some Junior Minister of the Realm to read
and summarize it for him.  Or is he making decisions in a
vacuum?  (Would explain a lot.)

> if you think the sabdfl is wrong, you can try to contact him by email
> or irc or something.  if he still doesn't like your point, you're
> completely free to start your own non-python fork of ubuntu.  but
> please try not to discuss this in the wrong place, since that would be
> a real waste of time and resources.

Putting Python devel on every Ubuntu desktop is a waste of
time and resources.  Therefore, attempts to reverse this
silly decision are attempts to save time and resources.

However, we should keep things in perspective.  The Python
devel decision is only silly and wasteful.  The decision to
drop mailx and a (stub) MTA is *dangerous*.

How many PHBs are going to fire sysadmins when they find
Python devel missing from their desktop?

How many PHBs are going to fire sysadmins when they lose
data (or their MP3 collection) and MySQL or mdadm or
smartmon or standard had been trying to send warning messages
for weeks?  (Yes, we know the Ubuntu answer is that everyone
should read their syslogs every night.  However, this is
not feasible for those of us in the reality-based world.)

--Mike Bird



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Re: ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair?

Matthew East
In reply to this post by Jamie Jones-3
On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 04:01 +1000, Jamie Jones wrote:
> On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 13:15 -0400, John Richard Moser wrote:
>
> > Read:  A python developer, or a user who is learning to program in
> > Python.  If you are interested in C, C++, Ruby, Perl, PHP, TCL/TK, Java,
> > C#, or Objective-C, GO HOME WE DON'T WANT YOU!
>
> John, has it occurred to you {snipped}

Please don't feed the troll! The lists are noisy enough these days,
without encouraging discussions of this kind. The policy of Ubuntu on
python and other programming support has been discussed endlessly on
this list, and in a much more productive way than this.

Matt
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Re: ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair?

Mike Bird-6
In reply to this post by Jamie Jones-3
On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 11:01, Jamie Jones wrote:
> John, has it occurred to you that Ubuntu devs use python, and as they
> use the system they develop, they just might have an interest in
> including the software they use by default to make themselves more
> productive. You do seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about
> Python though, as past posts indicate.

Jamie, has it occurred to you that Ubuntu devs who use python
could install a hypothetical ubuntu-desktop-python-devel-wizbang
package without cluttering the desktops and drives of the 99.9%
of Ubuntu users who don't need python dev?   You do seem to be
inexplicably defensive about Python though, as past posts indicate.

--Mike Bird


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Re: ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair?

Santiago Roza-2
In reply to this post by Mike Bird-6
On 4/18/06, Mike Bird <[hidden email]> wrote:


> It would be sensible for the SA*DFL to read this list ...
> Or is he making decisions in a
> vacuum?

well i'm not a ubuntu developer (or even a developer at all), but from
what i've seen, actual development discussion doesn't take place in
this list, so making decisions without reading it doesn't really sound
like making them "in a vacuum".


> Putting Python devel on every Ubuntu desktop is a waste of
> time and resources.  Therefore, attempts to reverse this
> silly decision are attempts to save time and resources.

maybe you're right, but again this is not the place for those
attempts, especially if the decision comes from the sabdfl himself.


> However, we should keep things in perspective.  The Python
> devel decision is only silly and wasteful.  The decision to
> drop mailx and a (stub) MTA is *dangerous*.

i guess you should open a different thread if you want to talk about a
different subject...


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Re: ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair?

Matthew East
In reply to this post by John Moser-2
Hi John,

On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 13:22 -0400, John Richard Moser wrote:

{snipped some stuff}

> It's
> not a marketed feature, they don't want to draw too much attention to
> the fact that this stuff is all there, hence why it's not majorly
> advertised anywhere.
>
> If they really wanted to promote it they should mention Python directly
> on their main page.

Rather than jumping to conclusions about the reasons that this feature
of Ubuntu is not properly advertised on the website, it is a better idea
to simply raise the problem, and a discussion about solving it can
follow. (And as others have observed, I'd also recommend you adopt a
different tone in order to ensure that your points are given proper
weight).

We have discussed this recently, and came to the conclusion that
information about Ubuntu's python-ready support should be added to the
FAQ on the website. It may be that an even more prominent position is
appropriate. We can discuss the best way of doing this.

I'd suggest doing so on the sounder mailing list, so that the developers
can carry on with their work undistracted. I'm leaving ubuntu-devel in
cc: for this message, please remove it when the next person replies.

thanks,

Matt
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Re: ubuntu-desktop depends on bicyclerepair?

Jamie Jones-3
In reply to this post by Mike Bird-6
On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 11:19 -0700, Mike Bird wrote:
> On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 11:01, Jamie Jones wrote:

> Jamie, has it occurred to you that Ubuntu devs who use python
> could install a hypothetical ubuntu-desktop-python-devel-wizbang
> package without cluttering the desktops and drives of the 99.9%
> of Ubuntu users who don't need python dev?

Yeah, it did. So what ? I understand the pros and cons very well, but
the devs have made their mind up. Foaming at the mouth screaming "Python
is teh suxorz!!!" isn't going to convince them otherwise. FWIW I'd
rather the non-essential python packages not installed by default.

>    You do seem to be
> inexplicably defensive about Python though, as past posts indicate.

I'd actually like you to cite those past posts, as I'd find them to be a
good read. Alternatively actually get your facts right. Please pick
one.

Regards,
Yagisan
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