what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
78 messages Options
1234
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Lea Gris
Sander van Loon a écrit :

> On Wed, 2006-01-04 at 15:48 -0800, Matt Zimmerman wrote:
>
>>For the same reasons why we provide OpenOffice.org rather than
>>Abiword/Gnumeric/etc.  Firefox is a cross-platform standard that is
> By the way I think you can't compare OpenOffice vs. GNOME-Office with
> Firefox vs. Epiphany. While apps like Abiword certainly are better than
> OO Writer, OpenOffice is a complete office suite, and GNOME-Office is
> not, GNOME-Office lacks an essential component, a presentation program
> as another reply mentioned. So I can understand why you want to keep
> OpenOffice because there are good reasons for that. However, I have not
> seen good reasons for staying with Firefox.
>
> You mention that:
>
> 1. Firefox is a cross-platform standard.
> 2. More recognizable and familiar to users and has momentum (what is
> meant with that?).
> 3. Users can easily get help with it.
> 4. Ubuntu received a positive response for shipping Firefox.

> In short, the pro-Epiphany arguments are a lot more convincing to me
> than the pro-Firefox arguments.
>
> I hope the Ubuntu development team will discuss/consider this request.

There is no easy way to configure proxy in Epiphany and you have to go
to about:config (not particularly user friendly)

There is no Accept-Language string configured by default so you have to
go set it up if you want multilingual sites to show you content in you
prefered language.

You can't easyly select protocol handlers except by editing prefs.js or
about:config. So, if you want another email client to pop when you
select a mailto: url, that's very complicated to se up (same with
firefox though).

Dialogs pop bottom right of the screen (who konw why) that is very
unfriendly.

That's all the funny things with gnome applications. They look neat at
first glance then you discover :
- It does not work as intended or crash (Evolution)
- It is never finished nor complete nor polished (missing preferences
dialogs or functions.

And who care ? That's only my opinion based on my experience. I know
several users who enjoy gnome apps sets and others who enjoy other set
of applications.

You can't deside which software to include as default based on a set of
quality and failures. That's all opinions and the opinions that count
are the users opinions, not some obscure developpers arytmethic :)

--
Léa Gris

--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

James "Doc" Livingston
On Fri, 2006-01-06 at 13:46 +0100, Lea Gris wrote:
> There is no easy way to configure proxy in Epiphany and you have to go
> to about:config (not particularly user friendly)
>
> You can't easyly select protocol handlers except by editing prefs.js or
> about:config. So, if you want another email client to pop when you
> select a mailto: url, that's very complicated to se up (same with
> firefox though).

For both of these, Epiphany uses the Gnome-wide settings - which I'd
count as a feature.


Cheers,

James "Doc" Livingston
--
Every now and then, Google doesn't throw up what I need so I start
checking Altavista, Yahoo, etc. In almost every single case, I am
brutally reminded why I use Google in the first place. -- John Riddoch,

--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel

signature.asc (196 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Lionel Dricot (aka Ploum)
It was (very quickly) discussed on ubuntu-desktop :
http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2005-October/000013.html

;-)


PS : By the way, I'm very proud to announce the release of my Ubuntu book, in French :
http://ploum.frimouvy.org/?2006/01/06/88-ubuntu-le-livre
http://www.eyrolles.com/Accueil/Livre/9782212116083/

On 06/01/06, James Livingston <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, 2006-01-06 at 13:46 +0100, Lea Gris wrote:
> There is no easy way to configure proxy in Epiphany and you have to go
> to about:config (not particularly user friendly)
>
> You can't easyly select protocol handlers except by editing prefs.js or
> about:config. So, if you want another email client to pop when you
> select a mailto: url, that's very complicated to se up (same with
> firefox though).

For both of these, Epiphany uses the Gnome-wide settings - which I'd
count as a feature.


Cheers,

James "Doc" Livingston
--
Every now and then, Google doesn't throw up what I need so I start
checking Altavista, Yahoo, etc. In almost every single case, I am
brutally reminded why I use Google in the first place. -- John Riddoch,


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQBDvmlg1HV04YkhLRkRAmUqAKCPoRnkFJ9O6/y/oCFXqGcpJKEfMQCghyTt
3lAZem6IusdUuTR5/Ce5+2Q=
=bhtE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel




--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Eric Dunbar
In reply to this post by Robin Sonefors
On 1/5/06, Robin Sonefors <[hidden email]> wrote:

> tor 2006-01-05 klockan 09:22 -0800 skrev Corey Burger:
> >
> > (Putting my Userful hat on)
> >
> > For a quick perspective, we at Userful ship Epiphany and not Firefox.
> > I should note for those who don't know, 95% of the users who use our
> > stuff don't even know they are using Linux, let alone Fedora Core,
> > GNOME or Epiphany.
> >
> > What does this mean for Ubuntu? I think a webbrowser is a webbrowser
> > to most users. Your average grandma is never going to install any of
> > the 9 million plugins for Firefox that are out there and thus doesn't
> > need that capability. But they do want a consistent print/open dialog,
> > etc.
>
> I agree completely with the previous speaker. Consistency is one of the
> most important aspects of Gnome (the way I see it). Epiphany uses the
> same browser engine, and can thus do it's job as well as Firefox: that
> is, show webpages. That is really all the browser-features you use. On
> top of that, it also does it the Right Way with respect to Gnome.

I did recently write "consitency, consistency, consistency" with
regards to the FF URL bar ;=P), however, I'm willing to make an
exception in this case. FireFox does an excellent job of being a web
browser (vs. Epiphany).

I tried Epiphany (granted, that was in 5.10 when it was in beta) a few
months back and was thoroughly underwhelmed. It didn't seem to have
particularly good tab handling (did it even have tabs?) and was (in my
experience) quite unstable.

Until Epiphany becomes _undisputably_ BETTER than FF, FF should remain
the default. It's not good enough for Epiphany to be FF's equal -- it
has to do its job BETTER than FF!!!

Eric.

--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Sandis Neilands
Hello!

> I did recently write "consitency, consistency, consistency" with
> regards to the FF URL bar ;=P), however, I'm willing to make an
> exception in this case. FireFox does an excellent job of being a web
> browser (vs. Epiphany).
>
> I tried Epiphany (granted, that was in 5.10 when it was in beta) a few
> months back and was thoroughly underwhelmed. It didn't seem to have
> particularly good tab handling (did it even have tabs?) and was (in my
> experience) quite unstable.

It is very stable on my 5.10. And yes, it has tabs. And tab handling
is a way better in epi than in firefox. Can you
1) Sort your tags by dragging them in firefox?
2) Can you close tab without activating it in firefox?
Note that epiphany has these features in itself not in some 3rd party
extension.
In fact it would be very nice if gnome terminal handled tabs like
epiphany does.

> Until Epiphany becomes _undisputably_ BETTER than FF, FF should remain
> the default. It's not good enough for Epiphany to be FF's equal -- it
> has to do its job BETTER than FF!!!

Right. Some people who have used epiphany a bit more than you think
that epiphany is already better than firefox (in context as ubuntu's
default web browser). I agree with them. So what exactly should it do
better than firefox to become default?

--
Sandis

--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Quim Gil-2


En/na Sandis Neilands ha escrit:
> So what exactly should it do better than firefox to become default?

I think this is a very good question. Combined with Matt's very good
answers we get to the point of knowing if the decision of moving from
Firefox to Epiphany would be done on a purely technical basis, or based
also on marketing aspects.

Same with OpenOffice.org vs GNOME Office. Even if tomorrow we would have
the missing presentations tool in GO and it was proved that the GNOME
suite is far better in the context of Ubuntu than OOo, what else would
be needed for a change?

Nobody ignores the marketing risk that represents to Ubuntu the fact of
"not shipping Mozilla and OpenOffice.org" in the CDs (these are the
headlines, then the explanations would come. Nobody ignores the push
that would represent to Epiphany and GnomeOffice (specifically Abiword)
the fact of being officially adopted by Ubuntu.

I wonder if there is a possibility in between (something else than
having these apps in Main).

--
Quim Gil - http://desdeamericaconamor.org

--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel

signature.asc (196 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Daniel Robitaille-2
In reply to this post by Sandis Neilands
> It is very stable on my 5.10. And yes, it has tabs. And tab handling
> is a way better in epi than in firefox. Can you
> 1) Sort your tags by dragging them in firefox?

yes.  firefox 1.5 (the version currently in Dapper) does that.



--
Daniel Robitaille

--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Corey Burger
On 1/7/06, Daniel Robitaille <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > It is very stable on my 5.10. And yes, it has tabs. And tab handling
> > is a way better in epi than in firefox. Can you
> > 1) Sort your tags by dragging them in firefox?
>
> yes.  firefox 1.5 (the version currently in Dapper) does that.

Having used both, I can say for a fact that Epiphany's handling of tab
movement is much nicer and more fluid than FF's.

Corey

--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Wouter Stomp
In reply to this post by Sandis Neilands
On 1/7/06, Sandis Neilands <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2) Can you close tab without activating it in firefox?

Yes, by clicking on it with the middle mouse button.

Wouter

--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Tristan Wibberley
Wouter Stomp wrote:
> On 1/7/06, Sandis Neilands <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>>2) Can you close tab without activating it in firefox?
>
>
> Yes, by clicking on it with the middle mouse button.

Is there any chance, for Dapper, of installing some tab extension as
standard (via Recommends) and configuring it to put a close button on
each tab by default. I've been using firefox since before it was firefox
and I didn't know about the middle click thing because there is no way
for it to be indicated on screen that that will happen, a close button
on each tab, however, will do precisely that. I *do* know about
right-click->Close Tab, but right click, move down and click again is
annoying as hell for some reason. Having used firefox at work, where IT
have installed a tab extension that adds the close button to each tab, I
can say with certainty that it is extremely desirable in order to give
Ubuntu that nice polish that a consumer OS should have.

--
Tristan Wibberley


--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Lionel Dricot (aka Ploum)
If firefox must be shipped with tons of extensions, there's  no reason to not adopt Epiphany instead.

IMHO, Firefox must be as Thunderbird is now : easily installable but a "plus" for power users.

I'm using Epiphany for a few months now and it's astonishing how I cannot use Firefox anymore : it's so slow, non-intuitive (not Gnome HIG), non-responsive. But that's not the point here ;-)

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EpiphanyDefaultBrowser is surprizing because :
- There's very few advantages in favor of Firefox !
- Advantages of Firefox are not advantages of the program itself : hype, well known, familiar, lot of extensions.

As we speak about a default browser (in my mind, an user that can install a firefox extension can also install a whole new browser if needed), I would be curious to hear a bit more from people that believe that Firefox must be the default. (not on this list, on the wiki page please).

As I said all the time : Remember that we are talking about default here, not about your personnal preference. What an user must see the first time he will start Ubuntu.


On 07/01/06, Tristan Wibberley <[hidden email]> wrote:
Wouter Stomp wrote:
> On 1/7/06, Sandis Neilands <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>>2) Can you close tab without activating it in firefox?
>
>
> Yes, by clicking on it with the middle mouse button.

Is there any chance, for Dapper, of installing some tab extension as
standard (via Recommends) and configuring it to put a close button on
each tab by default. I've been using firefox since before it was firefox
and I didn't know about the middle click thing because there is no way
for it to be indicated on screen that that will happen, a close button
on each tab, however, will do precisely that. I *do* know about
right-click->Close Tab, but right click, move down and click again is
annoying as hell for some reason. Having used firefox at work, where IT
have installed a tab extension that adds the close button to each tab, I
can say with certainty that it is extremely desirable in order to give
Ubuntu that nice polish that a consumer OS should have.

--
Tristan Wibberley


--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel


--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Ben Aldrich
I have tried just a few days ago to use epiphany again and its tab handling drives me nuts.. there is no extension to allow all things to be opened in tabs which means its unusable for me.  Plus atleast the default epiphany in ubuntu repositories removes the url bar after you type in the first place you want to go. Talk about a horrible thing for usability(I know this can be changed easily but who's bright idea was that as a defalt?).  Plus when saving files it defaults to going to my home directory even though desktop is set in the prefrences dialog.  Then there is the fact that when saving to directories its almost never the directories that I have set in my places for gnome and it never remembers the directory you last saved that file type to, which firefox does. 

In almost every way firefox 1.5 is better then epiphany for my every day use, and same for my mother who is an ubuntu user.  She is constantly saving images and other things from email that would drive her nuts having to tell epiphany every time where to save her images.  Just because you want to save things in a directory you shouldn't have to map it to your places in gnome. 
Then there is the fact that you can use firefox in any os you are in really helps the user feel comfortable in linux right from the beginning.  I think Openoffice helps in this respect aswell.






--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

David Bain-5
The webdeveloper extension is the biggest reason why I keep coming back to firefox. I like epiphany... but if I had to choose just one, it's going to be firefox.

On 1/7/06, Ben Aldrich <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have tried just a few days ago to use epiphany again and its tab handling drives me nuts.. there is no extension to allow all things to be opened in tabs which means its unusable for me.  Plus atleast the default epiphany in ubuntu repositories removes the url bar after you type in the first place you want to go. Talk about a horrible thing for usability(I know this can be changed easily but who's bright idea was that as a defalt?).  Plus when saving files it defaults to going to my home directory even though desktop is set in the prefrences dialog.  Then there is the fact that when saving to directories its almost never the directories that I have set in my places for gnome and it never remembers the directory you last saved that file type to, which firefox does. 

In almost every way firefox 1.5 is better then epiphany for my every day use, and same for my mother who is an ubuntu user.  She is constantly saving images and other things from email that would drive her nuts having to tell epiphany every time where to save her images.  Just because you want to save things in a directory you shouldn't have to map it to your places in gnome. 
Then there is the fact that you can use firefox in any os you are in really helps the user feel comfortable in linux right from the beginning.  I think Openoffice helps in this respect aswell.






--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel" target="_blank"> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel




--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

MadMan2k
please remember that this is not about what might fit best your need but
the needs of a new and unexperienced user.
The solution should be neither bloated nor confusing.
And if the user gains more experience he will be also install more
advanced applications to fit his grown demand over synaptic...

David Bain wrote:

> The webdeveloper extension is the biggest reason why I keep coming back
> to firefox. I like epiphany... but if I had to choose just one, it's
> going to be firefox.
>
> On 1/7/06, *Ben Aldrich* <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     I have tried just a few days ago to use epiphany again and its tab
>     handling drives me nuts.. there is no extension to allow all things
>     to be opened in tabs which means its unusable for me.  Plus atleast
>     the default epiphany in ubuntu repositories removes the url bar
>     after you type in the first place you want to go. Talk about a
>     horrible thing for usability(I know this can be changed easily but
>     who's bright idea was that as a defalt?).  Plus when saving files it
>     defaults to going to my home directory even though desktop is set in
>     the prefrences dialog.  Then there is the fact that when saving to
>     directories its almost never the directories that I have set in my
>     places for gnome and it never remembers the directory you last saved
>     that file type to, which firefox does.
>
>     In almost every way firefox 1.5 is better then epiphany for my every
>     day use, and same for my mother who is an ubuntu user.  She is
>     constantly saving images and other things from email that would
>     drive her nuts having to tell epiphany every time where to save her
>     images.  Just because you want to save things in a directory you
>     shouldn't have to map it to your places in gnome.
>     Then there is the fact that you can use firefox in any os you are in
>     really helps the user feel comfortable in linux right from the
>     beginning.  I think Openoffice helps in this respect aswell.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     --
>     ubuntu-devel mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
>
>
>

--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Eric Dunbar
On 1/8/06, MadMan2k <[hidden email]> wrote:

> please remember that this is not about what might fit best your need but
> the needs of a new and unexperienced user.
> The solution should be neither bloated nor confusing.
> And if the user gains more experience he will be also install more
> advanced applications to fit his grown demand over synaptic...
>
> David Bain wrote:
> > The webdeveloper extension is the biggest reason why I keep coming back
> > to firefox. I like epiphany... but if I had to choose just one, it's
> > going to be firefox.

I just gave Epiphany another try and have to say it's "nice", but it's
_definitely_ inferior to FireFox (and, I do propose that one of the
criteria for replacing FF with Epiphany ought to be that Epiphany does
a _better_ job of browsing the web than FF for the majority of users).

Here's a short list of issues, some less important than others:

1. The lack of a Google bar (or, heaven forbid, another search engine)
is a show stopper! Nearly every web browser worth its salt now has the
search bar smack dab beside the URL bar!

2. And, re-arrangeable tabs. What's up with that? Yeah, it's a neat
gimmick and, perhaps with time I could find a use for them, BUT, BUT,
BUT how is *that* going to make web browsing easier for a newbie, or
for the _majority_ of users?

Tabs are a bizarre paradox in Epiphany. They're going for simplicity
(purportedly) but they throw in a pretty obscure interface hack that
is bound to confuse the issue and make browsing the web a more
frustrating experience for someone learning how to use tabs for the
very first time (and, every other implementation of tabs in
non-browser apps (aside from some bizarre moving MS preferences panes
which drove me bonkers because the tabs kept moving around on me) uses
_fixed_ tabs).

3. Menu entries are poorly labelled.

I know web browsers like the back of my hand (and their preferences
settings) and I couldn't guess what "View:Popup Windows" was supposed
to do. If I select it does it bring up a popup window of sorts? Does
it _allow_ or _disallow_ popup windows?

More appropriate would be "Prevent Popup Windows". A check mark would
signify that popup windows are being prevented. No check mark would
mean they're allowed.

Likewise, "Edit:Toolbars". What does that do? Display _more_ toolbars
(because of the plural)? Customize Toolbars would be more appropriate!

4. Toolbar icons are pretty amateurish. Not a major issue but they do
look like they were thrown together in a few minutes in GIMP.

5. What WOULD be useful (that FF doesn't have) for Epiphany to have is
toolbar icons for zoom in/out (text size up/down). This is something
simple users could use without getting confused.

It's a pretty straightforward concept that doesn't require the sort of
fiddling that movable tabs do. I use this feature all the time in
Safari (Apple's KHTML-based browser) but unfortunately none of my
Ubuntu or Linux Gecko-based browsers* have this toolbar feature, yet
(FF, Epiphany, Konq**).

*IIRC Camino (the first major browser-only offshoot of Gecko...
predated FF by about a year (maybe more)) does have font size up/down.

**Konquerer has a rudimentary enlarge/shrink text, unfortunately it's
not available to the "Location toolbar" (you have to have the main
toolbar active to access it).

Eric.

--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Eric Dunbar
> 5. What WOULD be useful (that FF doesn't have) for Epiphany to have is
> toolbar icons for zoom in/out (text size up/down). This is something
> simple users could use without getting confused.

Not to imply that the users are "simple", but that their needs are
"simple" (elementary).

Eric.

--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Eric Dunbar
On 1/9/06, Eric Dunbar <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > 5. What WOULD be useful (that FF doesn't have) for Epiphany to have is
> > toolbar icons for zoom in/out (text size up/down). This is something
> > simple users could use without getting confused.
>
> Not to imply that the users are "simple", but that their needs are
> "simple" (elementary).

PS I think that Epiphany DOES have potential, and, it has the
potential to replace FF _nearly in its current form_, but, some
thought needs to be put into its settings.

If the goal is simple yet _as useful as possible_, then...

- the menus need to be cleaned up a bit to better reflect the
underlying actions;
- the icons needs to be prettied up;
- text size icons OR zoom icons (though, that may require too much
coding since zoom isn't directly supported by the current interface
whereas text sizing is) added;
- movable tabs need to be locked down as the default (this is a "power
user" feature, inappropriate for beginners or long time users with
simple needs); and,
- add a Google (or other search engine) search bar beside the URL bar.

I'm sure there are a few other interface clean-ups that could happen,
but I would happily endorse Epiphany as the default browser with these
few clean-ups (it's not at all that bad... just still a little rough
around the edges (and, these changes are EASY to make... the Google
bar might take a bit of coding, but, given that FF has it, it can't be
that hard)).

Eric.

--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Evandro Fernandes Giovanini
Em Seg, 2006-01-09 às 21:35 -0500, Eric Dunbar escreveu:
>
> PS I think that Epiphany DOES have potential, and, it has the
> potential to replace FF _nearly in its current form_, but, some
> thought needs to be put into its settings.
>
> If the goal is simple yet _as useful as possible_, then...
>
> - the menus need to be cleaned up a bit to better reflect the
> underlying actions;

I don't agree with some of your comments, but please file them on
bugzilla.gnome.org (if you haven't already). The Epiphany developers may
agree with you. :)

> - the icons needs to be prettied up;

The Epiphany icons come from the GNOME theme. In fact, they're the exact
same icons as the 'File Browser' (default mode for nautilus in Ubuntu).
I use the Tango icon theme and things look much better indeed.

> - text size icons OR zoom icons (though, that may
>  require too much
> coding since zoom isn't directly supported by the current interface
> whereas text sizing is) added;

I think it would actually be nice to have text zoom icons replace the
throbber, which is useless thanks to the statusbar. Bug them! :)

> - movable tabs need to be locked down as the default (this is a "power
> user" feature, inappropriate for beginners or long time users with
> simple needs); and,

Why would this be inappropriate for beginners? I don't think people
would accidently move tabs, but if you think that then perhaps they
could be made a little harder to move. No need for more preferences,
just fix the behaviour so it works for everyone. :)

> - add a Google (or other search engine) search bar beside the URL bar.

There's only one bar in Epiphany, which can be used as a URL bar or a
search bar. If you start typing something and select the 'Search the
web' button, it will search using Google. You can also just type search
expressions and hit enter, and Epiphany will launch a Google search.
Also, Google is the default home page in Epiphany (not in the Ubuntu
packages though).


Cheers,
Evandro

--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: what is the reason for not making epiphany the defaultbrowser?

James "Doc" Livingston
In reply to this post by Eric Dunbar
On Mon, 2006-01-09 at 21:26 -0500, Eric Dunbar wrote:
> 1. The lack of a Google bar (or, heaven forbid, another search engine)
> is a show stopper! Nearly every web browser worth its salt now has the
> search bar smack dab beside the URL bar!

Epiphany does this differently: type it into the location entry, and
then select "Search the Web" from the drop-down menu. Some people prefer
this, some don't.

If you really want a Google search entry, it's easy to add one (oor any
smart bookmark for that matter), just drag the smart bookmark to the
toolbar. It was more difficult in older versions, but that's been fixed.


> 2. And, re-arrangeable tabs. What's up with that? Yeah, it's a neat
> gimmick and, perhaps with time I could find a use for them, BUT, BUT,
> BUT how is *that* going to make web browsing easier for a newbie, or
> for the _majority_ of users?

Once again this either annoying or a must-have feature, depending on you
personal taste. Firefox 1.5 does this too, so I don't think it can
really count against Epiphany.


> 3. Menu entries are poorly labelled.
>
> I know web browsers like the back of my hand (and their preferences
> settings) and I couldn't guess what "View:Popup Windows" was supposed
> to do. If I select it does it bring up a popup window of sorts? Does
> it _allow_ or _disallow_ popup windows?
>
> More appropriate would be "Prevent Popup Windows". A check mark would
> signify that popup windows are being prevented. No check mark would
> mean they're allowed.
I'm not sure about earlier versions, but in Epiphany 1.9 the menu item
is a toggle item (with a check mark). The sense is reversed, so that
being checked allows rather than prevents popups, though.


> Likewise, "Edit:Toolbars". What does that do? Display _more_ toolbars
> (because of the plural)? Customize Toolbars would be more appropriate!

Displaying toolbars is one of the things it lets you do, but I agree
that it could be clearer. The best thing to do is file a bug about it
(in fact, this post has inspired me to file a few about some Firefox
menu items).


> 4. Toolbar icons are pretty amateurish. Not a major issue but they do
> look like they were thrown together in a few minutes in GIMP.

Epiphany uses the GTK icon theme, so if you don't like them either
change your icon theme or complain to it's author. Again this is
personal taste: some people like the ability to have the Firefox icons
different from other applications, some people hate it because they
can't find a Firefox theme that has the same icons as their desktop.


Of you complaints, Firefox has one, two are design choices which are a
matter of personal opinion and one could be trivial to fix. While
Epiphany may not be better than Firefox, I'd also say that Firefox may
not be better than Epiphany - the major differences are design choices
that suit some people and not others.


Cheers,

James "Doc" Livingston
--
Every one is entitled to their own opinion. But not their own facts

--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel

signature.asc (196 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Eric Dunbar
In reply to this post by Eric Dunbar
On 1/9/06, Cam <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 1/9/06, Eric Dunbar <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > 1. The lack of a Google bar (or, heaven forbid, another search engine)
> > is a show stopper! Nearly every web browser worth its salt now has the
> > search bar smack dab beside the URL bar!
>
> epiphany is nicer in that you just type the search terms in the url
> bar and it searches for you.  no need for a seperate bar (which my
> mother doesn't know how to use).

I always have found that to be an unsatisfactory solution (and have
never used it). It's not an easily discoverable way of searching (the
search entry box is clear and simple) and requires one to select a
button.

I will often enter a single word (e.g. google) into the URL bar. That
pulls up www.google.com (or .ca if a browser allows me to configure
the default www and TLD).

I will also enter a single word into the search bar. That pulls up a
_search_ from google.com.

No ambiguity. No "hidden" features. No discoverability NEEDED!!!

> > Tabs are a bizarre paradox in Epiphany. They're going for simplicity
> > (purportedly) but they throw in a pretty obscure interface hack that
> > is bound to confuse the issue and make browsing the web a more
> > frustrating experience for someone learning how to use tabs for the
> > very first time (and, every other implementation of tabs in
> > non-browser apps (aside from some bizarre moving MS preferences panes
> > which drove me bonkers because the tabs kept moving around on me) uses
> > _fixed_ tabs).
>
> What exactly is wrong w/ them?

Their implementation in Epiphany is less than adequate. It's far too
sensitive and will certainly cause novice users or less advanced
long-time users to be frustrated. FF (as James Livingston pointed out)
does have this too, but, at least on the Mac version of FF, it's far
less sensitive and more usable.

> > 4. Toolbar icons are pretty amateurish. Not a major issue but they do
> > look like they were thrown together in a few minutes in GIMP.
>
> Those are just the standard GNOME icons, that's better desktop
> integration (if you don't like them just switch your icon-theme)

How many people are going to bother changing their icon theme? Start
with something that doesn't look like a five-year-old (or someone
artistically challenged like me) designed them.

> > 5. What WOULD be useful (that FF doesn't have) for Epiphany to have is
> > toolbar icons for zoom in/out (text size up/down). This is something
> > simple users could use without getting confused.
>
> There is a zoom button for the toolbar (it's actually a drop-down menu
> that lets you choose what text size you want), i use it all the time.

Hmm. Where was it in the configuration panel? Even if it's there, a
drop down menu is unsatisfactory. Buttons are a more useful solution.
Less ambiguity. Fewer contortions needed to access it.

> In short, epiphany basically does everything firefox does
> out-of-the-box.  Of course user-preference does vary (i really miss
> adblock in epiphany (it's coming though!), but epiphany definitely
> integrates better w/ the desktop, and has a cleaner interface for the
> non-geek user.

I'd say it currently is not on-par yet with FF, and, certainly not
good enough to _replace_ FF when FireFox has name recognition.

To be honest, if I were a new user coming to Ubuntu and I found some
no-name browser included rather than FireFox I'd quickly be scouring
the web for a distro that did include FF. I'd make the assumption
(wrongly) that Ubuntu was targetted at a segment of the population
that didn't make real use of the web... "¿Why would they release a
Linux distro for standard desktop use _without_ FireFox?". "Oh, they
must be making a developers' distro! Next."

I do see the argument for integration with GNOME (though, I don't see
a huge difference between FF and GNOME either), and I can see how
Epiphay COULD provide a good browsing experience for a majority of
users, but it's still a touch too amateurish and has too many
(easy-to-fix) rough edges to give pundits an unwarranted opportunity
to slag Ubuntu (and, slag Ubuntu they almost certainly would if
Epiphany shipped in lieu of FireFox). Epiphany needs a PERFECT
interface to replace FF, given that FF has fewer
rough-around-the-edges problems (it ain't exactly perfect either... on
Linux its my preferred browser, but on Mac OS X its outdone by Safari
(#1) (which uses KHTML anyway) and Camino* (Gecko) (#2)).

*Camino predated the first functioning FireFox betas by more than a
year and was better than FF for a long time (it lost its lead when
FireFox 0.9 came out but since then Camino has fought back to make a
better browser than FF 1.5 :-).

Eric.

--
ubuntu-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
1234