wiped disk - no longer bootable

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Re: wiped disk - no longer bootable

Liam Proven
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 20:21, Volker Wysk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> So Gparted is a regular program, not something that is to be booted
> ("Boot Gparted"). That was confusing.

:-o

Yes! How do you normally partition disks?

> I'm trying to repair my SSD (/dev/sdb) now, using GParted. I select
> "create partition table" in the "device" menu. It asks for which
> partition table type to use, but "MBR" isn't listed. "msdos" is the
> default, "gpt" is in the list.

MBR means Master Boot Record. That *is* the MS-DOS partitioning scheme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_boot_record

> So I just chose GPT. (Googled a little about the difference, and it
> tells you that MBR is just outdated in regard to GPT).

Not at all. Not even a little bit.

GPT is newer, but it is only needed for disks >2 GB, and only UEFI
machines can boot from GPT. (Officially -- there are workarounds, I
believe.)

Macs and Itanium servers use GPT. MBR is more standard on PCs and
works with both BIOS and UEFI.

I generally use MBR for this reason.

I do not want to be rude but I have to ask.

If you do not know basic stuff like this, why are you trying to use
fancy enterprise-server stuff like LVM, cache disks, disk encryption
and so on? This is advanced level, rocket-science stuff!

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Re: wiped disk - no longer bootable

Gene Heskett-2
In reply to this post by ubuntu-users mailing list
On Tuesday 09 July 2019 13:18:25 Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users wrote:

> I'm in favour of using a mobo for around 10 years, actually my last
> mobo was borked after around 7 or 8 years. I've got the skills to
> repair broken hardware myself, let alone that a friend of mine has got
> way more skills than I've got and at work he has got special equipment
> at hand, such as e.g. hot air soldering. However, at some point,
> "borked" is literally for "borked" ;).

That depends on the mobo. I needed to shotgun the caps around the cpu on
an IBM mobo a couple years back and discovered they were using a massive
area of extra thick copper on both sides of the board for heat sinks to
cool the caps. That mobo was simply not repairable because my hot air
tools were burning the foil off the board on one side while trying to
telegraph enough heat to the other, inaccessable side of the board to
free the defective caps. Only a dip in a wave soldering machine would
have freed those parts. IBM can afford one of those, but you or I can
only dream of access to such a production device.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: wiped disk - no longer bootable

Gene Heskett-2
In reply to this post by ubuntu-users mailing list
On Tuesday 09 July 2019 14:38:36 Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users wrote:

> On Tue, 2019-07-09 at 19:52 +0200, Volker Wysk wrote:
> > And now the system boots again! (It's a fresh KISS Ubuntu 19.04.)
>
> Ubuntu GNOME is everything, but KISS ;).
>
> > The installation of Ubuntu was terribly slow. It hung at the message
> > [snip] The counter counted up very slowly. [snip]
>
> Most likely a broken drive, second likely a broken controller of the
> mobo or another part of the mobo is the culprit.
>
> I wouldn't be surprised, if some GNOME shell install or even some
> other Ubuntu flavor wouldn't run on old hardware, but if the
> installation already is slow, then most likely fishy hardware is the
> cause, it's even not much likely that the PEBCAK.
>
> Shouting! Bootcamp mode! Did you replace the fine battery and
> restore/upgarde the BIOS? Assuming you are using several RAM bars, did
> remove all, excepted of one RAM bar and after that did replace the RAM
> bar by one after another RAM bar? That's way more meaningful then
> running Memtest.
>
While in "bootcamp mode" Ralf, its often quite beneficial to remove and
replace the memory, since you are there anyway, run it back in and out
of the sockets, in to fully latched positions and back out, 3 or 4 times
per memory board, just to wear thru the air pollutants and oxidation so
as to re-establish good solid connections. A slightly damp piece of bare
newsprint paper pinched between ones finger and thumb, the damp to
discourage static electricity, and slid the length of the boards
contacts can also be beneficial, just don't use a surface that been
printed on. Ink is less that helpfull.

> "Sustainable future" + "budget" vs "the effort of
> maintenance/troubleshooting + "human mortality".


Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: wiped disk - no longer bootable

Volker Wysk
In reply to this post by Liam Proven

Zitat von Liam Proven <[hidden email]>:

> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 20:21, Volker Wysk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> So Gparted is a regular program, not something that is to be booted
>> ("Boot Gparted"). That was confusing.
>
> :-o
>
> Yes! How do you normally partition disks?

With the ubuntu installer.

>> So I just chose GPT. (Googled a little about the difference, and it
>> tells you that MBR is just outdated in regard to GPT).
>
> Not at all. Not even a little bit.
>
> GPT is newer, but it is only needed for disks >2 GB, and only UEFI
> machines can boot from GPT. (Officially -- there are workarounds, I
> believe.)

My mainboard is old. So it's a BIOS, not UEFI, right? But I had a  
single partition of almost 4 TB. So why did it work?

>
> Macs and Itanium servers use GPT. MBR is more standard on PCs and
> works with both BIOS and UEFI.
>
> I generally use MBR for this reason.

Okay

>
> I do not want to be rude but I have to ask.
>
> If you do not know basic stuff like this, why are you trying to use
> fancy enterprise-server stuff like LVM, cache disks, disk encryption
> and so on? This is advanced level, rocket-science stuff!

I just used the (k)ubuntu installer for LVM and encryption.

Bye
Volker



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Re: wiped disk - no longer bootable

ubuntu-users mailing list
In reply to this post by Gene Heskett-2
On Tue, 2019-07-09 at 19:08 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Only a dip in a wave soldering machine would have freed those parts.
> IBM can afford one of those, but you or I can only dream of access to
> such a production device.

Gene, you don't own one? The slum landlord as well as the German law
don't allow me to break through the load-bearing wall in my flat. So
there's no room for my wave soldering line inside of my flat. It's
stored in moving boxes in my cellar room.

;)



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Re: wiped disk - no longer bootable

ubuntu-users mailing list
In reply to this post by Gene Heskett-2
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 19:08:21 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

>On Tuesday 09 July 2019 13:18:25 Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users wrote:
>
>> I'm in favour of using a mobo for around 10 years, actually my last
>> mobo was borked after around 7 or 8 years. I've got the skills to
>> repair broken hardware myself, let alone that a friend of mine has
>> got way more skills than I've got and at work he has got special
>> equipment at hand, such as e.g. hot air soldering. However, at some
>> point, "borked" is literally for "borked" ;).  
>
>That depends on the mobo. I needed to shotgun the caps around the cpu
>on an IBM mobo a couple years back and discovered they were using a
>massive area of extra thick copper on both sides of the board for heat
>sinks to cool the caps. That mobo was simply not repairable because my
>hot air tools were burning the foil off the board on one side while
>trying to telegraph enough heat to the other, inaccessable side of the
>board to free the defective caps. Only a dip in a wave soldering
>machine would have freed those parts. IBM can afford one of those, but
>you or I can only dream of access to such a production device.
>
>Cheers, Gene Heskett



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Re: wiped disk - no longer bootable

ubuntu-users mailing list
In reply to this post by Gene Heskett-2
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 19:08:21 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>That mobo was simply not repairable because my hot air tools were
>burning the foil off the board on one side while trying to telegraph
>enough heat to the other, inaccessable side of the board to free the
>defective caps.

It's possible to heat both sides, unfortunately the VIAs of multilayer
PCBs tend to be allergic to too much heat, so it's a game of pure
chance.


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Re: wiped disk - no longer bootable

Volker Wysk
In reply to this post by ubuntu-users mailing list

Zitat von Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users <[hidden email]>:

> On Tue, 09 Jul 2019 18:35:14 +0200, Volker Wysk wrote:
>> Zitat von Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users
>>> Don't use encryption, LVM or anything special, such as e.g. raid at
>>> all. At best use MBR for testing purpose and even if you should be
>>> in favour of another FS, stay with ext4 for testing purpose.
>>
>> Okay, that's what I was trying last.
>>
>>> Btw. what ISO are you using, in case of "Ubuntu" consider to try
>>> Xubuntu or Ubuntu Mate, or if you want to stay closer to gnomish
>>> Ubuntu, maybe Ubuntu Budgie, as a gnomish alternative. Just try
>>> anything different of what you were using until now.
>>
>> I'm trying it with vanilla Ubuntu 19.04.
>>
>> When the problem first struck, I was on Kubuntu. Now Ubuntu, but still
>> broken.
>
> In what way is Ubuntu broken?

I mean, the problem still occurs. I don't think Ubuntu is broken.

> I already suspect a hardware failure, but to be completely sure,
> install a 16.04 Xubuntu as well as a 16.04 Ubuntu Mate.
>
> If the 16.04 installs should work, then install a 19.04 Xubuntu and a
> 19.04 Ubuntu Mate.

But how to reproduce the problem? It occurs only sporadicalli. You  
can't be sure that it works, the problem could always not have been  
triggered yet...

I've installed (KISS) ubuntu 19.04 on the HDD and the SSD, and found  
no corruption yet.

%-(

Maybe I need new hardware - that would mean, a new computer.  %-((


bye




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Re: wiped disk - no longer bootable

Mike Marchywka
In reply to this post by ubuntu-users mailing list
On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 09:08:35AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 19:08:21 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >That mobo was simply not repairable because my hot air tools were
> >burning the foil off the board on one side while trying to telegraph
> >enough heat to the other, inaccessable side of the board to free the
> >defective caps.
>
> It's possible to heat both sides, unfortunately the VIAs of multilayer
> PCBs tend to be allergic to too much heat, so it's a game of pure
> chance.

Did these guys go lead free or you know the alloy/ melting point?
How hard is it to get to both sides?
I guess you could hack up the caps, maybe just with pliers,  leaving just
wire and through the holes but that would be a huge mess. Then
just grab the remaining wire with needle nose pliers and
pull it while heating.  

>
>
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Re: wiped disk - no longer bootable

Volker Wysk
In reply to this post by ubuntu-users mailing list

Zitat von Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users <[hidden email]>:

>> The installation of Ubuntu was terribly slow. It hung at the message [snip]
>> The counter counted up very slowly. [snip]
>
> Most likely a broken drive, second likely a broken controller of the
> mobo or another part of the mobo is the culprit.

Now it's fast again.  %-|

> Shouting! Bootcamp mode! Did you replace the fine battery and
> restore/upgarde the BIOS? Assuming you are using several RAM bars, did
> remove all, excepted of one RAM bar and after that did replace the RAM
> bar by one after another RAM bar? That's way more meaningful then
> running Memtest.

The battery has been replaced. And I have only one RAM bar.

I haven't touched the BIOS. I also couldn't find an option to restore  
the BIOS from within the BIOS. How do you restore/upgarde the BIOS?

Bye


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Re: wiped disk - no longer bootable

ubuntu-users mailing list
In reply to this post by Mike Marchywka
On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 07:56:20 +0000, Mike Marchywka wrote:

>On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 09:08:35AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf via
>ubuntu-users wrote:
>> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 19:08:21 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:  
>> >That mobo was simply not repairable because my hot air tools were
>> >burning the foil off the board on one side while trying to telegraph
>> >enough heat to the other, inaccessable side of the board to free the
>> >defective caps.  
>>
>> It's possible to heat both sides, unfortunately the VIAs of
>> multilayer PCBs tend to be allergic to too much heat, so it's a game
>> of pure chance.  
>
>Did these guys go lead free or you know the alloy/ melting point?
>How hard is it to get to both sides?
>I guess you could hack up the caps, maybe just with pliers,  leaving
>just wire and through the holes but that would be a huge mess. Then
>just grab the remaining wire with needle nose pliers and
>pull it while heating.  

The heat isn't evenly spread. Even if you try to vacuum of the solder
with a professional unsoldering station, you probably would pull the
remaining wire and the VIA or as Gene already mentioned, you burn the
PCB and you might damage the conductor path. I tried to solder out
borked caps of my mixing console's SMPS with my less good equipment, a
friend tried at home with a professional unsoldering station from
Weller, it didn't work. At work the friend could use very good
professional hot air equipment and he was able to replace the caps, but
it wasn't easy to do.


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Re: wiped disk - no longer bootable

ubuntu-users mailing list
In reply to this post by Volker Wysk
On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 10:21:50 +0200, Volker Wysk wrote:

>Zitat von Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users
><[hidden email]>:
>
>>> The installation of Ubuntu was terribly slow. It hung at the
>>> message [snip] The counter counted up very slowly. [snip]  
>>
>> Most likely a broken drive, second likely a broken controller of the
>> mobo or another part of the mobo is the culprit.  
>
>Now it's fast again.  %-|
>
>> Shouting! Bootcamp mode! Did you replace the fine battery and
>> restore/upgarde the BIOS? Assuming you are using several RAM bars,
>> did remove all, excepted of one RAM bar and after that did replace
>> the RAM bar by one after another RAM bar? That's way more meaningful
>> then running Memtest.  
>
>The battery has been replaced. And I have only one RAM bar.
>
>I haven't touched the BIOS. I also couldn't find an option to restore  
>the BIOS from within the BIOS. How do you restore/upgarde the BIOS?

That depends on the mobo/BIOS. When replacing the battery you usually
should shortcut two pins to clear everything. Then all settings are
lost, but the BIOS is still the old BIOS. To replace the BIOS modern
mobos, even 10 years old mobos, usually provide an option via USB, if
you should have bad luck, then you need a Windows install or at least a
DOS live media. You could download the BIOS (update) and a user manual
from the mobo vendor's homepage.


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Re: wiped disk - no longer bootable

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Gene Heskett-2
On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 at 01:10, Gene Heskett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> That depends on the mobo. I needed to shotgun the caps around the cpu on
> an IBM mobo a couple years back and discovered they were using a massive
> area of extra thick copper on both sides of the board for heat sinks to
> cool the caps. That mobo was simply not repairable

A friend tried to replace the caps on my iMac G5 a few years ago. Same
problem. :-(

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Re: wiped disk - no longer bootable

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Gene Heskett-2
On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 at 01:40, Gene Heskett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> While in "bootcamp mode" Ralf, its often quite beneficial to remove and
> replace the memory, since you are there anyway, run it back in and out
> of the sockets, in to fully latched positions and back out, 3 or 4 times
> per memory board, just to wear thru the air pollutants and oxidation so
> as to re-establish good solid connections.

Also a good idea. I second this.

I haven't tried the newspaper thing but I will next time. When I've
wanted to clean SIMM or DIMM contacts, I used a pencil eraser. The
soft kind, *not* the hard gritty kind for trying to erase ink.

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Re: wiped disk - no longer bootable

Mike Marchywka
In reply to this post by ubuntu-users mailing list
On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 11:45:05AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 07:56:20 +0000, Mike Marchywka wrote:
> >On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 09:08:35AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf via
> >ubuntu-users wrote:
> >> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 19:08:21 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:  
> >> >That mobo was simply not repairable because my hot air tools were
> >> >burning the foil off the board on one side while trying to telegraph
> >> >enough heat to the other, inaccessable side of the board to free the
> >> >defective caps.  
> >>
> >> It's possible to heat both sides, unfortunately the VIAs of
> >> multilayer PCBs tend to be allergic to too much heat, so it's a game
> >> of pure chance.  
> >
> >Did these guys go lead free or you know the alloy/ melting point?
> >How hard is it to get to both sides?
> >I guess you could hack up the caps, maybe just with pliers,  leaving
> >just wire and through the holes but that would be a huge mess. Then
> >just grab the remaining wire with needle nose pliers and
> >pull it while heating.  
>
> The heat isn't evenly spread. Even if you try to vacuum of the solder
> with a professional unsoldering station, you probably would pull the
> remaining wire and the VIA or as Gene already mentioned, you burn the

Unsoldering a ground plane may be a problem but it gets worse if the
melting temp of the solder has increased- curious what
they wave solder these days. Eutectic Pb/Sn would be great but
the new alloys may even have issues with their interactions
with the board metal- maybe making them more prone to rip on
desoldering. For that matter maybe even the flux chemistry matter.
Even with tight tolerances the facotry inserted leads should be
pretty straight and allow solder to flow in and then pull the thing
out.
I guess if it is a really odd solder chemistry maybe there is a
selective etch that won't wreck everything nearby.

> PCB and you might damage the conductor path. I tried to solder out
> borked caps of my mixing console's SMPS with my less good equipment, a
> friend tried at home with a professional unsoldering station from
> Weller, it didn't work. At work the friend could use very good
> professional hot air equipment and he was able to replace the caps, but
> it wasn't easy to do.
>
>
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Re: wiped disk - no longer bootable

Liam Proven
In reply to this post by Volker Wysk
On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 at 08:34, Volker Wysk <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > Yes! How do you normally partition disks?
>
> With the ubuntu installer.

:-o

It works but it's so limited that I normally do it myself with Gparted first.

> My mainboard is old. So it's a BIOS, not UEFI, right? But I had a
> single partition of almost 4 TB. So why did it work?

Like I said: there are workarounds. GPT has a miniature fake MBR
embedded in it so that old machines at least see the disk, so people
don't accidentally erase the thing in the mistaken belief that it's
empty.

This fake MBR can be used to embed a small bootable partition, I
believe. I have not tried. I do not own (at home or work) any disks
big enough to _need_ GPT so except on my Mac I use MBR to keep it
simple.

Secondarily: a single 4 *TB* partition? :-o

I wrote some guidance on partitioning here:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/Print/2010/06/23/reg_linux_guide_2

If it's 4TB then you must use GPT. MBR can't handle a disk that big.

The one bonus of GPT is that you do not have to deal with "primary"
and "extended" partitions and logical drives any more. That only
applies to MBR.

So, step 1. Put Win10 on it first. This makes it much easier to update
your BIOS even if nothing else. You don't need a licence key or
anything and the ISO is a free download from microsoft.com

Make Windows' partition a fairly small part of such a big disk, e.g. 128 GB.

It will make some of its own Windows black magic volumes. Something like:

[#1 - EFI system partition]
[#2 - Windows system reserved]
[#3 - Windows C drive]

You can then shrink #3 if needed and make in addition:

[#4 - BIOS boot for Grub]
[#5 - Linux root] -- 64 GB is huge
[#6 - 2nd Linux root] for experimenting/disaster recovery
[#7 - Linux home] All the rest of the space, leaving 2x RAM for swap]
[#8 - Linux swap] at the end of the disk

That is what I would suggest as a reasonable use of so much space.

Installing Windows will also highlight any possible hardware problems.

> I just used the (k)ubuntu installer for LVM and encryption.

Wow. OK. Well, I strongly suggest following the advice of people here
and trying to keep things as simple and "vanilla" as possible when it
comes to fancy partitioning systems, LVM, encryption, etc.

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Filesystem corruption (was: wiped disk - no longer bootable)

Volker Wysk
In reply to this post by ubuntu-users mailing list
Am Mittwoch, 10. Juli 2019, 11:50:56 CEST schrieb Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-
users:
> >I haven't touched the BIOS. I also couldn't find an option to restore
> >the BIOS from within the BIOS. How do you restore/upgarde the BIOS?
>
> That depends on the mobo/BIOS. When replacing the battery you usually
> should shortcut two pins to clear everything. Then all settings are
> lost, but the BIOS is still the old BIOS.

I don't have to skill to do that. The battery has been replaced in the
computer shop, where I brought the machine.  I don't know where to look for
the battery, or what pins to shortcut...

> To replace the BIOS modern
> mobos, even 10 years old mobos, usually provide an option via USB, if
> you should have bad luck, then you need a Windows install or at least a
> DOS live media. You could download the BIOS (update) and a user manual
> from the mobo vendor's homepage.

What does "option via usb" mean? The mobo downloading the upgrade from an USB
stick? I've looked around in the BIOS, but haven't seen anything like that.

I also don't know the mobo vendor. There is printed "ASUS M5A7BLLE", or
something like this, on it. It's hard to read. Is that the vendor and model
number?

I don't have Windows, never had.

But could it really be the BIOS, being defective?

I have a different (comparatively small) problem with the BIOS: It doesn't
boot from the first HDD/SSD. There only comes an empty screen with a blinking
cursor. Only when you open the mobo's boot menu, you can select the boot
device and then it boots fine.

Bye
Volker



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Re: Filesystem corruption (was: wiped disk - no longer bootable)

Volker Wysk
Zitat von Volker Wysk <[hidden email]>:
> I have a different (comparatively small) problem with the BIOS: It doesn't
> boot from the first HDD/SSD. There only comes an empty screen with a blinking
> cursor. Only when you open the mobo's boot menu, you can select the boot
> device and then it boots fine.

... the first hard disk (where the MBR is placed) being the first one  
in the boot menu's list.

Bye


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Re: wiped disk - no longer bootable

ubuntu-users mailing list
In reply to this post by Mike Marchywka
On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 10:28:54 +0000, Mike Marchywka wrote:

>On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 11:45:05AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf via
>ubuntu-users wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 07:56:20 +0000, Mike Marchywka wrote:  
>> >On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 09:08:35AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf via
>> >ubuntu-users wrote:  
>> >> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 19:08:21 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:    
>> >> >That mobo was simply not repairable because my hot air tools were
>> >> >burning the foil off the board on one side while trying to
>> >> >telegraph enough heat to the other, inaccessable side of the
>> >> >board to free the defective caps.    
>> >>
>> >> It's possible to heat both sides, unfortunately the VIAs of
>> >> multilayer PCBs tend to be allergic to too much heat, so it's a
>> >> game of pure chance.    
>> >
>> >Did these guys go lead free or you know the alloy/ melting point?
>> >How hard is it to get to both sides?
>> >I guess you could hack up the caps, maybe just with pliers,  leaving
>> >just wire and through the holes but that would be a huge mess. Then
>> >just grab the remaining wire with needle nose pliers and
>> >pull it while heating.    
>>
>> The heat isn't evenly spread. Even if you try to vacuum of the solder
>> with a professional unsoldering station, you probably would pull the
>> remaining wire and the VIA or as Gene already mentioned, you burn
>> the  
>
>Unsoldering a ground plane may be a problem but it gets worse if the
>melting temp of the solder has increased- curious what
>they wave solder these days. Eutectic Pb/Sn would be great but
>the new alloys may even have issues with their interactions
>with the board metal- maybe making them more prone to rip on
>desoldering. For that matter maybe even the flux chemistry matter.
>Even with tight tolerances the facotry inserted leads should be
>pretty straight and allow solder to flow in and then pull the thing
>out.
>I guess if it is a really odd solder chemistry maybe there is a
>selective etch that won't wreck everything nearby.

I don't know anything about the reputation of Liam's friend, but I know
a lot about Gene's and my own reputation. It doesn't matter that much,
since the friend I mentioned, is the kind of technician high-tech
companies likely would hire to unsolder the components from the crashed
space craft they hide in Area 51. Actually he was able to unsolder the
cpas from my power supply. However, he mentioned that it wasn't easy to
unsolder the caps. Btw. the friend told me that the odd
lead-free solder we know from the end of the 90th improved a lot. When
I was forced to use the first lead-free solder working for a studio
audio gear company I was p????d off. It was comparable to using good
solder, but using a 10 Deutsche Mark soldering gun from the
do-it-yourself store. We had solder on our hands, in our faces, but got
unacceptable solder joints.

>> PCB and you might damage the conductor path. I tried to solder out
>> borked caps of my mixing console's SMPS with my less good equipment,
>> a friend tried at home with a professional unsoldering station from
>> Weller, it didn't work. At work the friend could use very good
>> professional hot air equipment and he was able to replace the caps,
>> but it wasn't easy to do.


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Re: wiped disk - no longer bootable

Mike Marchywka
On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 02:15:34PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf via ubuntu-users wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 10:28:54 +0000, Mike Marchywka wrote:
> >On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 11:45:05AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf via
> >ubuntu-users wrote:
> >> On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 07:56:20 +0000, Mike Marchywka wrote:  
> >> >On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 09:08:35AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf via
> >> >ubuntu-users wrote:  
> >> >> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 19:08:21 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:    
> >> >> >That mobo was simply not repairable because my hot air tools were
> >> >> >burning the foil off the board on one side while trying to
> >> >> >telegraph enough heat to the other, inaccessable side of the
> >> >> >board to free the defective caps.    
> >> >>
> >> >> It's possible to heat both sides, unfortunately the VIAs of
> >> >> multilayer PCBs tend to be allergic to too much heat, so it's a
> >> >> game of pure chance.    
> >> >
> >> >Did these guys go lead free or you know the alloy/ melting point?
> >> >How hard is it to get to both sides?
> >> >I guess you could hack up the caps, maybe just with pliers,  leaving
> >> >just wire and through the holes but that would be a huge mess. Then
> >> >just grab the remaining wire with needle nose pliers and
> >> >pull it while heating.    
> >>
> >> The heat isn't evenly spread. Even if you try to vacuum of the solder
> >> with a professional unsoldering station, you probably would pull the
> >> remaining wire and the VIA or as Gene already mentioned, you burn
> >> the  
> >
> >Unsoldering a ground plane may be a problem but it gets worse if the
> >melting temp of the solder has increased- curious what
> >they wave solder these days. Eutectic Pb/Sn would be great but
> >the new alloys may even have issues with their interactions
> >with the board metal- maybe making them more prone to rip on
> >desoldering. For that matter maybe even the flux chemistry matter.
> >Even with tight tolerances the facotry inserted leads should be
> >pretty straight and allow solder to flow in and then pull the thing
> >out.
> >I guess if it is a really odd solder chemistry maybe there is a
> >selective etch that won't wreck everything nearby.
>
> I don't know anything about the reputation of Liam's friend, but I know
> a lot about Gene's and my own reputation. It doesn't matter that much,
> since the friend I mentioned, is the kind of technician high-tech
> companies likely would hire to unsolder the components from the crashed
> space craft they hide in Area 51. Actually he was able to unsolder the
> cpas from my power supply. However, he mentioned that it wasn't easy to
> unsolder the caps. Btw. the friend told me that the odd
> lead-free solder we know from the end of the 90th improved a lot. When
> I was forced to use the first lead-free solder working for a studio
> audio gear company I was p????d off. It was comparable to using good
> solder, but using a 10 Deutsche Mark soldering gun from the
> do-it-yourself store. We had solder on our hands, in our faces, but got
> unacceptable solder joints.

Lead is a great material for solder but there is no single
"lead free" product. At least with plumbing, which is  
copper to copper, Sn/Sb is popular and some Bi alloys
were thought to be unreliable. Ag alloys often having higher
temps and Cu may be better able to interdiffuse. And then
there are changes in fluxes. No sure if rosin core is compatible
with everything now.  I did notice the last time I watched a plumber
he was soldering with MAPP gas, much hotter than propane.

No one is drinking circuit boards so I thought they kept the
lead there. If you look at overall junk creation by
making repair impossible you can see even with green
technologies there are a lot of tradeoffs...




>
> >> PCB and you might damage the conductor path. I tried to solder out
> >> borked caps of my mixing console's SMPS with my less good equipment,
> >> a friend tried at home with a professional unsoldering station from
> >> Weller, it didn't work. At work the friend could use very good
> >> professional hot air equipment and he was able to replace the caps,
> >> but it wasn't easy to do.
>
>
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