what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

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Re: Fwd: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Chris Jones-10
Hi

On 12:15:25 pm 10/01/2006 Eric Dunbar <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I always have found that to be an unsatisfactory solution (and have

I prefer to use firefox's bookmark keywords as it involves even less
clicking, but that's just my way.
This entire thread has been personal preference thinly disguised as
condescending usability nonsense.

> How many people are going to bother changing their icon theme? Start
> with something that doesn't look like a five-year-old (or someone

I'm quite sure the stock Gnome icon authors have more artistic talent than
I do, so I wouldn't liken their work to that of an infant.

> Hmm. Where was it in the configuration panel? Even if it's there, a

Right click on the toolbar and choose customise.

Or you could just start with sane font defaults (which is to say, a minimum
font size you can read) so you never need to zoom in on a page (which, I
have to say, is something I've never needed to do)

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Re: Fwd: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Joao Inacio
I would just like to ask if the aim is to please the common user, or
the "new and unexperienced".... because there is a big difference.

Personally, i just think that users should not be treated like they
are completely clueless, because i personally believe a fair portion
will have its specific needs.

I find it hard that epiphany can even try to compete with ff:
 - it isnt't THAT much simpler to use than ff.
 - it lacks features
 - no extensions
 - many users coming from windows will feel right at home with
firefox, and instead would have to get used to a new browser...
 - easier to find support in ff


so for default i sincerely think ff does its job much better, also
it's getting some new features, less bugs and becoming more
responsive. for me it's a no-brainer.


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Re: Fwd: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Jeroen van Splunder
In reply to this post by Eric Dunbar
Op ma, 09-01-2006 te 21:26 -0500, schreef Eric Dunbar:

> 2. And, re-arrangeable tabs. What's up with that? Yeah, it's a neat
> gimmick and, perhaps with time I could find a use for them, BUT, BUT,
> BUT how is *that* going to make web browsing easier for a newbie, or
> for the _majority_ of users?
>
> Tabs are a bizarre paradox in Epiphany. They're going for simplicity
> (purportedly) but they throw in a pretty obscure interface hack that
> is bound to confuse the issue and make browsing the web a more
> frustrating experience for someone learning how to use tabs for the
> very first time (and, every other implementation of tabs in
> non-browser apps (aside from some bizarre moving MS preferences panes
> which drove me bonkers because the tabs kept moving around on me) uses
> _fixed_ tabs).
>
In the gedit in dapper, you can move the tabs around.

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Re: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Carey O'Shea
In reply to this post by João Pinto
On Wed, 2006-01-04 at 23:57 +0000, João Pinto wrote:
> I don't know much about Epiphany (I have only tested it a few times),
> but judging from the wikki the advantages are mainly about GNOME
> integration (and the always funny crash comparison).

The one thing I liked Epiphany was the nice GNOME icons/theme as a
browser. However, Firefox looks just as "integrated" with GNOME when
using theme: http://gnomefx.mozdev.org. Any comments on this theme being
default? Makes GNOME look more streamlined, takes up less screen
real-estate and you still get all the advantages of Firefox.

(My apologies if posts like this should be on some other list like say
ubuntu-art, just let me know if that is so).



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Re: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

MadMan2k
Carey O'Shea wrote:
> The one thing I liked Epiphany was the nice GNOME icons/theme as a
> browser. However, Firefox looks just as "integrated" with GNOME when
> using theme: http://gnomefx.mozdev.org. Any comments on this theme being
> default?
this will do as long as the user will stick to the default gnome theme,
but what if he switches?
Epiphany will automatically adopt those icons as well while you will
have to search for an appropriate icon theme on firefox first.
_that_ is what the integration thing is about...

M2k

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Re: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Eric Dunbar
In reply to this post by Carey O'Shea
On 2/11/06, Carey O'Shea <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 2006-01-04 at 23:57 +0000, João Pinto wrote:
> > I don't know much about Epiphany (I have only tested it a few times),
> > but judging from the wikki the advantages are mainly about GNOME
> > integration (and the always funny crash comparison).
>
> The one thing I liked Epiphany was the nice GNOME icons/theme as a
> browser. However, Firefox looks just as "integrated" with GNOME when
> using theme: http://gnomefx.mozdev.org. Any comments on this theme being
> default? Makes GNOME look more streamlined, takes up less screen
> real-estate and you still get all the advantages of Firefox.

My vote is to leave the FireFox theme alone. Keep FF as cross-platform
standarized as possible.

Besides, I don't like the default Ubuntu GNOME theme as much as
YellowDogLinux's default GNOME theme, but, since these are all
personal preferences, YMMV ;-).

Eric.

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Re: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Carlos Ribeiro
In reply to this post by Alexander van Loon
On 1/4/06, Sander van Loon <[hidden email]> wrote:
But what I still don't know is why the Ubuntu devs don't intend or don't
want to replace Firefox with Epiphany by default. Could you please
explain the reasons to me?

My first reaction to this question was "you're kidding, not again". But after reading the entire thread, I see that'a a matter that should be taken seriously.

I believe that Firefox is better than Epiphany. It's a matter of perspective. From the perspective of Gnome, Epiphany would be the clear choice. But Ubuntu is not Gnome; it's a independent distribution, and as such it has to make choices. In fact, it's the choices that actually make up a large part of what the distribution is perceived to be. Ubuntu got to be broadly accepted by a lot of things, and the choices it made (Firefox included) are a large part of that.

If you look at the broad scene, Firefox wins. It's a household name; has a active community of users; has corporate acceptance on a lot of companies. It has a good, proven design. It has a great community, lots of add ons. It offers good performance. It's taken seriously by the mainstream press. Heck, it's taken seriously by Microsoft itself -- and I say this as a compliment. One may disagree with one or other argument, but in general, they all stand up to examination.

All these arguments may sound like marketing fluff. But it isn't. It's important to understand why. Ubuntu is making choices on behalf of its users. Do not take me wrong, but Epiphany does not offer anything really big besides Gnome integration, which -- for the most part -- does not matter for the average user. Also, changing things midway is bad; it's confusing for the users. On principle it's something that should only be done for very compelling reasons, and I sincerely believe that this is not the case with Epiphany.



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Re: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

John Nilsson
On Sat, 2006-02-11 at 22:22 -0200, Carlos Ribeiro wrote:
> I believe that Firefox is better than Epiphany. It's a matter of
> perspective. From the perspective of Gnome, Epiphany would be the
> clear choice. But Ubuntu is not Gnome; it's a independent
> distribution, and as such it has to make choices. In fact, it's the
> choices that actually make up a large part of what the distribution is
> perceived to be. Ubuntu got to be broadly accepted by a lot of things,
> and the choices it made (Firefox included) are a large part of that.

Would it be possible to ship Firefox with the "Crash Recovery"
extension? Even better if it's fixed so that tabs are restored in the
separate windows they where opened in from the beginning.

I'm not sure if it's Dapper or me, but Firefox is really unstable ATM.

The other feature of Epiphany I miss in Firefox is the "Open with..."
dialog. It should be the same application chooser as with nautilus not
the file chooser as it is with Firefox.


If those two issues are fixed I belive all other arguments is just about
taste.

Regards,
John


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Re: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Lee Revell
On Sun, 2006-02-12 at 06:36 +0100, John Nilsson wrote:
> I'm not sure if it's Dapper or me, but Firefox is really unstable ATM.

FWIW I have been having similar problems lately - lots of stalls and
hangs.  If I use the middle button to open a link in a new tab, the
current page stalls for several seconds (can't scroll).  It seems to be
worse the past few weeks.

Lee


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Re: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Emilio Jesús Gallego
 Arias
Hi,

Lee Revell <[hidden email]> writes:
> On Sun, 2006-02-12 at 06:36 +0100, John Nilsson wrote:
>> I'm not sure if it's Dapper or me, but Firefox is really unstable ATM.
Flash + Sound makes the browser hang every minute ATM.

> FWIW I have been having similar problems lately - lots of stalls and
> hangs.  If I use the middle button to open a link in a new tab, the
> current page stalls for several seconds (can't scroll).  It seems to be
> worse the past few weeks.
Are you using tabbrowser extensions? I had similar troubles until past
week I got tired and uninstalled the extension. Now firefox works like
a charm.

Regards,

Emilio


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Re: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Lee Revell
In reply to this post by Lee Revell
On Sun, 2006-02-12 at 07:15 +0100, Emilio Jesús Gallego Arias wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Lee Revell <[hidden email]> writes:
> > On Sun, 2006-02-12 at 06:36 +0100, John Nilsson wrote:
> >> I'm not sure if it's Dapper or me, but Firefox is really unstable ATM.
> Flash + Sound makes the browser hang every minute ATM.
>

Yep that could be it - I installed "click to play" to deal with Flash
ads in Epiphany and it drastically sped things up.  I'll try that.

It really seems that there's some "single-threaded" behavior going on -
activity in a hidden tab "stalls" the current tab.

> > FWIW I have been having similar problems lately - lots of stalls and
> > hangs.  If I use the middle button to open a link in a new tab, the
> > current page stalls for several seconds (can't scroll).  It seems to be
> > worse the past few weeks.
> Are you using tabbrowser extensions? I had similar troubles until past
> week I got tired and uninstalled the extension. Now firefox works like
> a charm.
>

Nope, my Extensions window is completely empty.

> Regards,
>
> Emilio
>


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Re: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Miles Lane
In reply to this post by MadMan2k
On 2/11/06, MadMan2k <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Carey O'Shea wrote:
> > The one thing I liked Epiphany was the nice GNOME icons/theme as a
> > browser. However, Firefox looks just as "integrated" with GNOME when
> > using theme: http://gnomefx.mozdev.org. Any comments on this theme being
> > default?
> this will do as long as the user will stick to the default gnome theme,
> but what if he switches?
> Epiphany will automatically adopt those icons as well while you will
> have to search for an appropriate icon theme on firefox first.
> _that_ is what the integration thing is about...

Why, oh why, do some Gnome people insist on cramming their frickin
UI choices down user's throats?  Look, people would not be downloading
and installing themes unless they preferred them!
For what it's worth, I think the gnomefx icons are ghastly.
The Nuvola, Lush and Clearlooks sets are great, that is just my opinion.
Gnome has some excellent graphics.  Obviously, people like choice.
What I have to wonder is why theming hasn't been enabled for Epiphany.
Epiphany, AKA the browser that strips out the flexibility and user
empowerment of Firefox.  Great.  Another advance for Gnome usability.

Not.
           Miles

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Re: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Lionel Dricot (aka Ploum)
I'm not sure that this list is the best place for this discussion.

I don't see any new argument nor interesting ideas. It's becoming, like always, a deaf-discussion : "I prefer red !  But I prefer blue. Red is better. No, it's not, because I prefer blue".

So, I suggest to discuss this on the forum :

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=93219

and to read/complete the related wiki page :

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EpiphanyDefaultBrowser



On 12/02/06, Miles Lane <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2/11/06, MadMan2k <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Carey O'Shea wrote:
> > The one thing I liked Epiphany was the nice GNOME icons/theme as a
> > browser. However, Firefox looks just as "integrated" with GNOME when
> > using theme: http://gnomefx.mozdev.org. Any comments on this theme being
> > default?
> this will do as long as the user will stick to the default gnome theme,
> but what if he switches?
> Epiphany will automatically adopt those icons as well while you will
> have to search for an appropriate icon theme on firefox first.
> _that_ is what the integration thing is about...

Why, oh why, do some Gnome people insist on cramming their frickin
UI choices down user's throats?  Look, people would not be downloading
and installing themes unless they preferred them!
For what it's worth, I think the gnomefx icons are ghastly.
The Nuvola, Lush and Clearlooks sets are great, that is just my opinion.
Gnome has some excellent graphics.  Obviously, people like choice.
What I have to wonder is why theming hasn't been enabled for Epiphany.
Epiphany, AKA the browser that strips out the flexibility and user
empowerment of Firefox.  Great.  Another advance for Gnome usability.

Not.
           Miles

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Bad "open with" dialogue in firefox (was "what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?")

Matthew East
In reply to this post by John Nilsson
cc: Desktop list

On Sun, 2006-02-12 at 06:36 +0100, John Nilsson wrote:
> On Sat, 2006-02-11 at 22:22 -0200, Carlos Ribeiro wrote:

> The other feature of Epiphany I miss in Firefox is the "Open with..."
> dialog. It should be the same application chooser as with nautilus not
> the file chooser as it is with Firefox.

Yes, this is a shocking usability problem.
https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/mozilla-firefox/+bug/24789


This spec[1] seems to suggest that it is a goal for dapper, but I don't
think there has been any improvement made yet.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DefaultApplicationsFirefox

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Re: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Alejandro Bonilla Beeche
In reply to this post by Miles Lane
On Sun, 2006-02-12 at 02:01 -0500, Miles Lane wrote:
> On 2/11/06, MadMan2k <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Carey O'Shea wrote:

To comment on this thread one more thing:

HONESTLY, how many people would really select Epiphany over Firefox?

Let's be real, I'm not looking for people to vote, but I could bet at
least 80% would like FF over Epi.

.Alejandro



> > > The one thing I liked Epiphany was the nice GNOME icons/theme as a
> > > browser. However, Firefox looks just as "integrated" with GNOME when
> > > using theme: http://gnomefx.mozdev.org. Any comments on this theme being
> > > default?
> > this will do as long as the user will stick to the default gnome theme,
> > but what if he switches?
> > Epiphany will automatically adopt those icons as well while you will
> > have to search for an appropriate icon theme on firefox first.
> > _that_ is what the integration thing is about...
>
> Why, oh why, do some Gnome people insist on cramming their frickin
> UI choices down user's throats?  Look, people would not be downloading
> and installing themes unless they preferred them!
> For what it's worth, I think the gnomefx icons are ghastly.
> The Nuvola, Lush and Clearlooks sets are great, that is just my opinion.
> Gnome has some excellent graphics.  Obviously, people like choice.
> What I have to wonder is why theming hasn't been enabled for Epiphany.
> Epiphany, AKA the browser that strips out the flexibility and user
> empowerment of Firefox.  Great.  Another advance for Gnome usability.
>
> Not.
>            Miles
>


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Re: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Lee Revell
On Sun, 2006-02-12 at 10:32 -0600, Alejandro Bonilla wrote:

> On Sun, 2006-02-12 at 02:01 -0500, Miles Lane wrote:
> > On 2/11/06, MadMan2k <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Carey O'Shea wrote:
>
> To comment on this thread one more thing:
>
> HONESTLY, how many people would really select Epiphany over Firefox?
>
> Let's be real, I'm not looking for people to vote, but I could bet at
> least 80% would like FF over Epi.
>

IMHO it's a non-starter - Epi is simply missing too many features that
Firefox users will expect.  Changing the default browser will be seen as
a regression.

Lee


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Re: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

James "Doc" Livingston
In reply to this post by Alejandro Bonilla Beeche
On Sun, 2006-02-12 at 10:32 -0600, Alejandro Bonilla wrote:
> HONESTLY, how many people would really select Epiphany over Firefox?
>
> Let's be real, I'm not looking for people to vote, but I could bet at
> least 80% would like FF over Epi.

A while back, a poll was added to the endless Ephy vs FF forum thread.
From memory it was something like 70% Firefox, 20% Epiphany and 10%
Opera.

The debate then turned on to whether those results actually meant
anything. There were plenty of claims about them, but the two important
ones were that anyone who voted would install their default anyway, and
that Epiphany was better for the people who didn't care.


Whether those numbers are valid or not could still be debated.


Cheers,

James "Doc" Livingston
(who is try very hard to not get involved in the debate)
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Re: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Christopher Houdeshell
James Livingston wrote:

>On Sun, 2006-02-12 at 10:32 -0600, Alejandro Bonilla wrote:
>  
>
>>HONESTLY, how many people would really select Epiphany over Firefox?
>>
>>Let's be real, I'm not looking for people to vote, but I could bet at
>>least 80% would like FF over Epi.
>>    
>>
>
>A while back, a poll was added to the endless Ephy vs FF forum thread.
>From memory it was something like 70% Firefox, 20% Epiphany and 10%
>Opera.
>
>The debate then turned on to whether those results actually meant
>anything. There were plenty of claims about them, but the two important
>ones were that anyone who voted would install their default anyway, and
>that Epiphany was better for the people who didn't care.
>
>
>Whether those numbers are valid or not could still be debated.
>
>
>Cheers,
>
>James "Doc" Livingston
>(who is try very hard to not get involved in the debate)
>  
>
To settling the debate about this vs. that, why not make it a choice in
the installer?  Add this choice along with many other choices. Sounds
like a simple fix to the discussion and any prior or later conversations
about I perfer vs. you perfer.

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Re: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

Lee Revell
In reply to this post by James "Doc" Livingston
On Mon, 2006-02-13 at 11:33 +1100, James Livingston wrote:

> On Sun, 2006-02-12 at 10:32 -0600, Alejandro Bonilla wrote:
> > HONESTLY, how many people would really select Epiphany over Firefox?
> >
> > Let's be real, I'm not looking for people to vote, but I could bet at
> > least 80% would like FF over Epi.
>
> A while back, a poll was added to the endless Ephy vs FF forum thread.
> From memory it was something like 70% Firefox, 20% Epiphany and 10%
> Opera.
>
> The debate then turned on to whether those results actually meant
> anything. There were plenty of claims about them, but the two important
> ones were that anyone who voted would install their default anyway, and
> that Epiphany was better for the people who didn't care.
>
>
> Whether those numbers are valid or not could still be debated.

How do I get FF style ad blocking (right click, "Block images from this
server") in Epi?

Lee


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Re: what is the reason for not making epiphany the default browser?

James "Doc" Livingston
On Sun, 2006-02-12 at 19:52 -0500, Lee Revell wrote:
> How do I get FF style ad blocking (right click, "Block images from this
> server") in Epi?

If that is really what you want to do, install Firefox, install the
adblock extension, and then learn regular expressions.


Most people don't actually want to do that, what they want is to block
ads. Which usually entails downloading FilterSet.G, enjoying their
mostly ad-free pages, and living with the occasional one that slips
through.

For those people, you use Tools->Extensions and check "Ad
Blocker" (which comes with FilterSet.G).


Alternately you could design a user interface for ad blocking that
doesn't make you want to claw your eyes out, and submit that to the
Epiphany developers - who might then consider adding a UI to ad
blocking.


Cheers,

James "Doc" Livingston
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