[wiki] Move instead of delete?

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[wiki] Move instead of delete?

Gunnar Hjalmarsson
The page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag/Deletion/List currently
lists 124 deletion candidates. I'm slowly realizing that there may be a
resistance within the team to irrevocably delete pages that people once
put a lot of effort into.

One idea is to move the deletion candidates to a hidden location as a
first step. For instance, the page I have picked on lately:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LocaleConf

could be moved to

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DeletedPages/LocaleConf

Then, if someone screams, we would have the option to reverse the action.

Obviously we should try to prevent that DeletedPages is linked to from
other places on the wiki, and a suitable entry in
https://help.ubuntu.com/robots.txt would be highly recommended to
prevent 'deleted' pages from being indexed by the serious search engine
services.

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Re: [wiki] Move instead of delete?

Elizabeth K. Joseph
On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Gunnar Hjalmarsson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag/Deletion/List currently
> lists 124 deletion candidates. I'm slowly realizing that there may be a
> resistance within the team to irrevocably delete pages that people once
> put a lot of effort into.
>
> One idea is to move the deletion candidates to a hidden location as a
> first step. For instance, the page I have picked on lately:
>
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LocaleConf
>
> could be moved to
>
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DeletedPages/LocaleConf
>
> Then, if someone screams, we would have the option to reverse the action.
>
> Obviously we should try to prevent that DeletedPages is linked to from
> other places on the wiki, and a suitable entry in
> https://help.ubuntu.com/robots.txt would be highly recommended to
> prevent 'deleted' pages from being indexed by the serious search engine
> services.

The wiki has an option to Redirect pages, so I'm much more inclined to
just edit a "To be deleted" page to put in a redirect in the body,
even if it redirects to the home page of the wiki. This way we
preserve history of the page in case someone needs/wants to resurrect
it some day or needs access to the history for some reason.

Format:

#REDIRECT PageName

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Re: [wiki] Move instead of delete?

Gunnar Hjalmarsson
On 2013-12-16 02:41, Elizabeth Krumbach Joseph wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Gunnar Hjalmarsson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> One idea is to move the deletion candidates to a hidden location as a
>> first step. For instance, the page I have picked on lately:
>>
>> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LocaleConf
>>
>> could be moved to
>>
>> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DeletedPages/LocaleConf
>>
>> Then, if someone screams, we would have the option to reverse the action.
>
> The wiki has an option to Redirect pages, so I'm much more inclined to
> just edit a "To be deleted" page to put in a redirect in the body,
> even if it redirects to the home page of the wiki. This way we
> preserve history of the page in case someone needs/wants to resurrect
> it some day or needs access to the history for some reason.
>
> Format:
>
> #REDIRECT PageName

It sounds like that would serve the same purpose in an easier way. Are
such redirects permanent HTTP redirects, so the URL of a 'deleted' page
is removed from the search engine indexes?

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Re: [wiki] Move instead of delete?

Elizabeth K. Joseph
On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Gunnar Hjalmarsson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2013-12-16 02:41, Elizabeth Krumbach Joseph wrote:
>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Gunnar Hjalmarsson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> One idea is to move the deletion candidates to a hidden location as a
>>> first step. For instance, the page I have picked on lately:
>>>
>>> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LocaleConf
>>>
>>> could be moved to
>>>
>>> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DeletedPages/LocaleConf
>>>
>>> Then, if someone screams, we would have the option to reverse the action.
>>
>> The wiki has an option to Redirect pages, so I'm much more inclined to
>> just edit a "To be deleted" page to put in a redirect in the body,
>> even if it redirects to the home page of the wiki. This way we
>> preserve history of the page in case someone needs/wants to resurrect
>> it some day or needs access to the history for some reason.
>>
>> Format:
>>
>> #REDIRECT PageName
>
> It sounds like that would serve the same purpose in an easier way. Are
> such redirects permanent HTTP redirects, so the URL of a 'deleted' page
> is removed from the search engine indexes?

Good question! It's a "301 Moved Permanently" so yes, it should be
removed from search indexes once the redirect is set up.

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Re: [wiki] Move instead of delete?

Gunnar Hjalmarsson
On 2013-12-16 03:35, Elizabeth Krumbach Joseph wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Gunnar Hjalmarsson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 2013-12-16 02:41, Elizabeth Krumbach Joseph wrote:
>>>
>>> Format:
>>>
>>> #REDIRECT PageName
>>
>> It sounds like that would serve the same purpose in an easier way. Are
>> such redirects permanent HTTP redirects, so the URL of a 'deleted' page
>> is removed from the search engine indexes?
>
> Good question! It's a "301 Moved Permanently" so yes, it should be
> removed from search indexes once the redirect is set up.

Nice! Then how about creating

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PageDeleted

basically saying that the page the visitor tried to reach has been
deleted, and informing them on how to contact the team for the case they
want to request that it is resurrected?

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Re: [wiki] Move instead of delete?

Jonathan Aquilina
In reply to this post by Elizabeth K. Joseph
I agree though moving pages to an archive and putting a message on them saying hey this page is out of date or something of the sort, and putting them in an archive is the best way to go.


On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:35 AM, Elizabeth Krumbach Joseph <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Gunnar Hjalmarsson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 2013-12-16 02:41, Elizabeth Krumbach Joseph wrote:
>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Gunnar Hjalmarsson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> One idea is to move the deletion candidates to a hidden location as a
>>> first step. For instance, the page I have picked on lately:
>>>
>>> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LocaleConf
>>>
>>> could be moved to
>>>
>>> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DeletedPages/LocaleConf
>>>
>>> Then, if someone screams, we would have the option to reverse the action.
>>
>> The wiki has an option to Redirect pages, so I'm much more inclined to
>> just edit a "To be deleted" page to put in a redirect in the body,
>> even if it redirects to the home page of the wiki. This way we
>> preserve history of the page in case someone needs/wants to resurrect
>> it some day or needs access to the history for some reason.
>>
>> Format:
>>
>> #REDIRECT PageName
>
> It sounds like that would serve the same purpose in an easier way. Are
> such redirects permanent HTTP redirects, so the URL of a 'deleted' page
> is removed from the search engine indexes?

Good question! It's a "301 Moved Permanently" so yes, it should be
removed from search indexes once the redirect is set up.

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Re: [wiki] Move instead of delete?

Matthew East-4
In reply to this post by Gunnar Hjalmarsson


On 16 Dec 2013 01:34, "Gunnar Hjalmarsson" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag/Deletion/List currently
> lists 124 deletion candidates. I'm slowly realizing that there may be a
> resistance within the team to irrevocably delete pages that people once
> put a lot of effort into.
>
> One idea is to move the deletion candidates to a hidden location as a
> first step.

For what it's worth, if the only concern is not losing work, deleted pages can still be restored and viewed if necessary from the page history.

I think the main reason for such a lot of pages tagged for deletion is an absence of editors to review the list. If a conscious decision had been made not to delete such pages, the tag would have been removed.

Matt


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Re: [wiki] Move instead of delete?

Tom Davies
In reply to this post by Gunnar Hjalmarsson
Hi :)
I really like this idea!  [tips hat at Elizabeth and Gunnar]

Changing the page to a redirect and then having that redirect go to a
common page that explains the situation, and how to get at the
information that used to be on the page (via history) seems to cover
most good reasons for reluctance to delete.

I think 1 of the concerns is that over the years people might have a
stock-pile of useful bookmarks, or links that appear in old magazine
articles or even some links from other pages would be broken if the
page really was deleted or moved.  Redirects is a brilliant idea
because it retains everything, including context.

Previously i had been a fan of moving the pages and using the
robots.txt would have been a brilliant finesse but i worried about
possibly losing the history and breaking external links into our
documentation.  Sorry Jonathan!

Would it be possible to create a list of the pages that were handled
this way and the date that they were set as redirects?  Maybe a space
for people to add comments?  I think it would take quite a long time
to really notice if such pages really hadn't caused any problems and
thus really were suitable for deletion.  Perhaps more like a couple of
years rather than 6 months!  Having the list and showing the dates
would make that easier to track.

Another advantage of this system might be that in the future people
feel more comfortable about effectively getting rid of pages in this
way, allowing much more rampant pruning.
Regards from
Tom :)



On 16 December 2013 02:58, Gunnar Hjalmarsson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2013-12-16 03:35, Elizabeth Krumbach Joseph wrote:
>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Gunnar Hjalmarsson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 2013-12-16 02:41, Elizabeth Krumbach Joseph wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Format:
>>>>
>>>> #REDIRECT PageName
>>>
>>> It sounds like that would serve the same purpose in an easier way. Are
>>> such redirects permanent HTTP redirects, so the URL of a 'deleted' page
>>> is removed from the search engine indexes?
>>
>> Good question! It's a "301 Moved Permanently" so yes, it should be
>> removed from search indexes once the redirect is set up.
>
> Nice! Then how about creating
>
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PageDeleted
>
> basically saying that the page the visitor tried to reach has been
> deleted, and informing them on how to contact the team for the case they
> want to request that it is resurrected?
>
> --
> Gunnar Hjalmarsson
> https://launchpad.net/~gunnarhj
>
>
> --
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Re: [wiki] Move instead of delete?

Jonathan Aquilina
Then in that case why not move the older pages to a wiki archive?


On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Tom Davies <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi :)
I really like this idea!  [tips hat at Elizabeth and Gunnar]

Changing the page to a redirect and then having that redirect go to a
common page that explains the situation, and how to get at the
information that used to be on the page (via history) seems to cover
most good reasons for reluctance to delete.

I think 1 of the concerns is that over the years people might have a
stock-pile of useful bookmarks, or links that appear in old magazine
articles or even some links from other pages would be broken if the
page really was deleted or moved.  Redirects is a brilliant idea
because it retains everything, including context.

Previously i had been a fan of moving the pages and using the
robots.txt would have been a brilliant finesse but i worried about
possibly losing the history and breaking external links into our
documentation.  Sorry Jonathan!

Would it be possible to create a list of the pages that were handled
this way and the date that they were set as redirects?  Maybe a space
for people to add comments?  I think it would take quite a long time
to really notice if such pages really hadn't caused any problems and
thus really were suitable for deletion.  Perhaps more like a couple of
years rather than 6 months!  Having the list and showing the dates
would make that easier to track.

Another advantage of this system might be that in the future people
feel more comfortable about effectively getting rid of pages in this
way, allowing much more rampant pruning.
Regards from
Tom :)



On 16 December 2013 02:58, Gunnar Hjalmarsson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 2013-12-16 03:35, Elizabeth Krumbach Joseph wrote:
>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Gunnar Hjalmarsson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On 2013-12-16 02:41, Elizabeth Krumbach Joseph wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Format:
>>>>
>>>> #REDIRECT PageName
>>>
>>> It sounds like that would serve the same purpose in an easier way. Are
>>> such redirects permanent HTTP redirects, so the URL of a 'deleted' page
>>> is removed from the search engine indexes?
>>
>> Good question! It's a "301 Moved Permanently" so yes, it should be
>> removed from search indexes once the redirect is set up.
>
> Nice! Then how about creating
>
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PageDeleted
>
> basically saying that the page the visitor tried to reach has been
> deleted, and informing them on how to contact the team for the case they
> want to request that it is resurrected?
>
> --
> Gunnar Hjalmarsson
> https://launchpad.net/~gunnarhj
>
>
> --
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Re: [wiki] Move instead of delete?

Gunnar Hjalmarsson
On 2013-12-16 13:09, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
> Then in that case why not move the older pages to a wiki archive?

Wouldn't that make them just as available and searchable as before?

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Re: [wiki] Move instead of delete?

Svetlana Belkin
In reply to this post by Tom Davies
On 12/16/2013 04:11 AM, Tom Davies wrote:
> Would it be possible to create a list of the pages that were handled
> this way and the date that they were set as redirects?  Maybe a space
> for people to add comments?  I think it would take quite a long time
> to really notice if such pages really hadn't caused any problems and
> thus really were suitable for deletion.  Perhaps more like a couple of
> years rather than 6 months!  Having the list and showing the dates
> would make that easier to track.

Can a tag be created for redirects?  Or a category?

I think the problem for a comment system is that no one will see the
comments unless it is a section on each page, since "###text" is a
comment within the code of the page and is only seen when you are in the
edit mode.

Svetlana Belkin
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Re: [wiki] Move instead of delete?

Jonathan Aquilina
In reply to this post by Gunnar Hjalmarsson
Yes but what if people are still running legacy systems with an EOL release or have something they need to maintain on an EOL release


On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Gunnar Hjalmarsson <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2013-12-16 13:09, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
> Then in that case why not move the older pages to a wiki archive?

Wouldn't that make them just as available and searchable as before?

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Re: [wiki] Move instead of delete?

PrivateVoid
In reply to this post by Tom Davies
A lot of great ideas in this thread.

After doing some work on the wiki I do think there are cases that deletion fits.

1.  Page was created, but never got past "This page will be for [product x]"
2.  Pages that cover project/software that has been discontinued (no longer in development) and was for a version of Ubuntu that was more than one LTS ago.
3.  Pages that were setup as redirects three or more years in the past.

Most of the cases I have had are #1.

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Re: [wiki] Move instead of delete?

Jonathan Aquilina
Speaking of redirects. Why not redirect everyone that goes to an page which is for an EOL version to how they can upgrade?


On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:24 PM, Charles Profitt <[hidden email]> wrote:
A lot of great ideas in this thread.

After doing some work on the wiki I do think there are cases that deletion fits.

1.  Page was created, but never got past "This page will be for [product x]"
2.  Pages that cover project/software that has been discontinued (no longer in development) and was for a version of Ubuntu that was more than one LTS ago.
3.  Pages that were setup as redirects three or more years in the past.

Most of the cases I have had are #1.

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Re: [wiki] Move instead of delete?

Gunnar Hjalmarsson
In reply to this post by PrivateVoid
On 2013-12-16 15:24, Charles Profitt wrote:
> A lot of great ideas in this thread.
>
> After doing some work on the wiki I do think there are cases that deletion fits.
>
> 1.  Page was created, but never got past "This page will be for [product x]"
> 2.  Pages that cover project/software that has been discontinued (no longer in development) and was for a version of Ubuntu that was more than one LTS ago.
> 3.  Pages that were setup as redirects three or more years in the past.
>
> Most of the cases I have had are #1.

You didn't mention quality, irrespective of applicable version. Was that
intentional?

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Re: [wiki] Move instead of delete?

Gunnar Hjalmarsson
In reply to this post by Jonathan Aquilina
On 2013-12-16 14:13, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
> Yes but what if people are still running legacy systems with an EOL
> release or have something they need to maintain on an EOL release

Actually, I think we have different kind of pages in mind when we talk
about this. I for one am currently thinking of bad pages, at first hand.

As regards pages that are perfectly fine for certain versions, but cease
to apply as from a particular version, are they really deletion
candidates? Isn't it sufficient to clearly state - with tags or in some
other way - which version(s) they apply to? And let them stay.

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Re: [wiki] Move instead of delete?

cprofitt-2
In reply to this post by Gunnar Hjalmarsson
On Mon, 2013-12-16 at 18:40 +0100, Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:

> On 2013-12-16 15:24, Charles Profitt wrote:
> > A lot of great ideas in this thread.
> >
> > After doing some work on the wiki I do think there are cases that deletion fits.
> >
> > 1.  Page was created, but never got past "This page will be for [product x]"
> > 2.  Pages that cover project/software that has been discontinued (no longer in development) and was for a version of Ubuntu that was more than one LTS ago.
> > 3.  Pages that were setup as redirects three or more years in the past.
> >
> > Most of the cases I have had are #1.
>
> You didn't mention quality, irrespective of applicable version. Was that
> intentional?

I didn't mention quality because I would think a page with quality
issues would likely not be moved, but improved.

Charles


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Re: [wiki] Move instead of delete?

Pasi Lallinaho-3
In reply to this post by Svetlana Belkin
On 16/12/13 15:06, Svetlana Belkin wrote:
> On 12/16/2013 04:11 AM, Tom Davies wrote:
>> Would it be possible to create a list of the pages that were handled
>> this way and the date that they were set as redirects?  Maybe a space
>> for people to add comments?  I think it would take quite a long time
>> to really notice if such pages really hadn't caused any problems and
>> thus really were suitable for deletion.  Perhaps more like a couple of
>> years rather than 6 months!  Having the list and showing the dates
>> would make that easier to track.
> Can a tag be created for redirects?  Or a category?

This doesn't exactly answer your question, but having poked the wiki for
some time now, I've found out that a page with a redirect can also have
a tag, category or other content, and this content will be searchable.

I guess the best policy for deleted pages would be to do a standard
redirection to "you hit a deleted page..." page, with a tag or category
that indicates the reason why the page was deleted.

We could set a, say 5-10 sec pause before redirection, and in that time,
the user would be shown the tag that briefly explains why the page is
deleted, telling they will be redirected in some time and last but not
least, show a link to the page history so if they knew they want to
access the page content anyway, they can do it relatively easily.

> I think the problem for a comment system is that no one will see the
> comments unless it is a section on each page, since "###text" is a
> comment within the code of the page and is only seen when you are in the
> edit mode.
>
> Svetlana Belkin

Cheers,
Pasi

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Re: [wiki] Move instead of delete?

Svetlana Belkin
On 12/16/2013 05:19 PM, Pasi Lallinaho wrote:

> This doesn't exactly answer your question, but having poked the wiki for
> some time now, I've found out that a page with a redirect can also have
> a tag, category or other content, and this content will be searchable.
>
> I guess the best policy for deleted pages would be to do a standard
> redirection to "you hit a deleted page..." page, with a tag or category
> that indicates the reason why the page was deleted.
>
> We could set a, say 5-10 sec pause before redirection, and in that time,
> the user would be shown the tag that briefly explains why the page is
> deleted, telling they will be redirected in some time and last but not
> least, show a link to the page history so if they knew they want to
> access the page content anyway, they can do it relatively easily.

Is it possible to have the reason on that redirected message?  That
could work if it's possible.

Svetlana Belkin
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Re: [wiki] Move instead of delete?

Pasi Lallinaho-3
On 17/12/13 00:43, Svetlana Belkin wrote:

> On 12/16/2013 05:19 PM, Pasi Lallinaho wrote:
>> This doesn't exactly answer your question, but having poked the wiki for
>> some time now, I've found out that a page with a redirect can also have
>> a tag, category or other content, and this content will be searchable.
>>
>> I guess the best policy for deleted pages would be to do a standard
>> redirection to "you hit a deleted page..." page, with a tag or category
>> that indicates the reason why the page was deleted.
>>
>> We could set a, say 5-10 sec pause before redirection, and in that time,
>> the user would be shown the tag that briefly explains why the page is
>> deleted, telling they will be redirected in some time and last but not
>> least, show a link to the page history so if they knew they want to
>> access the page content anyway, they can do it relatively easily.
> Is it possible to have the reason on that redirected message?  That
> could work if it's possible.
>
> Svetlana Belkin

Excatly what I said; yes.

Pasi

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Pasi Lallinaho (knome)                      » http://open.knome.fi/
Leader of Shimmer Project and Xubuntu       » http://shimmerproject.org/
Graphic artist, webdesigner, Ubuntu member  » http://xubuntu.org/


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